non religious scientists oppose darwinism

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ghost

Moulton, UK

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#1
Nov 20, 2011
 
This is a list of non-religious scientists who have all spoken out against the Darwinian mechanisms of evolution:

Marcel-Paul Schutzenberger,
Michael Denton,
Michael Pitman,
David Berlinski,
Periannan Senapathy, Chandra Wickramasighe,
Murray Eden,
Stanly Salthe,
Christian Schwabe,
Gerald Kerkut,
Lime-De-Faria,
Pierre Grasse,
Soren Lovtrop,
Fred Hoyle,
Stuart Pivar,
Guy Berthault,
Roberto Fondi,
Wolfgang Smith,
Giuseppe Sermonti
Edward Sisson,
Richard Sternberg,
Frank Tipler,
Brian Goodwin,
Peter Saunders.

Most of the above scientists are biologists and or qualifed phd in sciences or mathematics.

As you can see a number of well qualifed scientists have questioned the Darwinian mechanisms of evolution (natural selection and random mutation).

This does not make these men or women creationists for questioning the Darwinian mechanisms of evolution. Each scientist from the above are all firm evolutionists. Just there is a still a big debate in evolution over which mechanisms are driving evolution.

“Maccullochella macquariensis”

Since: May 08

Melbourne, Australia

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#2
Nov 20, 2011
 
Yet another Shadow sock puppet.

A very impressive list, 24 entries, some of them even biologists. Wow.

</sarcasm mode>

How does that compare with the number of scientists called [url=http://ncse.com/taking-ac tion/project-steve]Steve[/url] that agree with evolution? Oh, bummer for you, there are 1179 as of 7 Nov 2011.

I guess you lose, yet again.

“Maccullochella macquariensis”

Since: May 08

Melbourne, Australia

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#3
Nov 20, 2011
 
Damn Topix, why does it not follow even the most basic conventions of Internet forums?

The link is http://ncse.com/taking-action/project-steve
learn to read

Moulton, UK

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#4
Nov 20, 2011
 
bluenose obviously cant read, all the scientists in this thread agree with evolution.

bluenose obviously doesn't know the difference between accepting evolution and accepting darwinism.

“I am Sisyphus”

Since: Nov 07

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#5
Nov 20, 2011
 

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ghost wrote:
This is a list of non-religious scientists who have all spoken out against the Darwinian mechanisms of evolution:
Marcel-Paul Schutzenberger,
Michael Denton,
Michael Pitman,
David Berlinski,
Periannan Senapathy, Chandra Wickramasighe,
Murray Eden,
Stanly Salthe,
Christian Schwabe,
Gerald Kerkut,
Lime-De-Faria,
Pierre Grasse,
Soren Lovtrop,
Fred Hoyle,
Stuart Pivar,
Guy Berthault,
Roberto Fondi,
Wolfgang Smith,
Giuseppe Sermonti
Edward Sisson,
Richard Sternberg,
Frank Tipler,
Brian Goodwin,
Peter Saunders.
Most of the above scientists are biologists and or qualifed phd in sciences or mathematics.
As you can see a number of well qualifed scientists have questioned the Darwinian mechanisms of evolution (natural selection and random mutation).
This does not make these men or women creationists for questioning the Darwinian mechanisms of evolution. Each scientist from the above are all firm evolutionists. Just there is a still a big debate in evolution over which mechanisms are driving evolution.

I have no idea where you got this list, but it is wrong. I know about a third of the names on the list and most of them are (or were since most are dead) very religious.

Second, some of the others do not disagree with evolution but are more of a theistic evolutionist bent.

Third, at least one person on the list (Periannan Senapathy) has his own theory of evolution (which has been discredited).

I hope this helps. You might want to screen stuff like this before you repost it.

