Sweeping Anti-Abortion Bill Expected To Become Kan. Law

Apr 6, 2013 Full story: National Public Radio 1,168

Kansas legislators gave final passage to a sweeping anti-abortion measure Friday night, sending Gov.

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Mike

Edwardsville, IL

#986 May 6, 2013
barefoot2626 wrote:
<quoted text>
So let's be clear, you smarmy limp-wristed fairy: You dished it out on your VERY FIRST POST.
You got me mixed up with your boyfriend, Sweetie: I'm not getting one of your tonsil massages so I don't have to put up with your guff.
Make sure you remember who pulled the pin out first, Sweetie.
Your going to resort to hate filled bashing of homosexuals to settle your debates now. That is not very tolerant or mature.

“Define Necessity”

Since: Mar 13

FOR YOURSELF

#987 May 6, 2013
Mike wrote:
<quoted text>
It is prima facie wrong to kill homo sapiens that have done nothing wrong. This is a self evident premise. I shouldn't have to argue any farther.
So why aren't you out there protesting the deaths of thousands of human embryos in dumpsters, as a result of in vitro fertilization techniques???

Where is the outrage for the innocent children being killed by United States drone strikes in the Middle East?

Have the women who die as a result of attempting gestation (and the US has the third highest rate of maternal deaths in the industrialized world, by the way)'done anything wrong' enough to merit death?

Your 'prima facie' argument is going flatter than a soufflé at a Megadeth concert, pookie.

“And the Horse You Rode in On”

Since: Sep 08

Minneapolis

#988 May 6, 2013
Mike wrote:
<quoted text>
Abortion is unethical because it is prima facie wrong to kill innocent homo sapiens.
This innocent homo sapien has set up house within the confines of another homo sapiens body which results in a medical condition for what I suppose you would define as the guilty homo sapien?

Since: Apr 11

North Hollywood, CA

#989 May 6, 2013
Mike wrote:
<quoted text>
Well first of all you said your argument was based on science. It clearly isn't. Thank you for admitting that. I still hold to my previous argument. Nowhere in it did I mention God, Jesus, Krishna, Allah or any other religious/spiritual figure/text. Just because a religion argues for something doesn't mean that it is only a religious argument. For instance every religion teaches us that it is wrong to steal. That does not make an argument against stealing automatically religious. Religions probably argue for a lot of things you might support food-stamps drunk driving laws ect. There are pro-life atheist and agnostics who based their argument on secular ethics/human rights. A feti are homo sapiens which can be the only objective criteria as to what makes someone human. Since they are human they are entitled to moral consideration and human rights. Any other criteria is completely arbitrary like I said before. If you argue that a fetus isn't human because it hasn't been born yet/breathing/viable/self aware/capable of feeling pain ect. you are just making up arbitrary criteria as too what makes someone human.
I don't argue about the humanity of the fetus. As long as it is inside a woman's body, it should be her choice to keep it there or not.

“Define Necessity”

Since: Mar 13

FOR YOURSELF

#990 May 6, 2013
Mike wrote:
<quoted text>
Your going to resort to hate filled bashing of homosexuals to settle your debates now. That is not very tolerant or mature.
You're going to resort to completely ignoring my points, to avoid debate now. That is not very interesting, or effective.

“Define Necessity”

Since: Mar 13

FOR YOURSELF

#991 May 6, 2013
Mike wrote:
<quoted text>
Look a fetus is a homo sapiens. That is the only science I have quoted and it is true so I'm not making it up. I have not invented any terms just quoted the dictionary. I have already stated my argument. There is nothing scientifically inaccurate in it.
I return with Bitner's very pertinent question: Why, in your opinion, is it inherently wrong to kill Homo Sapiens (Sapiens)?

And my own as well: Why is it okay to kill embryos in Petri dishes, but not the ones in a woman's body?

“Define Necessity”

Since: Mar 13

FOR YOURSELF

#992 May 6, 2013
Mike wrote:
<quoted text>
Like I figured, "no argument." pooh-poohing fallacy; reasoning error where one is trying to dismiss an argument by not responding to it
No wonder you're familiar with this fallacy...it seems to be your go-to argument.

“Define Necessity”

Since: Mar 13

FOR YOURSELF

#993 May 6, 2013
Mike wrote:
<quoted text>
I'm not crying about it. Just pointing out that you are using the logical fallacy of attacking the person.
Are you trying to gear up for a test in Logic 101?

Hope you have better luck on the test than you're having here, chum. At least you have the fallacies down...but the point of a debate is to avoid them - not to rely on them.

Just saying.
Mike

Belleville, IL

#994 May 6, 2013
dedbebbies wrote:
<quoted text>Are you trying to gear up for a test in Logic 101?
Hope you have better luck on the test than you're having here, chum. At least you have the fallacies down...but the point of a debate is to avoid them - not to rely on them.
Just saying.
What logical fallacy have I committed. Please point it out to me.
P1 It is prima facie wrong to kill homo sapiens.
P2 Abortion kills homo sapiens.
C. Abortion is wrong.

