Catholic Church Waging War on Women a...

Catholic Church Waging War on Women and Gays

There are 217509 comments on the Fables of the reconstruction story from Oct 30, 2007, titled Catholic Church Waging War on Women and Gays. In it, Fables of the reconstruction reports that:

“Pharmacists must seek to raise people's awareness so that all human beings are protected from conception to natural death, and so that medicines truly play a therapeutic role”

Pope Benedict XVI said Monday that pharmacists have a right to use conscientious objection to avoid dispensing emergency contraception or euthanasia drugs - and told them they should also inform patients of the ... via Fables of the reconstruction

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“Jesus, my Lord and my God.”

Since: Jan 08

Location hidden

#256356 Feb 21, 2016
Thomas, I didn't mean to sound rude by my last sentence if I did. It's just something I wonder about, but then I believe for myself, that I have to embrace what I've been taught. Like you already said in your post.

Since: Apr 08

Location hidden

#256357 Feb 22, 2016
MichelleMC wrote:
Thomas, I didn't mean to sound rude by my last sentence if I did. It's just something I wonder about, but then I believe for myself, that I have to embrace what I've been taught. Like you already said in your post.
MichelleMC...

I see a lot of myself in you when I was a strong practicing Catholic.

I realized over time I was experiencing Catholic guilt 101.

It's your decision to follow the Catholic Church's teachings and belief's.

As you quoted you have embraced what you been taught.

As for me I revisited everything I've been taught from day one and that took many many years.

Then I've made my own adult very tough decision to become non-practicing Catholic.

My son who's gay was the tipping point of my examination of conscience in a supersized way.

It is not a easy path but it was well worth it for me.

Since: Apr 08

Location hidden

#256358 Feb 22, 2016
Tre H wrote:
<quoted text>
Actually, I did address that. It apparently just went over your head though. I'll try to state it more simply.
it's not just that you have different beliefs. That would be a ridiculous over-generalization. That implies that all gay people have the same beliefs. They don't.
It is that the beliefs themselves are that gay people are fundamentally bad and morally inferior. I'm sorry if you can't understand how that is viewed as hateful and bigoted. Most bigots do not think they are bigoted. They often deny their prejudice and blame it on a deity of an ancient superstition.
Ellen DeGeneres is a comedian and TV star, and a smart one. She's not going to kill the popularity of her show by making it all about her sexuality and hateful bigots. Her show is about fun and is rarely going to get too deep into something serious and potentially controversial. I'm not sure why you bring up Ellen. Although I do like her show, she is just one of many many famous people who happen to be gay. What she personally thinks about hateful bigots is not something she's likely to discuss on television.
Me? I'm not Ellen, and I'm not famous. I'm on a discussion forum, not a tv show. I have nothing to lose by speaking my mind.
You think YOU have "grown up and learned that not everyone believes the same thing." You're implying that my thinking that some people are hateful and bigoted is because I'm not grown up and don't understand that people have different beliefs... but you somehow ARE grown up and wiser than me because you are enlightened to these different beliefs people have. It's mind-blowing just how NOT grown up your thinking is.
If you were honest enough with yourself to, instead of questioning my perspective on bigotry, you really examine what your own beliefs are, you might realize why certain beliefs are seen as hateful and bigoted. it's not just because they are "different" from my beliefs. it's because the beliefs themselves are about seeing gay people as fundamentally bad. It is often accompanied by the ignorant beliefs that being gay is both a choice that one makes, and that it is harmful to others.
And Michelle, when I speak about ignorance and hatefulness, I'm not intending to direct that specifically at you. I don't have a personal beef with you, I'm speaking more generally. But the fact that you sometimes seem to take things I say personally, and become defensive, might suggest that deep down you may actually feel a little guilty. That is perhaps your heart having trouble reconciling with some of the beliefs you've been indoctrinated with. But you always choose to trust what you've been taught over your own gut instincts trying to tell you that it's wrong. Maybe.
On the other hand, maybe you're right. Maybe it is me who needs to grow up and realize that your beliefs are superior to mine, and that my being non-heterosexual makes me an inferior human being and I deserve to have the whole world see me that way... all because the people who think "God" has a problem with people of the same gender being intimate with each other, must have the "correct" belief. I'm actually the ignorant hateful one for choosing not to believe this obvious truth and having the unmitigated gall to stand up for LGBT people when I should be supporting more "Christian" ideals. like judging other people based on their sexuality. Obviously *I'M* the one who needs to grow up here.
I've learned through time is was okay to trust my instincts instead what the Catholic Church's teachings was saying I should follow and do.