“Nihil curo de ista tua stulta ”

Since: May 08

Orlando

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#6
Nov 20, 2011
 
ghost wrote:
This is a list of non-religious scientists who have all spoken out against the Darwinian mechanisms of evolution:
I'll see your list of 24 individuals (many/most of whom should not belong on your list as described above), and RAISE you 12,763 Christian Clergy (as of 11/20/11).

"We the undersigned, Christian clergy from many different traditions, believe that the timeless truths of the Bible and the discoveries of modern science may comfortably coexist. We believe that the theory of evolution is a foundational scientific truth, one that has stood up to rigorous scrutiny and upon which much of human knowledge and achievement rests. To reject this truth or to treat it as “one theory among others” is to deliberately embrace scientific ignorance and transmit such ignorance to our children. We believe that among God’s good gifts are human minds capable of critical thought and that the failure to fully employ this gift is a rejection of the will of our Creator. To argue that God’s loving plan of salvation for humanity precludes the full employment of the God-given faculty of reason is to attempt to limit God, an act of hubris. We urge school board members to preserve the integrity of the science curriculum by affirming the teaching of the theory of evolution as a core component of human knowledge. We ask that science remain science and that religion remain religion, two very different, but complementary, forms of truth."

Christian Clergy Letter
http://www.theclergyletterproject.org/Christi...
Non Darwinian evolution

Moulton, UK

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#7
Nov 20, 2011
 

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"I have no idea where you got this list, but it is wrong. I know about a third of the names on the list and most of them are (or were since most are dead) very religious."

Just more lies, do your research and you will find all of them are agnostic/atheist except wolfgang smith who has catholic leanings:

Marcel-Paul Schutzenberger - was an atheist, wrote a book on mathematics debunking natural selection and random mutation.

Michael Denton - agnostic, wrote the book evolution a theory in crisis. Denton believes evolution is directed, hes a non darwinian evolutionist.

Michael Pitman, non religious deist, wrote a book called adam and evolution which claimed macroevolution has never happened on earth.

David Berlinski - agnostic, has written a couple of books questioning the darwinian mechanisms of evolution.

Periannan Senapathy - atheist came up with his own theory of origins called the independent birth or organisms which rejects common descent.

Chandra Wickramasighe - is an atheist who argues for an etnernal universe and directed panspermia, has written a number of books attacking darwins theory of evolution, instead he claims evolution is driven by genetic novetly from space.

Murray Eden, agnostic, claims based on mathetmatical grounds that darwins mechanisms of evolution could not of worked.

Stanly Salthe, agnostic.- has criticised darwinism in his latest books and advocates non-darwinian evolution.

Christian Schwabe - is an atheist who argues for eternal life (biogenesis) and that all organisms on earth came from chemical pools rejecting common descent.

Gerald Kerkut, agnostic, critic of neo-darwinism claimed that microevolution and macroevolution are different.

Lime-De-Faria,- is an agnostic who wrote a very detailed book on evolution which claims darwins theory of evolution is wrong and that evolution happenes without natural selection.

Pierre Grasse, was an agnostic and wrote a book defending lamarck, and attacking the mechanisms on neo-darwinism. he claims mutations do not cause any kind of evolution.

Soren Lovtrop - an atheist who came up with the macromutation theory opposed to the gradualism of darwin.

Fred Hoyle - an atheist known for his directed panspermia and evolution from space and criticism of darwins theory of evolution.

Stuart Pivar - an agnostic who challegened natural selection in recent publications.

Guy Berthault, agnostic - claims he has evidence for a global flood.

Roberto Fondi,- agnostic, critic of darwinism.

Wolfgang Smith, physicist has attacked darwins mechanisms of evolution, fair play (he does have roman catholic leanings) though not displayed in his work.

Giuseppe Sermonti, agnostic and author of a book which attacks darwinism from page to page.

Edward Sisson, agnostic - has written a number of papers criticising darwinism.

Richard Sternberg, agnostic - claims intelligent design along with evolution should be taught in schools

Frank Tipler, agnostic and physicist has criticised neodarwinism.