If you think there is a fallacy there you need to take a class in logic. You may disagree with the premise. But there is still no formal fallacy being committed in my argument.
Mike

Belleville, IL

#995 May 6, 2013
Morgana 9 wrote:
<quoted text>
This innocent homo sapien has set up house within the confines of another homo sapiens body which results in a medical condition for what I suppose you would define as the guilty homo sapien?
A fetus is innocent. Here is the definition of innocent according to the free online dictionary.

in·no·cent (n-snt)
adj.
1. Uncorrupted by evil, malice, or wrongdoing; sinless: an innocent child.
2.
a. Not guilty of a specific crime or offense; legally blameless: was innocent of all charges.
b. Within, allowed by, or sanctioned by the law; lawful.
3.
a. Not dangerous or harmful; innocuous: an innocent prank.
b. Candid; straightforward: a child's innocent stare.
4.
a. Not experienced or worldly; naive.
b. Betraying or suggesting no deception or guile; artless.
5.
a. Not exposed to or familiar with something specified; ignorant: American tourists wholly innocent of French.
b. Unaware: She remained innocent of the complications she had caused.
6. Lacking, deprived, or devoid of something: a novel innocent of literary merit.

“And the Horse You Rode in On”

Since: Sep 08

Minneapolis

#996 May 7, 2013
Mike wrote:
<quoted text>
A fetus is innocent. Here is the definition of innocent according to the free online dictionary.
in·no·cent (n-snt)
adj.
1. Uncorrupted by evil, malice, or wrongdoing; sinless: an innocent child.
2.
a. Not guilty of a specific crime or offense; legally blameless: was innocent of all charges.
b. Within, allowed by, or sanctioned by the law; lawful.
3.
a. Not dangerous or harmful; innocuous: an innocent prank.
b. Candid; straightforward: a child's innocent stare.
4.
a. Not experienced or worldly; naive.
b. Betraying or suggesting no deception or guile; artless.
5.
a. Not exposed to or familiar with something specified; ignorant: American tourists wholly innocent of French.
b. Unaware: She remained innocent of the complications she had caused.
6. Lacking, deprived, or devoid of something: a novel innocent of literary merit.
Gee thanks, but that is an EPIC FAIL in response to my question.

But hey, I will play along with your word game, here is the definition of guilty as stated from dictionary.com :

guilt·y [gil-tee] Show IPA
adjective, guilt·i·er, guilt·i·est.
1.
having committed an offense, crime, violation, or wrong, especially against moral or penal law; justly subject to a certain accusation or penalty; culpable: The jury found her guilty of murder.
2.
characterized by, connected with, or involving guilt: guilty intent.
3.
having or showing a sense of guilt, whether real or imagined: a guilty conscience.
Synonyms
2. criminal, felonious, culpable; illicit, nefarious.

So, you are saying that a pregnant woman is "guilty" and should be penalized?

“Blessed Be”

Since: Jun 07

Location hidden

#997 May 7, 2013
Mike wrote:
<quoted text>
It is prima facie wrong to kill homo sapiens that have done nothing wrong. This is a self evident premise. I shouldn't have to argue any farther.
Aside from the fact that "innocence" was not part of your original premise....WHY is it wrong?

I know, you want to make assertions and not have them challenged. Tough.

“And the Horse You Rode in On”

Since: Sep 08

Minneapolis

#998 May 7, 2013
Mike wrote:
<quoted text>
What logical fallacy have I committed. Please point it out to me.
P1 It is prima facie wrong to kill homo sapiens.
P2 Abortion kills homo sapiens.
C. Abortion is wrong.
If you think there is a fallacy there you need to take a class in logic. You may disagree with the premise. But there is still no formal fallacy being committed in my argument.
How is it right to force a woman/girl to gestate and maintain a medical condition against her will for the entire benefit of another? Where does the woman/girl benefit? Do you believe in forced labour?

Good questions! Before we proceed lets take a look at the meaning of the word "slave":

slave (sle&#618;v)

n., v. slaved, slav•ing. n.
1. a person who is the property of and wholly subject to another; bond servant.
2. a person entirely under the domination of some influence or person.
3. a drudge: a housekeeping slave.
4. a mechanism under control of and repeating the actions of a similar mechanism.

“And the Horse You Rode in On”

Since: Sep 08

Minneapolis

#999 May 7, 2013
Bitner wrote:
<quoted text>
Aside from the fact that "innocence" was not part of your original premise....WHY is it wrong?
I know, you want to make assertions and not have them challenged. Tough.
Just a guess here Bit...but I got a sneaky hunch it has something to do with this:

1. Uncorrupted by evil, malice, or wrongdoing; sinless:

; o)

Let the dance begin!!