That was difficult because I was going against what I also learned in my indoctrination into the Catholic faith.

I had to watch myself not make that 380 degree and become an extreme anti-Catholic person.
Going into a radical rants that is only destructive to me instead of living in some peaceful way and still be happy with who I am.

Your post is a gem.

Thanks Thomas!

Since: Apr 08

Location hidden

#256359 Feb 22, 2016
Tre H wrote:
<quoted text>
Gays are not "bred."
And please do not confuse child molesters and sexual predators with gay people.
What I noticed in the last years or so folks are starting to realize because a person is gay it doesn't mean he or she is a sexual predator.

The Catholic Church didn't help with that issue.

The secrecy of the Catholic Church's clergy, many of their clergy having sexual encounters with consenting adult male or female help create the atmosphere of protecting their sexual predators priests.

For the longest time Catholic folks blamed the gay male clergy for the problem for the sexual clergy abuse crimes.
That lie that was told by Vatican officials years ago still rings true to this day but a growing population is starting to see it is not the case.

There is still a long way to go that's for sure.

“CO2 is Gaseous Love”

Since: Dec 08

Home, sweet home.

#256360 Feb 22, 2016
The Catholic Church gives shelter to women and gays even while ISIS murders them. The Vatican has walls because it needs them.

“=”

Since: Oct 07

Appleton WI

#256361 Feb 23, 2016
MichelleMC wrote:
<quoted text>
Thomas, I'm sorry I always get so defensive and take things personally. I've always been like that, even with people I know and no matter what the topic is and it's just not on the internet that I'm that way on. And I in no way think people who are gay are inferior. I believe God loves us all the same and I think you were brought up Catholic, so you probably learned that if you were the only person on earth, Jesus would have died for your salvation, and I believe that with each person who is gay. God loves them no less than He loves straight people, and He would die for each person who is gay if they were the only person on earth, just like He would with straight people. Just whatever our differences are, I don't want to be seen like those in the Westboro Baptist Church. I would never do what they do or believe how they do, and I believe they have to answer to God for their hatefulness unless they change.
Thomas, I don't have anything personal against you either. And going back to being defensive, perhaps you are right or maybe you're not.
Michelle, I spent considerable time typing a reply to this yesterday... unfortunately it disappeared and failed to post for some reason... no, there was no profanity or anything offensive in it.... just one of those Topix glitches when posts just disappear.

You may or may not recall that for the last several years I cannot afford internet at home, so I post from the library, and I'm limited to 2 hours a day on these computers, and not all of that is spent on Topix... and I don't come here every day. So I hope you forgive me if I don't rush to try to re-do that post immediately, because my time online is limited, and it's frustrating and discouraging when a post I spent some time on just vanishes.

Suffice it to say for now, I do not perceive you as hateful or anything like the WBC. Nor do I compare the RCC to WBC.

I'm frustrated because I came up with what I thought communicated things very well yesterday, but I don't know if I can remember how I stated everything. I'm not claiming the post was a work of art, or anything particularly special... but it's sort of like a painter about to reveal a painting, only to discover that the canvas is now somehow blank, as if all that work was never done. Very disappointing, but that's not your fault or your problem.

I may try to re-create the post at some point after I get over the anger of it vanishing on me. But I don't have such an enormous ego to think you'll be anxiously awaiting it either...probably doesn't matter one bit. For all I know, my post vanishing could have been "divine intervention," but again... one would have to have quite an ego to think it was important enough for god to step in.

