Does a good God exist? Christopher Hitchens debates in Texas

Nov 17, 2010 Full story: Examiner.com 129

Do you like this story? A There's going to be a debate Nov. 18, deep in the heart of Texas, between noted atheist author Christopher Hitchens and Intelligent Design proponent William Dembski.

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“Religion is Superstition”

Since: Aug 08

Location hidden

#1 Nov 22, 2010
The chance of there both being a god and that god being good are about the same as that of Dembski not getting his metaphorical nuts battered, fried, and fed right back to him by Hitchens.

This contest is going to be rather lopsided and a complete disaster for Dembski, even if he manages to overstuff the audience with his idiotic supporters.

In other words, I expect Hitchens to completely own the creotard fraud.

Level 1

Since: Nov 08

Boise, ID

#2 Nov 22, 2010
Dembski: There is good in the world, therefore God.

Hitchens: There is also evil in the world.

Dembski: That doesn't count.

“Only a fool says he knows all.”

Since: Jun 10

United States

#3 Nov 22, 2010
You must first understand that if there is a creator of this world and everything in it, including us, then what he decides about anything is good. How can it be wrong? If He chooses someone or allows humans to go through hardship or death, since when do we, as His creation, have any right to say to the Creator that what he is doing is right or wrong? We don't. This is why Christians call their God merciful when he show kindness to them, because humans don't deserve anything one way or the other. We are only a creation. So no matter what you say about how evil, cruel, warlike, and judging God is, it won't matter. This is why God is GOOD no matter what happens. This is why Christians believe that we should always thank and praise God, not because God might change his mind and be kind to us but because he deserves it and He is kind enouph to allow humans exist. So why would he allow humans to hate Him or not believe in Him at all? Again, because the gift of freewill is part of his grace to us. So why allow death and evil in a world that is falling apart? Why not keep His world perfect in the way He created it in the first place? He has bigger plans. After all he is a designer, and He won't stop creating. After this world is gone, those who keep their faith will enjoy a much better Creation and enjoy the Designer. This why faith is more powerful then any so-called evidence that science seem to show. Because there is hope after death. Science how-ever isn't the enimy of faith. As a fact, it can be a tool to understand the designer and his handy work. It's the interpretation of scientific discoveries that might be wrong. Keep in mind that the war between Evolutionist and many kinds of Creationist isn't about science being right. The war is about who's interpretation is right.

“Religion is Superstition”

Since: Aug 08

Location hidden

#4 Nov 22, 2010
Aaron Weaver wrote:
You must first understand that if there is a creator of this world and everything in it, including us, then what he decides about anything is good. How can it be wrong? If He chooses someone or allows humans to go through hardship or death, since when do we, as His creation, have any right to say to the Creator that what he is doing is right or wrong? We don't. This is why Christians call their God merciful when he show kindness to them, because humans don't deserve anything one way or the other. We are only a creation. So no matter what you say about how evil, cruel, warlike, and judging God is, it won't matter. This is why God is GOOD no matter what happens. This is why Christians believe that we should always thank and praise God, not because God might change his mind and be kind to us but because he deserves it and He is kind enouph to allow humans exist. So why would he allow humans to hate Him or not believe in Him at all? Again, because the gift of freewill is part of his grace to us. So why allow death and evil in a world that is falling apart? Why not keep His world perfect in the way He created it in the first place? He has bigger plans. After all he is a designer, and He won't stop creating. After this world is gone, those who keep their faith will enjoy a much better Creation and enjoy the Designer. This why faith is more powerful then any so-called evidence that science seem to show. Because there is hope after death. Science how-ever isn't the enimy of faith. As a fact, it can be a tool to understand the designer and his handy work. It's the interpretation of scientific discoveries that might be wrong. Keep in mind that the war between Evolutionist and many kinds of Creationist isn't about science being right. The war is about who's interpretation is right.
You skipped over the part where you established that a god exists in the first place. You also skipped over the part where it was established that it was only one god, or a dozen, and what about the overwhelming majority of the TEN THOUSAND gods that man has invented, worshiped, eventually tossed aside, and ultimately forgotten over the last forty thousand years?

