Abortion and the Idol of the Self

Abortion and the Idol of the Self

Posted in the Abortion Forum

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Deborah

Minneapolis, MN

#1 Jul 20, 2013
By David French
July 1, 2013 3:35 PM

Let’s imagine for a moment that you find yourself in a difficult position — one that has led to abject panic about your future career, the fate of a valued relationship, or whether you’ll even be able to make ends meet. Let’s also stipulate that your difficulty is largely your fault. You made some short-sighted, bad decisions that precipitated the crisis, but questions of responsibility are moot now — all that exists is the crisis, the stress that has overtaken your life. To be sure, there’s a way forward, a way out of the crisis, but even the most attractive options will require considerable commitment for most of a year — with potential for prolonged heartache.

Then, one evening you’re offered a way out. Your most recent troubles can go away, for the cost of a few hundred dollars and most of an afternoon. The catch? Someone has to die.

Oh, it’s not anyone you know or will ever know. They don’t have family that knows them, they don’t have spouses or children, and they’ll be so thoroughly unmourned that no one will even have to pay for a funeral. Decide now, and they might not even feel pain. Wait longer, and they’ll feel pain — but only for a little while.

You don’t have to see the body. You won’t know the person’s name. No one will have to know what you did. Indeed, the law strictly protects your confidentiality. An anonymous kill ... then you’re free.

Ask the vast majority of rational people if they’d kill another person to change their own circumstances for the better, and they’d quickly answer no. Put them in the actual situation, and we know that millions answer yes. We know because of abortion....

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/352492/a...

Since: Jul 10

Location hidden

#2 Jul 22, 2013
It's just a mass of unwanted tissue, like a tumor. With today's DNA technology some tumors have the potential to be a person.

Apparently you're living in another century. Sex is a sport and has less to do with procreation than fun and pleasure. Unwanted embryos are a byproduct of casual sex. If the mass of humanity overtaking the planet existed pain and problem free abortion would be seen in another light but as it stands people have taken over the earth like a dangerous fungus and every attempt to limit the population is a plus.

Aborted fetuses are far luckier than children born into poverty with no positive future. When I read about toddlers killed by their mother's boyfriends for wetting their pants abortion would have been a kinder lesser evil.
Ocean56

AOL

#3 Jul 22, 2013
Deborah wrote:
By David French
July 1, 2013 3:35 PM
Let’s imagine for a moment that you find yourself in a difficult position — one that has led to abject panic about your future career, the fate of a valued relationship, or whether you’ll even be able to make ends meet. Let’s also stipulate that your difficulty is largely your fault. You made some short-sighted, bad decisions that precipitated the crisis, but questions of responsibility are moot now — all that exists is the crisis, the stress that has overtaken your life. To be sure, there’s a way forward, a way out of the crisis, but even the most attractive options will require considerable commitment for most of a year — with potential for prolonged heartache.
Then, one evening you’re offered a way out. Your most recent troubles can go away, for the cost of a few hundred dollars and most of an afternoon. The catch? Someone has to die.
Oh, it’s not anyone you know or will ever know. They don’t have family that knows them, they don’t have spouses or children, and they’ll be so thoroughly unmourned that no one will even have to pay for a funeral. Decide now, and they might not even feel pain. Wait longer, and they’ll feel pain — but only for a little while.
You don’t have to see the body. You won’t know the person’s name. No one will have to know what you did. Indeed, the law strictly protects your confidentiality. An anonymous kill ... then you’re free.
Ask the vast majority of rational people if they’d kill another person to change their own circumstances for the better, and they’d quickly answer no. Put them in the actual situation, and we know that millions answer yes. We know because of abortion....
http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/352492/a...
Oh PLEASE. It's another self-righteous WHINE from a male anti-choicer who will never personally experience the physical hardships of pregnancy. Ho-hum.

No matter how many guys whine about abortion, it is still each WOMAN's decision whether to continue a pregnancy or not. Sperm donors don't get to force a woman to gestate a pregnancy any more than they can force a woman to abort one.

Motherhood: OPTIONAL, not required.

