Maryland Gay Marriage Could Hinge on ...

Maryland Gay Marriage Could Hinge on Black Churches

There are 9646 comments on the The Skanner story from Mar 1, 2012, titled Maryland Gay Marriage Could Hinge on Black Churches. In it, The Skanner reports that:

With Maryland poised to legalize gay marriage, some conservative opponents and religious leaders are counting on members of their congregations, especially in black churches, to upend the legislation at the polls this fall.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at The Skanner.

“A JOURNEY OF A THOUSAND MILES”

Since: Aug 08

MUST BEGIN WITH A SINGLE STEP!

#8310 Nov 22, 2012
Brian_G wrote:
<quoted text>You could say the same thing of Muslims or sibling partners, that doesn't make it good.
Same sex marriage is bad for civilization. Watch and see.
Brian, you have no case and Marriage Equality is happening.......and all it can be is GOOD for society because it finally starts to treat all LEGAL marriages the same!!!

“Together for 24, legal for 5”

Since: Sep 07

Littleton, NH

#8311 Nov 22, 2012
Brian_G wrote:
<quoted text>You could say the same thing of Muslims...
So let me try that: There is no reason to pity Muslims and there is no reason to oppose sibling marriages.

Well,the first part is certainly true. But I'm not surprised that you find something wrong with it.

As for sibling marriage (a) it has nothing to do with Muslims nor with gays. So I don't know why you bring it up, except for your penchant to associate things you don't like with things most others don't like.

And yes, there are plenty of potential problems with sibling marriages. I am not one to judge harshly truly committed and truly happy siblings, but there is so much potential for abusive relationships that it makes sense for society to discourage them.

“You wish you were here!!”

Since: May 09

The OC

#8312 Nov 22, 2012
Quest wrote:
<quoted text>
I wrote it because it'[s correct. What changes for married straight couples if gay couples marry?
Nothing.
What legal or civil issues are created if we stop worrying about the genders in a marriage?
None.
I made no claims about history, only about the here and now. Polygamy is certainly historical, but I suspect you don't support it. Marrying off children was certainly historical, but I doubt you support that, either.
Within many of our lifetimes, banning interracial marriage was historical. It's not practiced now, is it?
The ONLY question is whether or not allowing same sex couples to marry will harm society in any way. And even those against the idea know that's just not the case.
Society isn't harmed by a more secure population. More secure families IMPROVE society and how it functions.
If you believe that marriage is bad for the families that participate in it, and detrimental to society in general prove it. Please use only peer reviewed studies and stats.
Otherwise, you sound a bit disingenuous.
Mostly true. The question comes down to "does SSM harm society"? My answer...yes it does. It further opens the door to your friends teaching your harmful ideas about sexuality to other people's grade school kids against their wishes.

Unfortunately, the gay lobby is not solely about your rights. Its ultimate goal is to change the public's perception about homosexuality. This goal is to be achieved by any means necessary.

http://www.healthiersf.org/LGBTQ/InTheClassro...

“You wish you were here!!”