Brian Goodwin, agnostic, critic of the gene centric view of evolution, claimed that organisms as dynamic systems are the primary agents of creative evolutionary adaptation, has attacked natural selection in a number of his publications.

Peter Saunders - agnostic, critic of natural selection and neo-darwinism authored the book beyond neodarwinism.

theres also:

James A. Shapiro (2011) Evolution: A View from the 21st Century is against gradualism, against random mutations, against natural selection as a creative force, against the Central Dogma, for rapid change (HGT, symbiosis, whole genome duplication, hybridization, natural genetic engineering) and for adaptive mutation.

and Symbiosis

The most recent book of Lynn Margulis (2002) Acquiring Genomes. A Theory of the Origins of Species attacks neo-Darwinism. Margulis is an evolutionist but rejects mutation and natural selection as the mechanism for creating new species.

looks like non darwinian evolution is on the rise!

Level 9

Since: Sep 08

Everett, WA

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#8
Nov 20, 2011
 
Yes, 24 people, most of whom are not biologists. We evolutionists are shaking in our boots and take little solace of the 12,763 clergy who believe the theory of evolution. How many biologists, geologists, physicists and other scientists are there that believe the theory? 100,000? 1,000,000?

Yup those 24 look pretty significant to me.

Since: Dec 06

Urbana, Illinois

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#9
Nov 20, 2011
 
Non Darwinian evolution wrote:
...Guy Berthault, agnostic - claims he has evidence for a global flood...
Berthault? Evidence for "a global flood"?

What a joke... ALL geologic data contradicts a "Noah's Flood"!
nope

Moulton, UK

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#10
Nov 20, 2011
 
"Yes, 24 people, most of whom are not biologists" the majority of them were biologists.

"12,763 clergy who believe the theory of evolution" what has this got to do with anything? you seem to be obsessed with what the clergy think, i think u have spent too much time in your church my friend! u been brainwashed by those bible thumpers!. the clergy are not scientists.!!

"What a joke... ALL geologic data contradicts a "Noah's Flood"!"

hes not argueing for noahs flood, hes an agnostic, he argues for a rather large flood if what interprated as "global" by some, his work is based on the grand canyon.!!

"ALL geologic data"

you aint honest !!, you have seen "ALL" the geological data on earth, u have personally scanned every inch have you? every inch!!?? stop ur sillyness now! dunk you head down your nearest loo!

Level 9

Since: Sep 08

Everett, WA

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#11
Nov 20, 2011
 
The majority are biologists? I doubt it. For example Edward Sisson is not even a scientist. Why did you include him in this list?

http://nondiscovery.wordpress.com/2008/09/04/...

Giuseppe Sermonti is a creationist, he definitely is religious so should not be on your list. There are a few biologists, but most of them are probably religious so they also should not be on your list.

You should have at least Wiki links to all of your people. They are a neutral source. I would never trust a Christian source when it came to science or supposed people of science.

Level 9

Since: Sep 08

Everett, WA

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#12
Nov 20, 2011
 
And as FossilBob pointed out Guy Berthault is a YEC. Definitely not an agnostic.

Your list has far too many people who do not fit your description to be valid in any way at all.

And Guy's work was not based on the Grand Canyon. He did some work with a flume and tried to apply that to the world. So you have a list of quasi scientists and posers and yet you reject the list of clergy who say there is no problem with the theory of evolution and the Bible. The clergy may not have the scientific knowledge about the validity of evolution, but they should have the religious knowledge to tell if there was a conflict with their religious beliefs or not.

Your major claim against evolution is because you claim it denies the Bible. You have no scientific evidence against it. So if you are running off of religious beliefs then the clergy who disagree with you do apply to this debate.

Since: Nov 07

St. James, NY

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#13
Nov 21, 2011
 
Non Darwinian evolution wrote:
looks like non darwinian evolution is on the rise!
The modern Theory of Evolution has changed (evolved?) quite a bit in the 150 years since Darwin. So why the great rush in disputing Darwin? He's dead, his contribution to science was significant but is over and we are moving on.