Since: Jul 10

Location hidden

#4 Jul 22, 2013
Deborah wrote:
Ask the vast majority of rational people if they’d kill another person to change their own circumstances for the better, and they’d quickly answer no.
Chances are you did not actaully ask anyone, you just assumed. That may be where you were lead off course. America is a Capitalist society where improving your circumstances and or making money off of others at any expense is legal. George Zimmerman killed another to better his plight - legally with the grace of god.

Morgana 9

“And the Horse You Rode in On”

Since: Sep 08

Minneapolis

#5 Jul 22, 2013
Follow the bouncing ball:

Abortion and the Idol of the Self

By DAVID FENCH

David is a Senior Counsel at the American Center for Law and Justice. A graduate of Harvard Law School, he is a former Senior Counsel for the Alliance Defense Fund, and a past president of the Foundation of Individual Rights in Education. He has taught at Cornell Law School and served as a commercial litigation partner in the firm of Greenebaum, Doll & McDonald. His legal practice is concentrated on constitutional law and the international law of armed conflict, and he is licensed to practice before the Supreme Court of the United States. David is the author of multiple books, including Home and Away: A Story of Family in a Time of War and A Season for Justice: Defending the Rights of the Christian Home, Church, and School. David is a regular contributor to National Review Online, a columnist for Patheos, and he has written numerous op-eds and articles, including pieces in the Washington Post, Washington Times, Human Events, Townhall, New York Post, New York Daily News, Boston Herald, and Philadelphia Daily News. Regularly interviewed by both print and broadcast media, David has appeared on ABC World News Tonight, The O’Reilly Factor, CNN Newsroom, The Fox Report with Shepard Smith, and Special Report with Brit Hume, among others. A regular guest on talk radio programs, David has been interviewed on National Public Radio and by numerous hosts, including Michael Medved, Hugh Hewitt, Laura Ingraham, Dennis Prager, James Dobson, and Michael Reagan. David has guest-hosted a number of radio programs, including the Hugh Hewitt Show. David is the 2012 recipient of the American Conservative Union’s Ronald Reagan Award.

http://aclj.org/writers/david-french

The end of the article states:

""The precursor for abortion is the idol of the self. Mandatory sonograms and other measures can impact the softer hearts among us — and are thus valuable for that reason alone — but abortion won’t end until the idol is destroyed.

And for that, good pastors are far more necessary than even the best pundits or politicians""".

AHHH pastors enter the scene! Mandatory sonograms and other measures can impact the softer hearts among us? Who exactly are they labeling the "softer hearts"? Why are they not trying to soften the hearts of men? Would that be too emasculating? Again religion preaching their subservient, submissive and selflessness message to the gals while they intend to enforce it!!

Thanks for the article Debbie....you prove our point!! It is not about women or their best interests or their well being. It is ALL about male based religion!

