Evolution 'not established truth'

Full story: GoErie.com 9,177
Public schools should teach established truth. Evolution is not established truth. Full Story

“I am Sisyphus”

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#4678 Nov 21, 2008
Wilson wrote:
<quoted text>
Simply put, life "emerged" from dead chemicals - all by itself.
Fancier words noadays but do you think that's new?
Wilson

I have reminded people countless times in countless forums but here I go again.

There is no CLEAR difference between "living" matter and "dead". It is the same matter. What we call "life" is something of an abstract idea. We think we know it when we see it and that it is clearly different from what is not "living". But exactly where this point is.

Is life defined by the complexity of the chemistry?
By the ability to replicate themselves?
By the ability to have more than one process occurring at a time? By having DNA? RNA?
Is life defined by the ability to evolve?
The ability to respond to an environment?

When you think you have answers to all these test your assumptions against complex "non-living" biochemicals and very simple "living" organisms.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20249616/

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20249628/
(Harvard is probably about 5 years ahead of schedule)

“I am Sisyphus”

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#4679 Nov 21, 2008
once_more wrote:
<quoted text>.
.
Yep, they say lots of things they can't prove.

:)

If you are talking about fundies NOTHING they say can be proved.

Science simply studies nature and reports what it observes. If you don't like science then you don't like nature. If you don't like nature then you don't like god.

Why do you hate God?
once_more

Corning, CA

#4680 Nov 21, 2008
Dogen wrote:
<quoted text>
What is the cause of god?
That's not the issue Nuggin. The Pope is asking: WHAT is the "cause" of evolution(gee that sounds familiar). He knows Nature IS NOT causation.
.
And you can be sure he's got the educational background to back that up.
.
Now he says it's God and your going to prove him wrong by saying.....WHAT ??
.
:)

“I am Sisyphus”

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#4681 Nov 21, 2008
once_more wrote:
<quoted text>

"This ... inevitably leads to a question that goes beyond science ... where did this rationality come from?" he asked. Answering his own question, he said it came from the "creative reason" of God."
.
He knows there must be a mechanism in order for evolution to occur and he also knows that science and science illiterates like you; DON'T!
.
:/
You like quoting things out of context and interpreting things in a way that suits you regardless of if they support your thesis or not.

The current pope, as shown in the longer and in context quotes I have shown you, accepts evolution but believes god is the driver of evolution. What would you expect a pope who respects science to believe?

This goes back to, based on the observed evidence of your posts, that you are poorly educated with regards to science and do not seem to understand what you are reading. An additional example is that you continue to use what I sometimes refer to as 'Idiot Logic' or (during political season)'Rush Limbaughian Ill-Logic'. I don't expect you to go take a class in formal logic but you should understand common fallacies and why they are fallacious.

You could review:
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/

The following fallicies are some of the ones I have seen you make.

# Appeal to Belief
# Begging the Question
# Burden of Proof
# Confusing Cause and Effect
# Division
# False Dilemma
# Genetic Fallacy
# Ignoring A Common Cause
# Poisoning the Well
# Post Hoc (a favorite of yours)
# Red Herring (smoke screen)
# Relativist Fallacy
# Slippery Slope
# Special Pleading
# Straw Man

You have made others but these stand out.

Note: a good argument can be presented in a fallacious way so much of the time it simple is a matter of how you present the evidence.

Often a BAD argument will immediately expose itself if one tries to reword it into a logical argument.

Another good site to work on building logical arguments from the ground up is:
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/mathew...