“Define Necessity”

Since: Mar 13

FOR YOURSELF

#1000 May 7, 2013
Mike wrote:
<quoted text>
What logical fallacy have I committed. Please point it out to me.
P1 It is prima facie wrong to kill homo sapiens.
P2 Abortion kills homo sapiens.
C. Abortion is wrong.
If you think there is a fallacy there you need to take a class in logic. You may disagree with the premise. But there is still no formal fallacy being committed in my argument.
You are beginning with a false statement.

Go ask your logic prof what constitutes a false statement, and get back to me.
Mike

Belleville, IL

#1001 May 7, 2013
Morgana 9 wrote:
<quoted text>
How is it right to force a woman/girl to gestate and maintain a medical condition against her will for the entire benefit of another? Where does the woman/girl benefit? Do you believe in forced labour?
Good questions! Before we proceed lets take a look at the meaning of the word "slave":
slave (sle&#618;v)
n., v. slaved, slav•ing. n.
1. a person who is the property of and wholly subject to another; bond servant.
2. a person entirely under the domination of some influence or person.
3. a drudge: a housekeeping slave.
4. a mechanism under control of and repeating the actions of a similar mechanism.
Being forced to remain pregnant does not make someone. Wholly subject to another. A fetus can't tell a person where to go what to eat where to work ect. Freedom is still almost entirely kept. Someone who has become pregnant through consensual sex has freely gotten them self into a situation out of their own accord.
Mike

Belleville, IL

#1002 May 7, 2013
dedbebbies wrote:
<quoted text>You are beginning with a false statement.
Go ask your logic prof what constitutes a false statement, and get back to me.
Well that is where we disagree. I think it is prima facie wrong to kill homo sapiens. You think it is perfectly fine to torture and or kill homo sapiens based on the fact that they are seen as inconvenient. Your position seems much more morally questionable than mine.
Mike

Belleville, IL

#1003 May 7, 2013
Morgana 9 wrote:
<quoted text>
Gee thanks, but that is an EPIC FAIL in response to my question.
But hey, I will play along with your word game, here is the definition of guilty as stated from dictionary.com :
guilt·y [gil-tee] Show IPA
adjective, guilt·i·er, guilt·i·est.
1.
having committed an offense, crime, violation, or wrong, especially against moral or penal law; justly subject to a certain accusation or penalty; culpable: The jury found her guilty of murder.
2.
characterized by, connected with, or involving guilt: guilty intent.
3.
having or showing a sense of guilt, whether real or imagined: a guilty conscience.
Synonyms
2. criminal, felonious, culpable; illicit, nefarious.
So, you are saying that a pregnant woman is "guilty" and should be penalized?
You don't have to be guilty of anything in order to follow the law. Telling someone they cannot steal because it is illegal is not a punishment or a fine. Telling someone they cannot get an abortion is also not a punishment or a fine.

“Define Necessity”

Since: Mar 13

FOR YOURSELF

#1004 May 7, 2013
Mike wrote:
<quoted text>
Well that is where we disagree.
Oh, we disagree in a plethora of other places, Mike, but let's not get ahead of ourselves.
Mike wrote:
<quoted text>
I think it is prima facie wrong to kill homo sapiens..
Well, you have a damn funny way of going about convincing me that is actually what you think. Because from what you say, it seems you only have a 'prima facie' problem with killing Homo Sapiens (Sapiens) if and before they exit a womb.
Mike wrote:
<quoted text>
You think it is perfectly fine to torture and or kill homo sapiens.
Now we're getting somewhere. I actually DO think it is perfectly fine to kill and torture people - who have harmed my family, or who attempt to invade my country, or who have committed heinous crimes against the rest of us. I have no problem admitting that fact. But unlike you, I don't see a random fetus as a person, either. My own? Absolutely. Someone else's? I leave that up to the woman within whom that fetus resides. It was my great privilege to have children...but I'm not so foolish as to believe every other woman on earth "SHOULD" feel that way. So many don't. I don't believe in obliging folks to give birth to children whom they view as a random facet of biology. I hope every child born is born into the joy, love, and acceptance of his/her parents. So I support the choice not to be a parent if the prospective parent isn't joyful, loving, and accepting.

Don't like it? Tough nuggets, bud.
Mike wrote:
<quoted text>
based on the fact that they are seen as inconvenient..
I don't know about you, but I'm not arrogant enough to define convenience, for anyone other than me.
Mike wrote:
<quoted text>
Your position seems much more morally questionable than mine.
Depends on one's morals, Mike. In my set of morals, obliging women to give birth to unwanted kids, is evil and untenable. I believe lack of love is the greatest destroyer of the soul. And I believe that every born child should know what it is like to be cherished.

Since: Jun 08

Atrisco Village

#1005 May 8, 2013
Mike wrote:
<quoted text>
I will try to make this even more simple.
You support laws against murder right?
Murder isn't murder.

And a fetus is a human organism but it isn't a person.

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