“What, me worry?”

Since: Mar 09

I'm a racist caricature!

#5 Nov 22, 2010
Aaron Weaver wrote:
You must first understand that if there is a creator of this world and everything in it, including us, then what he decides about anything is good. How can it be wrong? If He chooses someone or allows humans to go through hardship or death, since when do we, as His creation, have any right to say to the Creator that what he is doing is right or wrong? We don't. This is why Christians call their God merciful when he show kindness to them, because humans don't deserve anything one way or the other. We are only a creation. So no matter what you say about how evil, cruel, warlike, and judging God is, it won't matter. This is why God is GOOD no matter what happens. This is why Christians believe that we should always thank and praise God, not because God might change his mind and be kind to us but because he deserves it and He is kind enouph to allow humans exist. So why would he allow humans to hate Him or not believe in Him at all? Again, because the gift of freewill is part of his grace to us. So why allow death and evil in a world that is falling apart? Why not keep His world perfect in the way He created it in the first place? He has bigger plans. After all he is a designer, and He won't stop creating. After this world is gone, those who keep their faith will enjoy a much better Creation and enjoy the Designer. This why faith is more powerful then any so-called evidence that science seem to show. Because there is hope after death. Science how-ever isn't the enimy of faith. As a fact, it can be a tool to understand the designer and his handy work. It's the interpretation of scientific discoveries that might be wrong. Keep in mind that the war between Evolutionist and many kinds of Creationist isn't about science being right. The war is about who's interpretation is right.
1: You assume that such an entity can/does exist.

2: You assume that any decision made by such an entity must necessarily be good, without any kind of justification for that assumption.

3: You assume that any decision made by such an entity must necessarily be right (which means you accept the premise that might makes right).

4: If parents allow their children to drink bleach, even if by merely not stopping them from doing so, despite their knowledge that it is going to happen and is actually happening, they are convicted of neglect if not depraved indifference to human life. I can't imagine that anyone would say this would be considered a good thing, or could possibly be construed to be good. It appears we are more moral than your God. And, based on your words, we're more moral than you, too.

5: Do you think "God" is omniscient?

6: Do you think "God" gave us free will?

7: Is it possible to surprise "God" with your choices?

8: If a parent is considered by a child to be omnipotent and omniscient, and if that parent chooses to torment and terrorize that child, should the child grow up to understand that their parent is good or evil? I mean, that parent was kind enough to let the child live in the first place, and the parent has bigger plans for the child (child pornography, prostitution, welfare payments, shoplifting accomplice, etc.), and that parent won't stop making babies, so shouldn't that parent's activities be considered good?

9: Faith isn't more powerful than evidence; faith is more powerful than REASON. Just because you're unreasonable doesn't mean you're making headway.

10: How many ways do you have to twist reality to justify your God's advocacy of slavery, genocide, murder, rape, incest, infanticide, fratricide, misogyny, xenophobia, and the Bible's many internal inconsistencies and contradictions? Wouldn't it be easier, and more reasonable and rational, to accept reality than try to force reality to conform to the claims of a Bronze Age storybook?

“Wear white at night.”

Since: Jun 09

Albuquerque

#6 Nov 22, 2010
Aaron Weaver wrote:
...Keep in mind that the war between Evolutionist and many kinds of Creationist isn't about science being right. The war is about who's interpretation is right.
Science has evidence, Creationists have nothing.

“There is no such thing”

Level 3

Since: May 08

as a reasonable person

#7 Nov 23, 2010
Good and evil are just different points of view.