“I am Sisyphus”

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#4682 Nov 21, 2008
once_more wrote:
<quoted text>
That's not the issue Nuggin. The Pope is asking: WHAT is the "cause" of evolution(gee that sounds familiar). He knows Nature IS NOT causation.
And you KNOW what the Pope knows. That is outstanding. I have worked in mental health for the better part of 20 years and I can't even read the minds of the people in the room with me.
Back to the point: Nature IS causation. Since the material (aka Natural) universe came into existence every action in that universe has had a consequence of another action. If you want to have the position that god is the cause of the universe and all that is in it, that is just peachy by me. However I am sticking the cause of god in your lap. Every action we have ever observed has SOME cause. But the idea that there has to be a beginning cause is not logical. Why WOULD there be a beginning cause? z is caused by y. Y is caused by x,..... all the way back to b being caused by A. At that point you say AH HA!!!! A is the cause of all things that follow so therefore A=god. In fact there in absolutely no LOGICAL REASON to believe that A was not cause by another, yet unnamed, event. If you want God to equal A, that again is dandy. But then what causes that A is in your court and it sits there till you deal with it.
once_more wrote:
<quoted text>.
And you can be sure he's got the educational background to back that up.


Elementary. First I assume that you are NOT a card carrying Roman Catholic so it is safe to say you do not accept the Popes religious authority. So you have chosen a false hero who does not really represent your view. This is Appeal to Authority. Now if you were genuine and accepted the popes authority in religious matters then this actually would not be a fallacy. So now, if Fidel Castro made the statement you quoted you would probably not be to hip to use the quote. Even if Castro was an expert on science (which he isn't) you would not quote him.
What is in YOUR back ground that supports YOU as being an authority on any of this? Certainly your arguments do not do much to support themselves. Why do you (and allegedly the Pope) have this great scientific knowledge that literally millions of scientists who spend an average of 9 years in college while learning from the best teachers, reading the best books, critiquing publications, conducting and writing up research of their own, do not have?
Your just that smart?
Unlikely based on the evidence.
You don't understand science, are inconsistent in your response to theistic evolutionists (acceptable for the pope, unacceptable for you), do not spell well, concoct (or more likely regurgitate) arguments that do not follow from premises to conclusion. Like someone screaming vulgarities in church these things draw rapid attention to you in much the same way. And that is not good.
once_more

Corning, CA

#4683 Nov 21, 2008
Dogen wrote:
<quoted text>
You like quoting things out of context and interpreting things in a way that suits you regardless of if they support your thesis or not.
The current pope, as shown in the longer and in context quotes I have shown you, accepts evolution but believes god is the driver of evolution. What would you expect a pope who respects science to believe?
Context has nothing to do with it. The Pope IS in fact questioning what the "cause" of evolution is when he says:
.
"Just who is this 'nature' or 'evolution' as (an active) subject? It doesn't exist at all!" the Pope said.
.
Make no mistake about it; he knows science, and by extension yourself, does not have an answer.
.
He then he concludes by saying "the cause" is god.
.
"This ... inevitably leads to a question that goes beyond science ... where did this rationality come from?" he asked. Answering his own question, he said it came from the "creative reason" of God."
.
With that statement he is no longer referring to or expressing a belief in the scientific TOE.
.
:/

Level 1

Since: Nov 08

Anniston, AL

#4684 Nov 21, 2008
once_more wrote:
<quoted text>
Yeah right. Too bad YOU weren't around 3 1/2 Billion years ago to help out. Then YOU could have been the cause.....but YOU weren't ;; and you aren't.
.
:)
Why would I need to be there. Are you really this dense? Or do you need a god for every single chemical reaction that occurs every second?

“I am Sisyphus”

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#4685 Nov 21, 2008
once_more wrote:
<quoted text>
Context has nothing to do with it. The Pope IS in fact questioning what the "cause" of evolution is when he says:
.
"Just who is this 'nature' or 'evolution' as (an active) subject? It doesn't exist at all!" the Pope said.
.
Make no mistake about it; he knows science, and by extension yourself, does not have an answer.
.
He then he concludes by saying "the cause" is god.
.
"This ... inevitably leads to a question that goes beyond science ... where did this rationality come from?" he asked. Answering his own question, he said it came from the "creative reason" of God."
.
With that statement he is no longer referring to or expressing a belief in the scientific TOE.
.
:/

If you had read the rest of the quotes the Pope fully agrees with the ToE up to the point where he feels there is a need for god to insert his will. The other drivers of evolution are already in place. So now we have two of the last two popes who are essentually theistic evolutionists.