Since: May 09

The OC

#8313 Nov 22, 2012
Not Yet Equal wrote:
<quoted text>
I'm pleasantly surprised you would accept the well documented information provided from the 2 separate sites noted above. Here is further documentation and resources from a third site, and there are entire books which provide even further documentation of the historical records:
"Records of Christian same sex unions have been discovered in such diverse archives as those in the Vatican, in St. Petersburg, in Paris, in Istanbul and in the Sinai, covering a thousand-years from the 8th to the 18th century.
The Dominican missionary and Prior, Jacques Goar (1601-1653), includes such ceremonies in a printed collection of Greek Orthodox prayer books,“Euchologion Sive Rituale Graecorum Complectens Ritus Et Ordines Divinae Liturgiae”(Paris, 1667).
Prof. John Boswell3, the late Chairman of Yale University’s history department, discovered that in addition to heterosexual marriage ceremonies in ancient Christian church liturgical documents, there were also ceremonies called the "Office of Same-Sex Union" (10th and 11th century), and the "Order for Uniting Two Men" (11th and 12th century).
These church rites had all the symbols of a heterosexual marriage: the whole community gathered in a church, a blessing of the couple before the altar was conducted with their right hands joined, holy vows were exchanged, a priest officiatied in the taking of the Eucharist and a wedding feast for the guests was celebrated afterwards. These elements all appear in contemporary illustrations of the holy union of the Byzantine Warrior-Emperor, Basil the First (867-886 CE) and his companion John.
Such same gender Christian sanctified unions also took place in Ireland in the late 12th and early 13th centuries, as the chronicler Gerald of Wales (‘Geraldus Cambrensis’) recorded.
Same-sex unions in pre-modern Europe list in great detail some same gender ceremonies found in ancient church liturgical documents. One Greek 13th century rite, "Order for Solemn Same-Sex Union", invoked St. Serge and St. Bacchus, and called on God to "vouchsafe unto these, Thy servants [N and N], the grace to love one another and to abide without hate and not be the cause of scandal all the days of their lives, with the help of the Holy Mother of God, and all Thy saints". The ceremony concludes: "And they shall kiss the Holy Gospel and each other, and it shall be concluded".
Another 14th century Serbian Slavonic "Office of the Same Sex Union", uniting two men or two women, had the couple lay their right hands on the Gospel while having a crucifix placed in their left hands. After kissing the Gospel, the couple were then required to kiss each other, after which the priest, having raised up the Eucharist, would give them both communion.
While homosexuality was technically illegal from late Roman times, homophobic writings didn’t appear in Western Europe until the late 14th century. Even then, church-consecrated same sex unions continued to take place.
At St. John Lateran in Rome (traditionally the Pope's parish church) in 1578, as many as thirteen same-gender couples were joined during a high Mass and with the cooperation of the Vatican clergy, "taking communion together, using the same nuptial Scripture, after which they slept and ate together" according to a contemporary report. Another woman to woman union is recorded in Dalmatia in the 18th century.
http://www.christianity-revealed.com/cr/files...
Oh...and now the site that has the tagline "Exposing the Fiction...Christianity Revealed"!! You are really convincing me now.
Mona Lott

West New York, NJ

#8314 Nov 22, 2012
WaterBoarder wrote:
<quoted text>
Mostly true. The question comes down to "does SSM harm society"? My answer...yes it does.
Isn't it odd that no one has ever presented any evidence in Court to prove your assertion.....
Mona Lott

West New York, NJ

#8315 Nov 22, 2012
WaterBoarder wrote:
<quoted text>
Oh...and now the site that has the tagline "Exposing the Fiction...Christianity Revealed"!! You are really convincing me now.
Really? I don't think it is possible for you to accept that you've drank the Kool-Aid. Because then it would be YOUR fault. And you can't be wrong... it MUST be everybody else.

Since: Jun 11

AOL

#8316 Nov 22, 2012
WaterBoarder wrote:
<quoted text>
Oh...and now the site that has the tagline "Exposing the Fiction...Christianity Revealed"!! You are really convincing me now.
The 3 sites provided reference other works. It is not original thought or mere opinion. The documentation is available for anyone who is open to education. Your dismissal only shows you are unwilling to consider the historical documentation, not that the documents do not exist.

"Prejudices, it is well known, are most difficult to eradicate from the heart whose soil has never been loosened or fertilized by education; they grow there, firm as weeds among stones.” Charlotte Bronte

“You wish you were here!!”

Since: May 09

The OC

#8317 Nov 23, 2012
Not Yet Equal wrote:
<quoted text>
The 3 sites provided reference other works. It is not original thought or mere opinion. The documentation is available for anyone who is open to education. Your dismissal only shows you are unwilling to consider the historical documentation, not that the documents do not exist.
"Prejudices, it is well known, are most difficult to eradicate from the heart whose soil has never been loosened or fertilized by education; they grow there, firm as weeds among stones.” Charlotte Bronte
Well for starters, none of the "educational" information you posted to is new for me. I have been linked to that same stuff for years by your friends. Same gay propaganda...different websites. I especially like that "SSM sanctioned by the ancient church" article with that artwork of the two men with Christ. I have seen that at least a dozen times. It really makes the rounds with you guys.

Well since we are now linking each other to clearly biased websites - because hey...we are all open to "education" - here is one for you.

http://www.frc.org/get.cfm...

According to the well documented statistics of this particular article, gay relationships look pretty grim.

Are you "open" to this kind of "education" or is this just biased and hateful?
Mona Lott

West New York, NJ

#8318 Nov 23, 2012
WaterBoarder wrote:
<quoted text>
Well for starters, none of the "educational" information you posted to is new for me. I have been linked to that same stuff for years by your friends. Same gay propaganda...different websites. I especially like that "SSM sanctioned by the ancient church" article with that artwork of the two men with Christ. I have seen that at least a dozen times. It really makes the rounds with you guys.
Well since we are now linking each other to clearly biased websites - because hey...we are all open to "education" - here is one for you.
http://www.frc.org/get.cfm...
According to the well documented statistics of this particular article, gay relationships look pretty grim.
Are you "open" to this kind of "education" or is this just biased and hateful?
The FRC????????