“Religion is Superstition”

Since: Aug 08

Location hidden

#8 Nov 23, 2010
So who was the gutless coward that tagged me as 'clueless' and 'offtopic' but hadn't the spine to state why?
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#9 Nov 23, 2010
Christopher Pearsoll wrote:
So who was the gutless coward that tagged me as 'clueless' and 'offtopic' but hadn't the spine to state why?
Probably Aaron. Anyone or anything that contradicts him is mean. As do pertinent questions, like my question about the "scientific theory" of ID/C which he avoids like the plague.
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#10 Nov 23, 2010
Aaron Weaver wrote:
You must first understand that if there is a creator of this world and everything in it, including us, then what he decides about anything is good. How can it be wrong? If He chooses someone or allows humans to go through hardship or death, since when do we, as His creation, have any right to say to the Creator that what he is doing is right or wrong? We don't. This is why Christians call their God merciful when he show kindness to them, because humans don't deserve anything one way or the other. We are only a creation. So no matter what you say about how evil, cruel, warlike, and judging God is, it won't matter. This is why God is GOOD no matter what happens. This is why Christians believe that we should always thank and praise God, not because God might change his mind and be kind to us but because he deserves it and He is kind enouph to allow humans exist. So why would he allow humans to hate Him or not believe in Him at all? Again, because the gift of freewill is part of his grace to us. So why allow death and evil in a world that is falling apart? Why not keep His world perfect in the way He created it in the first place? He has bigger plans. After all he is a designer, and He won't stop creating. After this world is gone, those who keep their faith will enjoy a much better Creation and enjoy the Designer. This why faith is more powerful then any so-called evidence that science seem to show. Because there is hope after death. Science how-ever isn't the enimy of faith. As a fact, it can be a tool to understand the designer and his handy work. It's the interpretation of scientific discoveries that might be wrong. Keep in mind that the war between Evolutionist and many kinds of Creationist isn't about science being right. The war is about who's interpretation is right.
So what you're saying is, might is right.

Thanks for openly admitting that you don't have any scientific evidence to back up any of your baseless claims. I take it then that you have just destroyed your earlier claims that there was a "scientific theory" of ID/Creationism.

p.s. Preaching bores the crapp out of us. Please do that in the religion forum.

Level 1

Since: Dec 06

Saint Petersburg, FL

#11 Nov 23, 2010
Aaron Weaver wrote:
You must first understand that if there is a creator of this world and everything in it, including us, then what he decides about anything is good. How can it be wrong? If He chooses someone or allows humans to go through hardship or death, since when do we, as His creation, have any right to say to the Creator that what he is doing is right or wrong? We don't. This is why Christians call their God merciful when he show kindness to them, because humans don't deserve anything one way or the other. We are only a creation. So no matter what you say about how evil, cruel, warlike, and judging God is, it won't matter. This is why God is GOOD no matter what happens. This is why Christians believe that we should always thank and praise God, not because God might change his mind and be kind to us but because he deserves it and He is kind enouph to allow humans exist. So why would he allow humans to hate Him or not believe in Him at all? Again, because the gift of freewill is part of his grace to us. So why allow death and evil in a world that is falling apart? Why not keep His world perfect in the way He created it in the first place? He has bigger plans. After all he is a designer, and He won't stop creating. After this world is gone, those who keep their faith will enjoy a much better Creation and enjoy the Designer. This why faith is more powerful then any so-called evidence that science seem to show. Because there is hope after death. Science how-ever isn't the enimy of faith. As a fact, it can be a tool to understand the designer and his handy work. It's the interpretation of scientific discoveries that might be wrong. Keep in mind that the war between Evolutionist and many kinds of Creationist isn't about science being right. The war is about who's interpretation is right.
Sorry, but you didn't describe "good", you just described a version of "might makes right."