Debating the finer points of evolution to determine which aspects have a greater affect on it is fine, but not really the purpose of this specific forum. Generally, the Topix Evolution forum is for the wider debate on whether Evolution actually occurs at all.

“I am Sisyphus”

Since: Nov 07

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#14
Nov 21, 2011
 
Non Darwinian evolution wrote:
"I have no idea where you got this list, but it is wrong. I know about a third of the names on the list and most of them are (or were since most are dead) very religious."
Just more lies, do your research and you will find all of them are agnostic/atheist except wolfgang smith who has catholic leanings:
Marcel-Paul Schutzenberger - was an atheist, wrote a book on mathematics debunking natural selection and random mutation.
Michael Denton - agnostic, wrote the book evolution a theory in crisis. Denton believes evolution is directed, hes a non darwinian evolutionist.
Michael Pitman, non religious deist, wrote a book called adam and evolution which claimed macroevolution has never happened on earth.
David Berlinski - agnostic, has written a couple of books questioning the darwinian mechanisms of evolution.
Periannan Senapathy - atheist came up with his own theory of origins called the independent birth or organisms which rejects common descent.
Chandra Wickramasighe - is an atheist who argues for an etnernal universe and directed panspermia, has written a number of books attacking darwins theory of evolution, instead he claims evolution is driven by genetic novetly from space.
Murray Eden, agnostic, claims based on mathetmatical grounds that darwins mechanisms of evolution could not of worked.
Stanly Salthe, agnostic.- has criticised darwinism in his latest books and advocates non-darwinian evolution.
Christian Schwabe - is an atheist who argues for eternal life (biogenesis) and that all organisms on earth came from chemical pools rejecting common descent.
Gerald Kerkut, agnostic, critic of neo-darwinism claimed that microevolution and macroevolution are different.
Lime-De-Faria,- is an agnostic who wrote a very detailed book on evolution which claims darwins theory of evolution is wrong and that evolution happenes without natural selection.
Pierre Grasse, was an agnostic and wrote a book defending lamarck, and attacking the mechanisms on neo-darwinism. he claims mutations do not cause any kind of evolution.
Soren Lovtrop - an atheist who came up with the macromutation theory opposed to the gradualism of darwin.
Fred Hoyle - an atheist known for his directed panspermia and evolution from space and criticism of darwins theory of evolution.
Stuart Pivar - an agnostic who challegened natural selection in recent publications.
Guy Berthault, agnostic - claims he has evidence for a global flood.
Roberto Fondi,- agnostic, critic of darwinism.
Wolfgang Smith, physicist has attacked darwins mechanisms of evolution, fair play (he does have roman catholic leanings) though not displayed in his work.
Giuseppe Sermonti, agnostic and author of a book which attacks darwinism from page to page.
Edward Sisson, agnostic - has written a number of papers criticising darwinism.
looks like non darwinian evolution is on the rise!

LOL, when called on lying your solution is to lie more????

Fred Hoyle an atheist? And since when are Deists considered Atheists? I am sure George Washington and Thomas Jefferson would be appalled at that definition.

And since when is theistic evolution not evolution?

You don't even seem to know what you are talking about.

Non-Darwinian evolution? No one with a single college class in biology would ever slip and waive such term of clear misunderstanding/ignorance.

Do you want me to chew the rest of your list up or are you done?

And learn how to quote on Topix.