Thanks again Debs!
Dan

Omaha, NE

#6 Jul 22, 2013
Morgana 9 wrote:
Follow the bouncing ball:
Abortion and the Idol of the Self
By DAVID FENCH
David is a Senior Counsel at the American Center for Law and Justice. A graduate of Harvard Law School, he is a former Senior Counsel for the Alliance Defense Fund, and a past president of the Foundation of Individual Rights in Education. He has taught at Cornell Law School and served as a commercial litigation partner in the firm of Greenebaum, Doll & McDonald. His legal practice is concentrated on constitutional law and the international law of armed conflict, and he is licensed to practice before the Supreme Court of the United States. David is the author of multiple books, including Home and Away: A Story of Family in a Time of War and A Season for Justice: Defending the Rights of the Christian Home, Church, and School. David is a regular contributor to National Review Online, a columnist for Patheos, and he has written numerous op-eds and articles, including pieces in the Washington Post, Washington Times, Human Events, Townhall, New York Post, New York Daily News, Boston Herald, and Philadelphia Daily News. Regularly interviewed by both print and broadcast media, David has appeared on ABC World News Tonight, The O’Reilly Factor, CNN Newsroom, The Fox Report with Shepard Smith, and Special Report with Brit Hume, among others. A regular guest on talk radio programs, David has been interviewed on National Public Radio and by numerous hosts, including Michael Medved, Hugh Hewitt, Laura Ingraham, Dennis Prager, James Dobson, and Michael Reagan. David has guest-hosted a number of radio programs, including the Hugh Hewitt Show. David is the 2012 recipient of the American Conservative Union’s Ronald Reagan Award.
http://aclj.org/writers/david-french
The end of the article states:
""The precursor for abortion is the idol of the self. Mandatory sonograms and other measures can impact the softer hearts among us — and are thus valuable for that reason alone — but abortion won’t end until the idol is destroyed.
And for that, good pastors are far more necessary than even the best pundits or politicians""".
AHHH pastors enter the scene! Mandatory sonograms and other measures can impact the softer hearts among us? Who exactly are they labeling the "softer hearts"? Why are they not trying to soften the hearts of men? Would that be too emasculating? Again religion preaching their subservient, submissive and selflessness message to the gals while they intend to enforce it!!
Thanks for the article Debbie....you prove our point!! It is not about women or their best interests or their well being. It is ALL about male based religion!
Thanks again Debs!
..........and the "autonomy" crowd points the finger back at men, yet again.

It never stops, does it?

Morgana 9

“And the Horse You Rode in On”

Since: Sep 08

Minneapolis

#7 Jul 22, 2013
Dan wrote:
<quoted text>
..........and the "autonomy" crowd points the finger back at men, yet again.
It never stops, does it?
No, it never stops with male based religion. They have two sets of standards. Men rule, and women are to obey. Women are to be selfless, subservient and submissive. It is very clear, as you well know.
Dan

Omaha, NE

#8 Jul 22, 2013
Morgana 9 wrote:
<quoted text>
No, it never stops with male based religion. They have two sets of standards. Men rule, and women are to obey. Women are to be selfless, subservient and submissive. It is very clear, as you well know.
Is the author's premise incorrect?

You've studiously avoided commenting on that-you simply dismiss him as he makes reference to pastors.

Morgana 9

“And the Horse You Rode in On”

Since: Sep 08

Minneapolis

#9 Jul 22, 2013
Dan wrote:
<quoted text>
Is the author's premise incorrect?
You've studiously avoided commenting on that-you simply dismiss him as he makes reference to pastors.
Yes, his premise that women should be selfless, that a zygote/fetus is a someone, and that a pregnancy is largely a womans "fault" is incorrect indeed.

All based on religion as he ends his article. Why deny it Dan? Because you also are in a male based religious stupor?
Dan

Omaha, NE

#10 Jul 22, 2013
Morgana 9 wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes, his premise that women should be selfless, that a zygote/fetus is a someone, and that a pregnancy is largely a womans "fault" is incorrect indeed.
All based on religion as he ends his article. Why deny it Dan? Because you also are in a male based religious stupor?
I didn't catch where he places gender limits on the ills of taking a life here.

A fetus is a human life. No one makes a case for anything to the contrary.

Women DO participate in the act of being impregnated.

These aren't observations based upon religion, are they?
Ocean56

AOL

#11 Jul 22, 2013
Dan wrote:
Women DO participate in the act of being impregnated. These aren't observations based upon religion, are they?
The implication here being is that women who consent to having sex should be FORCED to continue a pregnancy if one results. Whether the woman WANTED to get pregnant or not obviously doesn't matter to either you or this anti-choice male religionist author.

To you and this guy, women should be content to be nothing more than mindless baby factories for the church or the state. Sorry, bub, we're NOT content with it.
Dan

Omaha, NE

#12 Jul 22, 2013
Ocean56 wrote:
<quoted text>
The implication here being is that women who consent to having sex should be FORCED to continue a pregnancy if one results. Whether the woman WANTED to get pregnant or not obviously doesn't matter to either you or this anti-choice male religionist author.
To you and this guy, women should be content to be nothing more than mindless baby factories for the church or the state. Sorry, bub, we're NOT content with it.
That's not the implication here.