Really?

Let's ask one of the founders what he thinks: GEORGE REEKERS. Well documented statistics? ahahahahha LMFAO George Reekers is a liar and a fraud and he was literally caught with his pants down.

Since: Aug 11

Location hidden

#8320 Nov 23, 2012
Caleb doesn't exist David. Why lie about your identity? Nobody believes your ridiculous BS either.

What a Jackass!!!!

EeeeHawwww.

“You wish you were here!!”

Since: May 09

The OC

#8321 Nov 23, 2012
Mona Lott wrote:
<quoted text>
The FRC????????
Really?
Let's ask one of the founders what he thinks: GEORGE REEKERS. Well documented statistics? ahahahahha LMFAO George Reekers is a liar and a fraud and he was literally caught with his pants down.
You don't understand Mona. It doesn't matter if that site is biased or unreliable (in your opinion). According to "Not Yet Equal" that site...

"...references other works. It is not original thought or mere opinion. The documentation is available for anyone who is OPEN TO EDUCATION. Your dismissal only shows you are unwilling to consider the historical documentation, not that the documents do not exist.

'Prejudices, it is well known, are most difficult to eradicate from the heart whose soil has never been loosened or fertilized by education; they grow there, firm as weeds among stones.' Charlotte Bronte"

Come on Mona! Don't be so prejudiced and closed to "education"!!
Mona Lott

West New York, NJ

#8322 Nov 23, 2012
WaterBoarder wrote:
<quoted text>
You don't understand Mona. It doesn't matter if that site is biased or unreliable (in your opinion). According to "Not Yet Equal" that site...
"...references other works. It is not original thought or mere opinion. The documentation is available for anyone who is OPEN TO EDUCATION. Your dismissal only shows you are unwilling to consider the historical documentation, not that the documents do not exist.
'Prejudices, it is well known, are most difficult to eradicate from the heart whose soil has never been loosened or fertilized by education; they grow there, firm as weeds among stones.' Charlotte Bronte"
Come on Mona! Don't be so prejudiced and closed to "education"!!
Since when do you claim to understand ANYTHING about the science and research methodology???? There is no discussion about the FRC having credibility, because they don't. The crap they put out has been thoroughly debunked, yet they continue to pump it out. I think it's time the gay community sued them for libel. FRC isn't "educating" anyone.

“You wish you were here!!”

Since: May 09

The OC

#8323 Nov 23, 2012
Mona Lott wrote:
<quoted text>
Since when do you claim to understand ANYTHING about the science and research methodology???? There is no discussion about the FRC having credibility, because they don't. The crap they put out has been thoroughly debunked, yet they continue to pump it out. I think it's time the gay community sued them for libel. FRC isn't "educating" anyone.
Hey "Not Yet Equal"...you need to jump in here. Mona is behaving in the same way you have accused me. When I dismissed the websites you linked to you wrote:

"The 3 sites provided reference other works. It is not original thought or mere opinion. The documentation is available for anyone who is open to education. Your dismissal only shows you are unwilling to consider the...documentation"

However, the article I linked has 56 properly documented references. Surely Mona is not open to "education" as you have accused me of.

Or could it be that when it's a liberal idea its "education" and "enlightenment" but when its a more conservative idea its "prejudice" and "ignorance"?

Hmmmm...I wonder.
Mona Lott

West New York, NJ

#8324 Nov 24, 2012
WaterBoarder wrote:
<quoted text>
Hey "Not Yet Equal"...you need to jump in here. Mona is behaving in the same way you have accused me. When I dismissed the websites you linked to you wrote:
"The 3 sites provided reference other works. It is not original thought or mere opinion. The documentation is available for anyone who is open to education. Your dismissal only shows you are unwilling to consider the...documentation"
However, the article I linked has 56 properly documented references. Surely Mona is not open to "education" as you have accused me of.
Or could it be that when it's a liberal idea its "education" and "enlightenment" but when its a more conservative idea its "prejudice" and "ignorance"?
Hmmmm...I wonder.
You simps crack me up. "properly documented references" to lies are still lies, you dolt.

“Yes WE Can! Yes we Will!”

Since: Jul 07

Baltimore, Md.