“I am Sisyphus”

Since: Nov 07

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#15
Nov 21, 2011
 

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nope wrote:
"Yes, 24 people, most of whom are not biologists" the majority of them were biologists.
"12,763 clergy who believe the theory of evolution" what has this got to do with anything? you seem to be obsessed with what the clergy think, i think u have spent too much time in your church my friend! u been brainwashed by those bible thumpers!. the clergy are not scientists.!!
"What a joke... ALL geologic data contradicts a "Noah's Flood"!"
hes not argueing for noahs flood, hes an agnostic, he argues for a rather large flood if what interprated as "global" by some, his work is based on the grand canyon.!!
"ALL geologic data"
you aint honest !!, you have seen "ALL" the geological data on earth, u have personally scanned every inch have you? every inch!!?? stop ur sillyness now! dunk you head down your nearest loo!

By Noah's flood he means a global flood. If the bible is literal then substituting a local flood is an abomination.

The grand canyon (millions of years in formation through half a billion years of strata) is proof of NO flood.
get ur facts right plz

Moulton, UK

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#16
Nov 21, 2011
 
"The majority are biologists? I doubt it. For example Edward Sisson is not even a scientist. Why did you include him in this list?"

Yes the majority are biologists. Edward Sisson is a mathematician, you don't want to believe in everything you read on those anti websites.

"Giuseppe Sermonti is a creationist, he definitely is religious so should not be on your list"

This is completey false. Sermonti has publicly denounced being a creationist. Also read his book why a fly is not a horse, the whole point he said he writing that book was the prove that a non religious opposition to darwinism exists.- On the back of his OWN book - "!" The author, Dr. Giuseppe Sermonti, is a respected Italian biologist who boldly shatters the myth that all critics of Darwinian evolution are American religious fundamentalists. This delightful little book is loaded with scientific facts that aren't taught in standard biology classes, but it is also full of history and poetry. Why is a Fly Not a Horse? does not have all the answers, but it asks many of the right questions-in a style that is both entertaining and inspiring. Giuseppe Sermonti is retired Professor of Genetics at the University of Perugia". NOT A CREATIONIST.

"but most of them are probably religious so they also should not be on your list."

none of them are religious!!

"And as FossilBob pointed out Guy Berthault is a YEC. Definitely not an agnostic."

Well he is not a YEC. YECS may love him, but he is not a YEC. He is not even a christian. Hes an agnostic.- You can believe in a large flood without being religious inaway shape or form!

"Your major claim against evolution is because you claim it denies the Bible. You have no scientific evidence against it."

thanks to proving to me you are just a troll! you make things up to try and personally discredit people. Have you read none of my other posts? I accept evolution just not Darwins mechanisms, and I am no christian, I do not believe in any religious god, i have never read the bible! so stop making up lies. I am anti religion, I accept an eternal universe, an eternal universe has no creator. get ur facts right about me. if you want someone religious look at dogen he said hes a christian deist in other posts.

"So why the great rush in disputing Darwin? He's dead, his contribution to science was significant but is over and we are moving on."

no we are not moving on. neodarwinists now known as the modern evolutionary synthesis is a piece of dogma to this very day dominating what "is" and what "isnt" evolution, these scientists think they are authority, all other evolutionary mechanisms are opposed and silenced by this group of darwinists. anyone who goes near there "natural selection" is a heretic and attacked. neodarwinism is dogma. mainstream scientists are not publicly aloud to question their mechanisms otherwise they may lose their job and are silenced.
get ur facts right plz

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#17
Nov 21, 2011
 
dogen has no evidence that any of those scientists on the list are religious so resorts to silly attacks.

"Fred Hoyle an atheist?"

It is a well confirmed fact that Hoyle was an atheist to the day he died, you may want to read a biography about him see, fred hoyles universe, the author explains the atheism or hoyle. he unlike other atheists admitted though that there was some kind of intelligence behind the cosmos, if you had bothered to read his books such as cosmic life force you would see that he put this intelligence in natural terms and claimed that science may discover it one day. he also wrote an atheistic ID book and near the end he said he would never become a christian or embrace any religious deity. so much for him being religious.

"And since when are Deists considered Atheists?"

not a list of atheists, it's a list of non religious scientists who oppose darwins mechanisms. Most deists are anti religious.