“=”

Since: Oct 07

Appleton WI

#256362 Feb 23, 2016
MichelleMC wrote:
Thomas, I didn't mean to sound rude by my last sentence if I did. It's just something I wonder about, but then I believe for myself, that I have to embrace what I've been taught. Like you already said in your post.
I didn't take it as rude. I know you're nowhere near as sarcastic as I can sometimes be. And to me, asking questions and saying "maybe" as opposed to stating absolutes and claiming absolute certainty about things is a sign of wisdom. Just believing things you are taught without questioning or thinking about them is anti-intellectual.

“=”

Since: Oct 07

Appleton WI

#256363 Feb 23, 2016
Estelle wrote:
<quoted text>
I've learned through time is was okay to trust my instincts instead what the Catholic Church's teachings was saying I should follow and do.
That was difficult because I was going against what I also learned in my indoctrination into the Catholic faith.
I had to watch myself not make that 380 degree and become an extreme anti-Catholic person.
Going into a radical rants that is only destructive to me instead of living in some peaceful way and still be happy with who I am.
Your post is a gem.
Thanks Thomas!
It's always nice to hear from you, Estelle. I had what I thought was a pretty good post yesterday, but it disappeared and failed to post. Made me mad!

Hopefully others will understand, as you seem to, that I don't hate people who are Catholic, I just strongly disagree with some of what the church teaches. I think it can be good for some people to allow their conscience to inform them. I personally think it is unhealthy to routinely ignore your instincts in some blind loyalty to religious doctrine. Not everyone deals with this conflict in the same ways, but the first step is to recognize that there IS a conflict.

I know that your personal journey was difficult and sometimes painful, but I admire your courage and tenacity, and how you seem to have come through it with grace and humility.

“=”

Since: Oct 07

Appleton WI

#256364 Feb 24, 2016
When I click on this thread from the forum list, even when I click on "latest post" it brings me to a page from over a year ago...I assume this is because some years ago large portions of this thread were deleted... and I assume this happens to everyone else too, so you probably know just what I'm talking about.

So occasionally I find myself reading posts from well over a year ago because that's the page Topix brings up instead of where my last post was.

I found this post where I replied to "Sherlayne," who had commented about how nice and "not judgmental" she perceives the new pope to be.

-------
"I think that says more about you than the pope. I think you always try to see the best and most positive in people.

Me... I'm way too cynical. This pope may very well be a very nice guy, and I don't doubt that he is. But it doesn't matter how nice you are if you think homosexuality is an "intrinsic moral evil," you really cannot treat homosexuals with any dignity.

You can only be patronizing and condescending with your "niceness." Oh, I know you're going to burn in a lake of fire for eternity, but for now, I'll treat you with "dignity."

I don't mean you, personally... I'm just using "you" generically or referring to any pope or person who believes the religious dogma that God hates homosexuality. "
_____

The reason I re-post this, is not because i think it was a brilliant post, but because it helps reiterate how I feel about "Christians" thinking they are being "nice" or "kind" or "not judgmental" or "treating them with dignity" when it comes to non-heterosexuality.

I cannot stress enough how if the message is still the same "unrepentant non-heterosexuals will burn in hell for eternity" is not nice, kind, non-judgmental or treating anyone with dignity.

Oh I know many of them think that trying to help wayward sinners save their souls by warning them of their impending doom if they fail to live a life that others approve of, but as I said, that's just condescending and supreme arrogance.

It's not actually caring about anyone's eternal soul. It's just posturing. It's really about being a self-righteous, sanctimonious hypocrite who assumes they are more than good enough to get into heaven, while you are not. It is people who cannot admit that is is THEY who have a problem with non-heterosexuality, not their "god."

“=”

Since: Oct 07

Appleton WI

#256365 Feb 24, 2016
Another thing I see from reading old posts is that Brian G has been posting his off-topic idiocy about ISIS since at least October 2014. Probably even earlier. His broken record has been skipping and repeating for a long time. He apparently refuses to either shut off the record player or put a different record on the turntable. It's the same ridiculous noise over and over, and you can't even dance to it.