While at the same time millions of scientists who study:

Anatomy
Anthropology
Archaeology
Bacteriology
Biochemistry
Biology
Botany
Chemistry
Ecology
Embryology
Endocrinology
Entomology
Enzymology
Genetics
Geochemistry
Geography
Geology
Geophysics
Histology
Hydrology
Ichthyology
Linguistics
Medicine
Meteorology
Microbiology
Mineralogy
Mycology
Neurology
Nutrition
Oceanography
Paleontology
Pathology
Petrology
Pharmacology
Physics
Physiology
Radiology
Volcanology
Zoology

And all of these area have produced support for the Theory of Evolution as well as the FoE (which you seem to accept as you have not lifted a finger to argue against it).
once_more

Corning, CA

#4686 Nov 21, 2008
Dogen wrote:
<quoted text>
And you KNOW what the Pope knows. That is outstanding.
.
I know what he said; and he is definitely mocking the idea that "nature" and "evolution"(as an active subject) are the cause of anything.
.
If you don't get it, it's because you don't want to.
.
Back to the point: Nature IS causation.
.
Oh good; so then you should be able to explain what the "cause" of evolution is. I'm all ears.
.
:)

Level 1

Since: Nov 08

Anniston, AL

#4687 Nov 21, 2008
once_more wrote:
<quoted text>
.
Oh good; so then you should be able to explain what the "cause" of evolution is. I'm all ears.
.
:)
Already been given to you multiple times. You have yet to tell us why these are not the cause other than to make some vague references to "events" as if that makes a difference.

Or you could also describe for us the process of adaptation and how it differs from evolution.
once_more

Corning, CA

#4688 Nov 21, 2008
Erasmus05 wrote:
<quoted text>
Why would I need to be there. Are you really this dense? Or do you need a god for every single chemical reaction that occurs every second?
The only one that's dense here is you. None of this rambling nonsense has anything to do with the fact that you HAVE NOT and CAN NOT give an actual cause for evolution.
.
Even the Pope is asking the same question. The same pope that evolutionists on these threads embrace as a "believer" in tTOE; even though he has never said any such thing.
.
:/
once_more

Corning, CA

#4689 Nov 21, 2008
Dogen wrote:
<quoted text>
If you had read the rest of the quotes the Pope fully agrees with the ToE up to the point where he feels there is a need for god to insert his will. The other drivers of evolution are already in place.
Wrong again. In his most recent book released in April 2008 he says the following:
.
"Benedict XVI, in his first extended reflections on evolution published as pope, says that Darwin's theory cannot be finally proven..."
.
"Benedict added that the immense time span that evolution covers made it impossible to conduct experiments in a controlled environment to finally verify or disprove the theory."
.
"We cannot haul 10,000 generations into the laboratory," he said."
These comments are definitely not those of a Pope who "fully agrees with" or embraces tTOE.
.
:/
once_more

Corning, CA

#4690 Nov 21, 2008
Erasmus05 wrote:
<quoted text>
Already been given to you multiple times. You have yet to tell us why these are not the cause other than to make some vague references to "events" as if that makes a difference.
I already answered that in post 4666 and you replied with some supersilious nonsense in post 4668.
.
:~