And since when is theistic evolution not evolution?

thats interesting becuase none of the scientists on the list are theistic evolutionists, becuase none are theists.

"You don't even seem to know what you are talking about."

no it's quite clear you do not know what you are talking about. you own none of the books on the list, you then realise their is a non religious objection to your darwinian fairytale then you just have to resort to lieing and falsely claiming the scientists on the list are religious of which you claim no evidence for anyway. its like talking to a brick wall with you, ur mind has been brainwashed that badly by darwinism that you will go any cost to make up lies to defend your religion.

"Non-Darwinian evolution? No one with a single college class in biology would ever slip and waive such term of clear misunderstanding/ignorance. "

The majority of biology classes mention lamarckism which is a non-darwinian evolution theory. I also suggest you read the book
The Eclipse of Darwinism: Anti-Darwinian Evolution Theories in the Decades around 1900 by Peter J. Bowler . he lists non-darwinian evolution theories up until 1940 which were taken seriously by science. saltionism, macromutation theory, vitalism, orthogenesis, neo-lamacarkism, nomogenesis etc etc etc - ALL NON DARWINIAN EVOLUTION theories. you clearly have no knowledge about evolution. cheers.
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

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#18
Nov 21, 2011
 
O NOES! Shadow's come back with his army of sockpuppets and hit us with (huge gasp)- TEH MASSIVE APPEAL TO AUTHORITY FALLACY! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!

:-(

“I am Sisyphus”

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#19
Nov 21, 2011
 
get ur facts right plz wrote:
It is a well confirmed fact that Hoyle was an atheist

Hoyle could be best characterized an unattached deist. He frequently talked about a guiding hand and of the universe having an intelligence unto itself. He was critical of many things outside of his field of science (now referred to as Hoyle's Fallacy).
get ur facts right plz wrote:
"And since when are Deists considered Atheists?"

Dipshist responded> not a list of atheists, it's a list of non religious scientists who oppose darwins mechanisms.

That is not how you characterized the list. So you have admitted to lying. Thank you.
get ur facts right plz wrote:
Most deists are anti religious.

I resent that characterization. I am a Deist and am very religious.
get ur facts right plz wrote:
And since when is theistic evolution not evolution?
thats interesting becuase none of the scientists on the list are theistic evolutionists, becuase none are theists.

Po-ta-to, Po-tat-o. If they believe in a supreme power and many on the list did (again many are dead) and a connection between that power and life then... Most accurate term we have for them if not what they might have called themselves.
get ur facts right plz wrote:
you own none of the books on the list,

False.
get ur facts right plz wrote:
you then realise their is a non religious objection to your darwinian fairytale

Are you an atheist? If not, how heritical is claiming evidence from atheists to support your point. How disingenuous. How dishonest.
get ur facts right plz wrote:
then you just have to resort to lieing and falsely claiming the scientists on the list are religious of which you claim no evidence for anyway.

That was 10% of what I said. I take it you are admitting I am right in every other detail. If so I will remove the religious objection. Deal with the others.
get ur facts right plz wrote:
Non-Darwinian evolution? No one with a single college class in biology would ever slip and waive such term of clear misunderstanding/ignorance. " The majority of biology classes mention lamarckism which is a non-darwinian evolution theory.
[goes on to talk about the history of theories of evolution]

Okay, given. TODAY there are no theories of evolution that are taken seriously except the modern synthesis.

There are no MODERN NON DARWINIAN EVOLUTION theories that have any credibility. Period.

you clearly have no knowledge about evolution. cheers.

I have only had maybe a dozen college and graduate level classes on evolution and have not read more than maybe 30 books on the subject. So clearly I do not know everything.

What are your credentials again?

And from what university did you get that GED?
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

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#20
Nov 21, 2011
 
get ur facts right plz wrote:
you clearly have no knowledge about evolution. cheers.
Hooowaaaa, that just blew a few irony meters there shades.

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