Evolution Refuted
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Level 6

Since: Mar 12

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#209 Sep 2, 2013
Rohan wrote:
Mr Chimney,
Some apparently reasonable and deep points:
1. Re faith being consistent with science - Yes, my faith is consistent and therefore the hypothetical question is no more valid than to say suppose your left eye saw a different reality than your right eye which would you rely on?(God gave us two eyes similarly there is the spiritual and the material, I believe the spiritual is greater but both are valid)
2. Now You ask a profound question ... why should an ancient text have validity over scientific methodology and surely the element of doubt is actually a virtue?...
My opinion:
i) Both should be used in conjunction - Faith is absolute truth about why we are here and therefore doubt is bad and weakens it. Science is conjecture about how and generally questions/successive iterations strengthens it. No contradiction should exist.
ii) The prophet (saw) said first get them to believe in God, then pray to God and then when they accept that to give Charity. I have observed when atheist types ridicule religion they generally ridicule items other than these core ones. So you object to Islam because of whatever that is your right BUT please at least accept these core items.
3. "There is no compulsion is religion" - this is in the Quran 2:256 (not just street cred in early days) and I strongly recommend you read the prior verse Ayat Qursi also.
My understanding of the apostasy death penalty is battlefield treason (eg changing sides mid-battle). You would need to consult a sharia expert for a full answer. I note you are in an Islamic country UAE ...btw I was formerly CEO of a Dubai based Company about 6-7 years ago during the height of the construction boom and lived near Ibn Battuta Mall. So maybe we have some common ground. and I hope belief in God and charity can also be common ground too.
Just some personal thoughts on faith ,hope this helps
Kind Regards
Rohan
A balanced response Rohan, thank you.

I do not have time right now to continue the conversation, just passing the point that I have read your post. Needless to say I have some disagreements but will discuss later.

BTW a question. Do you refute evolution in general? Or are you one who accepts evolution but thinks God must have guided it?
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#210 Sep 3, 2013
Rohan wrote:
Re faith being consistent with science - Yes, my faith is consistent
You're lying again. Remember, God is watching...
Rohan wrote:
I believe the spiritual is greater but both are valid
Your baseless beliefs are irrelevant. You have zero evidence of the spiritual. Other than liquor, which can have the same effect.
Rohan wrote:
Faith is absolute truth
And "truth" is subjective. Which is why every religion claims it.
Rohan wrote:
about why we are here and therefore doubt is bad and weakens it.
That's YOUR problem.(shrug)
Rohan wrote:
Science is conjecture about how and generally questions/successive iterations strengthens it. No contradiction should exist.
Science works. That's why you have a computer. You reject the science that made it. Nuggin explained why, but so far you have failed to address his, or in fact anyone else's points.
Rohan wrote:
ii) The prophet (saw) said first get them to believe in God
Can you provide objectively verifiable scientific evidence that this invisible Jewish magic wizard of yours even exists? If not then you have a problem.
Rohan wrote:
then pray to God and then when they accept that to give Charity.
The fact you must rely on external influences to do charity speaks volumes of your alleged "morality".
Rohan wrote:
I have observed when atheist types ridicule
I'm sorry but what has this got to do with swiss cheese? Atheism is irrelevant to the validity of science. It works exactly the same whether you're atheist, theist or something else.
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#211 Sep 3, 2013
Rohan wrote:
Look here Dude ... I think you are fundamentally a good guy because you help old people and accept there may be a God.
Thanks but I really don't give two hoots what you think about me, and I think you're nothing more than a fundie liar for Jesus who's more interested in preaching than science or even telling the truth.
Rohan wrote:
I am prepared to forgive your absurd and ill mannered behaviour
Uh, who are you again?(shrug)
Rohan wrote:
but I have a question for you ...
Given the following Evidence:
1 Dude previously said "men are apes"
2. In common parlance Apes are monkeys although they are different
Actually apes are apes and monkeys are monkeys. Although apes and monkeys are related via much earlier monkey-like animals.
Rohan wrote:
Suppose I discovered you were my long lost nephew would I then be a Monkey's Uncle?
No, you would be an ape's uncle.
Rohan wrote:
Trust evidence and argument meet your approval!
All I note is that you've done nothing to refute anyone, nothing to support yourself, and made no attempt to educate yourself. That's not my problem.
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#212 Sep 3, 2013
PCD wrote:
<quoted text>
Agreed! Knew I was butting into an ongoing convo, just seemed like Rohan was missing some pretty basic information and didn't want to start throwing around 'hominid' right off the bat.:)
I wouldn't worry about what terminology you're using. Ape = monkey and reality isn't real cuz Goddidit with magic. The end.
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#213 Sep 3, 2013
Chimney1 wrote:
BTW a question. Do you refute evolution in general?
No.