Level 7

Since: Sep 07

Granada Hills, CA

#4691 Nov 21, 2008
Wilson wrote:
<quoted text>
HOhio,
Let's compare!
I know that a house is evidence of intelligent design.
I know that something much more complicated, like the human brain, is evidence of design by a Super-intelligence.
I know that symbiotic relationships in nature and an ecoSYSTEM that renews itself, demonstrates a mind that is incomparable.
I know that the fossil record does NOT support evolution.
I know that life could not have begun on its own, amply demonstrated by the Miller/Urey experiments.
I know that mutations do NOT improve any organism, making them superior to the natural type, amply demonstrated by the Max Planck experiments.
I know that evolution is not amenable to experimentation, but is based solely upon belief.
I know that natural selection is a myth.
I know that evolution is a belief system - a religion.
I know that research on evolution is done primarily for the money.
I know animals produce only their own “kind” and can never “become” another, regardless of the duration.
I know that there is a God in Heaven who will soon take over rulership of the earth.
I know that God made the human body perfect and it has been corrupted by sin.
I know that anyone who believes that we humans are responsible for our own existence is an idiot.
Wait - my bad! I should have asked you.
Are we humans responsible for our own existence?
YES!______
NO!_______
Geez! I better stop now. Rile me up and I’ll show you just how much more I know.
Now, Hohio - what do you think you really know?
Wilson
I know you are wrong on every count.

Level 7

Since: Sep 07

Granada Hills, CA

#4692 Nov 21, 2008
Wilson wrote:
+++Wilson
Irrelevant, immaterial and not relating to the matter under discussion.
This is why no one listens to you, Wilson.

You ask for an example. We give you one. You declare it irrelevant.

Why don't you explain how Buddhism is irrelevant to your request for another religion which has rules which can only be "detected" by a higher being?

Level 7

Since: Sep 07

Granada Hills, CA

#4693 Nov 21, 2008
once_more wrote:
<quoted text>
Ref: post 4670. What do you want me to support?
.
:)
The claim that God was this alleged "driving force".

Level 7

Since: Sep 07

Granada Hills, CA

#4694 Nov 21, 2008
once_more wrote:
<quoted text>
That's not the issue Nuggin. The Pope is asking: WHAT is the "cause" of evolution(gee that sounds familiar). He knows Nature IS NOT causation.
Well, first off - that's Dogen, not Nuggin. I was watching "Role Models" which was a very funny flick.

Now, I'm back.

I'm asking you what is this "cause" you keep going on and on about.

You keep telling me what ISN'T the cause. That would be a near infinite list. Let's shorten it.

What is the cause?
once_more wrote:
<
Now he says it's God and your going to prove him wrong by saying.....WHAT ??
I'm not having an argument with him. He's not posting to this thread.

Do YOU say it's God? Yes or no?

Level 7

Since: Sep 07

Granada Hills, CA

#4695 Nov 21, 2008
once_more wrote:
He then he concludes by saying "the cause" is god.
Who cares? He's not posting here.

You are.

Do YOU say this? If not, then drop it.

Level 7

Since: Sep 07

Granada Hills, CA

#4696 Nov 21, 2008
once_more wrote:
<quoted text>
The only one that's dense here is you. None of this rambling nonsense has anything to do with the fact that you HAVE NOT and CAN NOT give an actual cause for evolution.
So you have claimed 1,000s of times now.
However, YOU have not and can not give an example of the "cause" for ANYTHING.
Since YOU can't provide the cause for ANYTHING, why should we be held to a higher standard than you?
I've even given YOU the freedom to pick ANYTHING you want to present the cause for.
Since you fail to do so, we'll take that as an admission on your part that there is NO CAUSE.
Therefore, evolution exists in the same realm as everything else.
Cliff

Haines City, FL

#4697 Nov 21, 2008
nuggin lets calculate some odds some REAL odds.

For the big bang compression to have been there there would have to be several laws in place to allow that compression in itself. So where did those laws come from? The odds say impossible. literally. not even 1/infinity simply 0/infinity.

But you can give it that little "so what i wanna think it's real anyway" so tell me this. The evidence for God is so great, that all the the philosophies of science including scientific facts, theories, and half truths put together can't even begin to compare. but you still believe. Why? scvience has already proven the big bang never happened. and science also proved evolution never happened. but you still believe. why? and science never disproved God and Jesus Christ, but you still believe in evolution

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