Since: Apr 08

Location hidden

#256368 Feb 27, 2016
Tre H wrote:
<quoted text>
It's always nice to hear from you, Estelle. I had what I thought was a pretty good post yesterday, but it disappeared and failed to post. Made me mad!
Hopefully others will understand, as you seem to, that I don't hate people who are Catholic, I just strongly disagree with some of what the church teaches. I think it can be good for some people to allow their conscience to inform them. I personally think it is unhealthy to routinely ignore your instincts in some blind loyalty to religious doctrine. Not everyone deals with this conflict in the same ways, but the first step is to recognize that there IS a conflict.
I know that your personal journey was difficult and sometimes painful, but I admire your courage and tenacity, and how you seem to have come through it with grace and humility.
Thanks Thomas (Tre H)!
Belles Echoes

Santa Cruz, CA

#256369 Feb 27, 2016
Tre H wrote:
Another thing I see from reading old posts is that Brian G has been posting his off-topic idiocy about ISIS since at least October 2014. Probably even earlier. His broken record has been skipping and repeating for a long time. He apparently refuses to either shut off the record player or put a different record on the turntable. It's the same ridiculous noise over and over, and you can't even dance to it.
"A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject."
- Winston Churchill

“CO2 is Gaseous Love”

Since: Dec 08

Home, sweet home.

#256370 Feb 28, 2016
I admire the Catholic Church, I don't defame it. This is where we differ.

“Jesus, my Lord and my God.”

Since: Jan 08

Location hidden

#256371 Feb 28, 2016
Tre H wrote:
<quoted text>
Michelle, I spent considerable time typing a reply to this yesterday... unfortunately it disappeared and failed to post for some reason... no, there was no profanity or anything offensive in it.... just one of those Topix glitches when posts just disappear.
You may or may not recall that for the last several years I cannot afford internet at home, so I post from the library, and I'm limited to 2 hours a day on these computers, and not all of that is spent on Topix... and I don't come here every day. So I hope you forgive me if I don't rush to try to re-do that post immediately, because my time online is limited, and it's frustrating and discouraging when a post I spent some time on just vanishes.
Suffice it to say for now, I do not perceive you as hateful or anything like the WBC. Nor do I compare the RCC to WBC.
I'm frustrated because I came up with what I thought communicated things very well yesterday, but I don't know if I can remember how I stated everything. I'm not claiming the post was a work of art, or anything particularly special... but it's sort of like a painter about to reveal a painting, only to discover that the canvas is now somehow blank, as if all that work was never done. Very disappointing, but that's not your fault or your problem.
I may try to re-create the post at some point after I get over the anger of it vanishing on me. But I don't have such an enormous ego to think you'll be anxiously awaiting it either...probably doesn't matter one bit. For all I know, my post vanishing could have been "divine intervention," but again... one would have to have quite an ego to think it was important enough for god to step in.
Thomas, I don't think you're arrogant, but I'm so curious as to what the post would have said. And I know you don't group all people like the RCCs in one category and perceive us as hateful. Now maybe the WBC members all are. They're a small group who shows hatred and thinks God hates everyone else but them probably.
I have a lousy memory so I didn't remember about you going to the library to post. Speaking of affording things, I'm cutting off my cable because we just can't do it anymore, and that includes internet, so I really hope we can find someone who will just let us have internet on the computer if our present company does not. So we're getting rid of the TV and home phone, but hopefully keeping the internet. I don't even come on the computer daily anymore so as you know I'm slow to respond to you and I know you're not having my response on your mind before anything else. We have our different problems to deal with, and it seems the hard financial problems have hit both of us. I hope it gets better for you, Thomas.
I'm sorry about your the Topix glitch. I thought I heard a scream yesterday, LOL!! Have a good day.

“Jesus, my Lord and my God.”