Level 1

Since: Dec 06

Saint Petersburg, FL

#12 Nov 23, 2010
The Dude wrote:
<quoted text>
So what you're saying is, might is right.
Thanks for openly admitting that you don't have any scientific evidence to back up any of your baseless claims. I take it then that you have just destroyed your earlier claims that there was a "scientific theory" of ID/Creationism.
p.s. Preaching bores the crapp out of us. Please do that in the religion forum.
Should have read a bit further before responding, I had the same thought about "might makes right." He's not the only creationist to push such a view. Sola, in another thread, once stated that we can't say that her god is wrong for all of his brutal acts because he is god and thus who would be able to hold him accountable anyway. It's amazing that they don't see the moral bankruptcy of such a view.

“What, me worry?”

Since: Mar 09

I'm a racist caricature!

#13 Nov 23, 2010
Dennis2 wrote:
<quoted text>
Should have read a bit further before responding, I had the same thought about "might makes right." He's not the only creationist to push such a view. Sola, in another thread, once stated that we can't say that her god is wrong for all of his brutal acts because he is god and thus who would be able to hold him accountable anyway. It's amazing that they don't see the moral bankruptcy of such a view.
It's the same rationalization they use for explaining away all the genocide: God is mysterious, God is all-powerful, God is good enough to let us live so how dare we judge him, God's decisions are all perfect and just and right, etc.

No matter that if a human did the same things they'd be seen as a monster.

Level 1

Since: Dec 06

Saint Petersburg, FL

#14 Nov 23, 2010
LowellGuy wrote:
<quoted text>
It's the same rationalization they use for explaining away all the genocide: God is mysterious, God is all-powerful, God is good enough to let us live so how dare we judge him, God's decisions are all perfect and just and right, etc.
No matter that if a human did the same things they'd be seen as a monster.
My favorite part was that Sola had made that statement about no one being able to hold her god accountable, within a few posts after having stated that morals are absolute. The amazing thing is she doesn't seem to understand how that is a contradiction.

“Nihil curo de ista tua stulta ”

Since: May 08

Orlando

#15 Nov 23, 2010
Christopher Pearsoll wrote:
<quoted text>
You skipped over the part where you established that a god exists in the first place. You also skipped over the part where it was established that it was only one god, or a dozen, and what about the overwhelming majority of the TEN THOUSAND gods that man has invented, worshiped, eventually tossed aside, and ultimately forgotten over the last forty thousand years?
Well, he DID say "IF" God exists.....

So Aaron: What if God "DOES NOT" exist?

Or exists on a completly different reality than what you were led to believe?

Level 1

Since: Nov 08

Boise, ID

#16 Nov 23, 2010
Hitchen's overarching argument was that our universe looks exactly like a universe without a creator or a god/s. There is both good and evil, and the universe appears to be indifferent to our existence.
The Dude

UK

#17 Nov 23, 2010
Dennis2 wrote:
<quoted text>
Should have read a bit further before responding, I had the same thought about "might makes right." He's not the only creationist to push such a view. Sola, in another thread, once stated that we can't say that her god is wrong for all of his brutal acts because he is god and thus who would be able to hold him accountable anyway. It's amazing that they don't see the moral bankruptcy of such a view.
Funny thing is I agree with them it would be a bit problematic to hold such an entity accountable. We simply just point out that if God is just like how they describe, it is an evil s.o.b.

“Church of Latter Day Heathens”

Since: Feb 09

Austin, Tx

#18 Nov 23, 2010
The Dude wrote:
<quoted text>
Probably Aaron. Anyone or anything that contradicts him is mean. As do pertinent questions, like my question about the "scientific theory" of ID/C which he avoids like the plague.
Been away a while. But yes I bet Aaron was the evil doer. Everyone else here knows ToE to be true. So none of us would do it.

“Is that all you've got?”

Since: Jun 10

Location hidden

#19 Nov 23, 2010
Lil Ticked wrote:
Good and evil are just different points of view.
I'm sure Charles Manson would agree with you.

“There is no such thing”

Level 3

Since: May 08

as a reasonable person

#20 Nov 24, 2010
nanoanomaly wrote:
<quoted text>I'm sure Charles Manson would agree with you.
If it were up to me I would free Charles Manson.

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