"Mindless" springs to mind immediately when I see Morgana and you throwing responsibility onto anyone but the woman here. She, to you, is an automation who cannot control her own reproductive life no matter how dire her circumstances should she become pregnant. Everyone's supposed to grant license to whatever she does, without her actually having to be responsible.

Morgana 9

“And the Horse You Rode in On”

Since: Sep 08

Minneapolis

#13 Jul 22, 2013
Dan wrote:
<quoted text>
I didn't catch where he places gender limits on the ills of taking a life here.
A fetus is a human life. No one makes a case for anything to the contrary.
Women DO participate in the act of being impregnated.
These aren't observations based upon religion, are they?
Dan wrote:
<quoted text>
I didn't catch where he places gender limits on the ills of taking a life here.
I didn't catch where he was indicating men in this statement:
""Why? Because people love themselves so much that they’re willing to kill another person to keep a boyfriend, to maintain a standard of living, or for many, many other reasons — none of which would ever justify killing another person outside the womb""".
Dan wrote:
<quoted text>
A fetus is a human life. No one makes a case for anything to the contrary.
Humans do not have a right to rely on anothers bodily organs for their survival against their will. A fetus relies entirely on a woman/girls body which causes a medical condition for the female host.
Dan wrote:
<quoted text>
Women DO participate in the act of being impregnated.
David French's comment:
""Let’s also stipulate that your difficulty is largely your fault.""

He argues a lot like you Dan.....it is about "fault".
Dan wrote:
<quoted text>
These aren't observations based upon religion, are they?
David French's most certainly are:

""For quite some time we’ve conducted the abortion debate as if people weren’t fallen, as if mankind’s nature weren’t inherently sinful.""

""The pastor looks and sees the futility of persuasion absent repentence.""

""And for that, good pastors are far more necessary than even the best pundits or politicians"".

Morgana 9

“And the Horse You Rode in On”

Since: Sep 08

Minneapolis

#14 Jul 22, 2013
Dan wrote:
<quoted text>
That's not the implication here.
"Mindless" springs to mind immediately when I see Morgana and you throwing responsibility onto anyone but the woman here. She, to you, is an automation who cannot control her own reproductive life no matter how dire her circumstances should she become pregnant. Everyone's supposed to grant license to whatever she does, without her actually having to be responsible.
Abortion is taking responsibility, just not the responsibility you demand. A woman/girl is taking responsibility for HER life and circumstances.

Your idea of responsibility is punishment Dan. You have made this quite clear.

Since: Jul 10

Location hidden

#15 Jul 22, 2013
Dan wrote:
A fetus is a human life. No one makes a case for anything to the contrary.
I make a case and millions of others do as well.

I do not believe or feel or think or consider a fetus to be a human life.

Since: Jul 10

Location hidden

#16 Jul 22, 2013
it merely has the potential... just like an unfertilzed egg or sperm.
Dan

Omaha, NE

#17 Jul 22, 2013
Morgana 9 wrote:
<quoted text>
Abortion is taking responsibility, just not the responsibility you demand. A woman/girl is taking responsibility for HER life and circumstances.
Your idea of responsibility is punishment Dan. You have made this quite clear.
I'm not promulgating killing another human life as "responsibility". That's your argument-that sounds pretty punitive to me.
Dan

Omaha, NE

#18 Jul 22, 2013
moonjack wrote:
<quoted text>
I make a case and millions of others do as well.
I do not believe or feel or think or consider a fetus to be a human life.
It's definitely alive, so provide your rationale for it not being human, and provide us with that species it actually is.

Thanks

Since: Jul 10

Location hidden

#19 Jul 22, 2013
tomato / tomatoe

Your 'rational' for why it is human will be a voluntary choice in your mind just as my understanding is a thought in mine.

Morgana 9

“And the Horse You Rode in On”

Since: Sep 08

Minneapolis

#20 Jul 22, 2013
Dan wrote:
<quoted text>
I'm not promulgating killing another human life as "responsibility". That's your argument-that sounds pretty punitive to me.
You are promulgating pregnancy as punishment/responsibility. You ignore entirely the health and best interests of the woman/girl.

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