Since: Jan 08

Location hidden

#256372 Feb 28, 2016
Estelle wrote:
<quoted text>
MichelleMC...
I see a lot of myself in you when I was a strong practicing Catholic.
I realized over time I was experiencing Catholic guilt 101.
It's your decision to follow the Catholic Church's teachings and belief's.
As you quoted you have embraced what you been taught.
As for me I revisited everything I've been taught from day one and that took many many years.
Then I've made my own adult very tough decision to become non-practicing Catholic.
My son who's gay was the tipping point of my examination of conscience in a supersized way.
It is not a easy path but it was well worth it for me.
Hi Estelle.
For what it's worth, I'll keep praying for you and your son. If I remember correctly, I think you told us you talked to the Priest about your son when you were still practicing, or maybe I'm wrong. If you did, I just hope he never told you to turn your back on him because that would be against our Lord and His teachings. I just don't understand how "Christian" parents can turn their backs on their children, small or grown for any reason, and that's not being a true Christian.

“=”

Since: Oct 07

Appleton WI

#256373 Feb 29, 2016
MichelleMC wrote:
<quoted text>
Thomas, I don't think you're arrogant, but I'm so curious as to what the post would have said. And I know you don't group all people like the RCCs in one category and perceive us as hateful. Now maybe the WBC members all are. They're a small group who shows hatred and thinks God hates everyone else but them probably.

I'm sorry about your the Topix glitch. I thought I heard a scream yesterday, LOL!! Have a good day.
Certainly the WBC is notoriously homophobic. They even brainwash their young children into a culture of hate, forcing them to carry the ultra-offensive picket signs reading things like "You're Going to Hell" and "God Hates Fags," and often disturbing the funerals of military service people.Apparently they even have a website with the domain name godhatesfags dot com.

But they are kind of old news. And the old man, Fred Phelps died a while ago, so the biggest bellowing windbag is no longer fanning the flames, so maybe the hate will die down. After all, this is one small church, and most of them are related. There have been stories of a few who have left the church (and family) and escaped what is basically a cult of hate.

But not everyone who is hateful or bigoted is as blatantly outspokenly honest about their hatred as The Phelps Clan. And there are certainly far more people in this world who are anti-gay, even if they don't scream and shout it like the WBC. It's not as if the WBC are the only problem LGBT people have.

In fact, their over-the-top in-your-face brand of hatred has in the long run, actually helped... because sane people would be ashamed to behave like them. It exposes the level of absurdity and hypocrisy and hatefulness and obsessiveness of people who regularly aggressively cultivate pure hatred for people just because they're not heterosexual, or support people who are not heterosexual.

There are people who do not spend their lives attacking gays, but who still have very anti-gay attitudes, even if they think they're being polite about it.

In the post that got lost, I said something about... think of the villains in some horror movies. Sometimes a clown, or a doll, or a young child, or a little old lady with a smile can be far scarier than the more obvious horrible demonic looking monsters. It's the insidiousness of images that are seemingly benign and innocent having the power to do great evil.

This can also apply to the "devil," for those who believe such things exist. Some people assume the devil looks obviously evil, like a demon with horns, frightening and ugly. But some people perceive the devil as beautiful, seductive, and charming.

Now, I'm not trying to say the pope is actually the devil, but as long as the church continues to teach that unrepentant non-heterosexuals will be tortured for eternity because their god is a homophobe... any pretense of "kindness" or "dignity" toward LGBT people is just that... pretense. There is no kindness or dignity in such a message, no matter how sweetly they deliver it or wrap it in smiles and hugs.

I am also NOT saying that you, Michelle, are some kind of villain. I actually perceive you as someone whose instinct is to be loving and caring. I just see you as someone who also struggles with trying to reconcile that instinct with what you've been taught.

Sorry if I'm being repetitive, but at this point I don't remember what I already said, and what was in the post that disappeared... and I know there was quite a bit more that I already forgot what all I said.

“=”

Since: Oct 07

Appleton WI

#256374 Feb 29, 2016
It happened again... the post above did NOT POST the first time for some reason, but this time I managed to recover what I posted and the second time it posted.

“=”

Since: Oct 07

Appleton WI

#256376 Feb 29, 2016
And now it's back. Geez, this site is messed up.