Level 6

Since: Mar 12

Location hidden

#214 Sep 3, 2013
Rohan wrote:
Mr Chimney,
Some apparently reasonable and deep points:
1. Re faith being consistent with science - Yes, my faith is consistent and therefore the hypothetical question is no more valid than to say suppose your left eye saw a different reality than your right eye which would you rely on?(God gave us two eyes similarly there is the spiritual and the material, I believe the spiritual is greater but both are valid)
Well, I have two eyes but my vision is stereoscopic. Meaning I see the same thing with both eyes but with the benefit of depth and perspective.

But joking with your analogy aside, you have answered that to you the faith eye trumps the rational critical eye. Meaning that where science disagrees with your scripture based position, you reject the science.
2. Now You ask a profound question ... why should an ancient text have validity over scientific methodology and surely the element of doubt is actually a virtue?...
My opinion:
i) Both should be used in conjunction - Faith is absolute truth about why we are here and therefore doubt is bad and weakens it. Science is conjecture about how and generally questions/successive iterations strengthens it. No contradiction should exist.
ii)
None "should" contradict only if you are correct and your faith is true. Sooner or later, they WON'T on some point. At which point I regard your faith as falsified - just as the scientific method suggests. A hypothesis falsified by evidence is no longer valid.
The prophet (saw) said first get them to believe in God, then pray to God and then when they accept that to give Charity.
Well, that was his opinion. My opinion is that people can see the value in charity and good works whether they believe in God or not.
I have observed when atheist types ridicule religion they generally ridicule items other than these core ones.
I have never heard an atheist ridicule the value of charity either.
So you object to Islam because of whatever that is your right
Yes, its my right because I was lucky enough not to be born Islamic. For those born Muslim, objecting to Islam is punishable by death, according to Islamic law...
3. "There is no compulsion is religion" - this is in the Quran 2:256 (not just street cred in early days)
This verse is ABROGATED by later verses that make it clear that rejecting Islam once inside it is severely punishable - even if you were born into it and therefore had NO choice.
My understanding of the apostasy death penalty is battlefield treason (eg changing sides mid-battle). You would need to consult a sharia expert for a full answer.
Your understanding is false according to every Sharia source I can find. There are a few moderates who say that one should only be punished if they actually speak against Islam once leaving.

Well, that is hardly more acceptable. Its totalitarian and completely incompatible with Western values of the free exchange of speech and opinions and the right to vocally disagree that I hold in high regard. And its a minority opinion anyway.

Your "battlefield" condition is highly malleable. As Islam considers itself in permanent battle against the Non-believer, then practically speaking ANY rejection of Islam is an "act of (battlefild) Treason".
I note you are in an Islamic country UAE ...btw I was formerly CEO of a Dubai based Company about 6-7 years ago during the height of the construction boom and lived near Ibn Battuta Mall. So maybe we have some common ground. and I hope belief in God and charity can also be common ground too.
Well, the place is booming again and the Mall is very busy. The whole Furjan area next to Discovery Gardens is filling up fast too. I am sure we do have common ground, theological arguments aside.

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