“Jesus, my Lord and my God.”

Since: Jan 08

Location hidden

#256377 Mar 1, 2016
Tre H wrote:
<quoted text>
Certainly the WBC is notoriously homophobic. They even brainwash their young children into a culture of hate, forcing them to carry the ultra-offensive picket signs reading things like "You're Going to Hell" and "God Hates Fags," and often disturbing the funerals of military service people.Apparently they even have a website with the domain name godhatesfags dot com.
But they are kind of old news. And the old man, Fred Phelps died a while ago, so the biggest bellowing windbag is no longer fanning the flames, so maybe the hate will die down. After all, this is one small church, and most of them are related. There have been stories of a few who have left the church (and family) and escaped what is basically a cult of hate.
But not everyone who is hateful or bigoted is as blatantly outspokenly honest about their hatred as The Phelps Clan. And there are certainly far more people in this world who are anti-gay, even if they don't scream and shout it like the WBC. It's not as if the WBC are the only problem LGBT people have.
In fact, their over-the-top in-your-face brand of hatred has in the long run, actually helped... because sane people would be ashamed to behave like them. It exposes the level of absurdity and hypocrisy and hatefulness and obsessiveness of people who regularly aggressively cultivate pure hatred for people just because they're not heterosexual, or support people who are not heterosexual.
There are people who do not spend their lives attacking gays, but who still have very anti-gay attitudes, even if they think they're being polite about it.
In the post that got lost, I said something about... think of the villains in some horror movies. Sometimes a clown, or a doll, or a young child, or a little old lady with a smile can be far scarier than the more obvious horrible demonic looking monsters. It's the insidiousness of images that are seemingly benign and innocent having the power to do great evil.
This can also apply to the "devil," for those who believe such things exist. Some people assume the devil looks obviously evil, like a demon with horns, frightening and ugly. But some people perceive the devil as beautiful, seductive, and charming.
Now, I'm not trying to say the pope is actually the devil, but as long as the church continues to teach that unrepentant non-heterosexuals will be tortured for eternity because their god is a homophobe... any pretense of "kindness" or "dignity" toward LGBT people is just that... pretense. There is no kindness or dignity in such a message, no matter how sweetly they deliver it or wrap it in smiles and hugs.
I am also NOT saying that you, Michelle, are some kind of villain. I actually perceive you as someone whose instinct is to be loving and caring. I just see you as someone who also struggles with trying to reconcile that instinct with what you've been taught.
Sorry if I'm being repetitive, but at this point I don't remember what I already said, and what was in the post that disappeared... and I know there was quite a bit more that I already forgot what all I said.
Thanks for your post Thomas. I knew you weren't referring to me because you have told me the other day. I do know people who are kind, but then I see they are anti gay. Gosh!!! This website is annoying and very slow. So sorry I was so short, but I don't have much patience for this. Take care.

Since: Apr 08

Location hidden

#256378 Mar 2, 2016
MichelleMC wrote:
<quoted text>
Hi Estelle.
For what it's worth, I'll keep praying for you and your son. If I remember correctly, I think you told us you talked to the Priest about your son when you were still practicing, or maybe I'm wrong. If you did, I just hope he never told you to turn your back on him because that would be against our Lord and His teachings. I just don't understand how "Christian" parents can turn their backs on their children, small or grown for any reason, and that's not being a true Christian.
The priest I went to when I was still a practicing Catholic said to keep praying and loving my son.

He kept looking out of the window when he said it. There was no eye contact that is what I remember that was SO strange.

I got this feeling (I'm speculating) the words he was saying to me was rehearsed.

I could be he was struggling with his own sexuality? I don't know.

Another priest who was my parish priest he was really a closet gay and that was a nightmare for me.
I pick up on his deceptions and lies in the confessional.
I have no contact with him what so ever as well as any other priest now.

In my opinion, many closet gay priest are harder on gays and on their loved ones than straight priests.

Even though I don't pray, I wouldn't tell you Michelle not to pray for my son and even me because if anyone understand the Catholic ways it's me.

Take-care,
Estelle



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