#8325 Nov 24, 2012
Not Yet Equal wrote:
While equal rights should never depend on any vote, Maryland has now approved equality through the legislative process, with aproval of the voters, ending the official defamation of its gay residents.
I was one who voted in favor.

“You wish you were here!!”

Since: May 09

The OC

#8326 Nov 24, 2012
Mona Lott wrote:
<quoted text>
You simps crack me up. "properly documented references" to lies are still lies, you dolt.
You have no interest in the truth Mona. You probably didn't even take a look at these. All you want to do is throw around boring insults and take cheap shots.

1. Robert Gebeloff and Mary Jo Patterson, "Married and Gay Couples Are Not All that Different" Times-Picayune (November 22, 2003).
2. Matthew D. Bramlett and William D. Mosher, "First Marriage Dissolution, Divorce and Remarriage: United States," Advance Data, National Center for Health Statistics (May 31, 2001): 1.
3. Rose M. Kreider and Jason M. Fields, "Number, Timing, and Duration of Marriages and Divorces: 1996" Current Population Reports, P70-80, U.S. Census Bureau, Washington, D.C.(February 2002): 5.
4. "Largest Gay Study Examines 2004 Relationships," GayWire Latest Breaking Releases, www.glcensus.org .
5. Adrian Brune, "City Gays Skip Long-term Relationships: Study Says," Washington Blade (February 27, 04): 12.
6. Maria Xiridou, et al, "The Contribution of Steady and Casual Partnerships to the Incidence of HIV Infection among Homosexual Men in Amsterdam," AIDS 17 (2003): 1031.
7. M. Pollak, "Male Homosexuality," in Western Sexuality: Practice and Precept in Past and Present Times, ed. P. Aries and A. Bejin, translated by Anthony Forster (New York, NY: B. Blackwell, 1985): 40-61, cited by Joseph Nicolosi in Reparative Therapy of Male Homosexuality (Northvale, New Jersey: Jason Aronson Inc., 1991): 124, 125.
8. M. Saghir and E. Robins, Male and Female Homosexuality (Baltimore: Williams and Wilkins, 1973): 225; L. A. Peplau and H. Amaro, "Understanding Lesbian Relationships," in Homosexuality:Social, Psychological, and Biological Issues, ed. J. Weinrich and W. Paul (Beverly Hills: Sage, 1982).
9. Michael W. Wiederman, "Extramarital Sex: Prevalence and Correlates in a National Survey," Journal of Sex Research 34 (1997): 170.
10. E. O. Laumann et al., The Social Organization of Sexuality: Sexual Practices in the United States (Chicago:University of Chicago Press, 1994 ): 216.
11. "Sexual Habits of Americans Have Changed Dramatically in Ten Years: New National Survey Finds Both Men and Women More Committed and Caring" PR Newswire (August 4, 1994).
12. Xiridou, 1031.
13. A. P. Bell and M. S. Weinberg, Homosexualities: A Study of Diversity Among Men and Women (New York: Simon and Schuster, 1978), pp. 308, 309; See also A. P. Bell, M. S. Weinberg, and S. K. Hammersmith, Sexual Preference (Bloomington: Indiana University Press, 1981).
14. Paul Van de Ven et al., "A Comparative Demographic and Sexual Profile of Older Homosexually Active Men," Journal of Sex Research 34 (1997): 354.
15. "Sex Survey Results," Genre (October 1996), quoted in "Survey Finds 40 percent of Gay Men Have Had More Than 40 Sex Partners," Lambda Report, January 1998: 20.
16. Ryan Lee, "Gay Couples Likely to Try Non-monogamy, Study Shows," Washington Blade (August 22, 2003): 18.
17. David H. Demo, et al., editors, Handbook of Family Diversity (New York:Oxford University Press, 2000): 73.
18. David P. McWhirter and Andrew M. Mattison, The Male Couple: How Relationships Develop (Englewood Cliffs: Prentice-Hall, 1984): 252, 253.
19. Van de Ven et al., "A Comparative Demographic and Sexual Profile," 354.
20. Bradley P. Hayton, "To Marry or Not: The Legalization of Marriage and Adoption of Homosexual Couples," (Newport Beach: The Pacific Policy Institute, 1993): 9.
21. Dan Black, et al., "Demographics of the Gay and Lesbian Population in the United States: Evidence from Available Systematic Data Sources," Demography 37 (May 2000): 141.
22. "DP1. Profile of General Demographic Characteristics:Vermont" U.S. Census Bureau: Census 2000 Summary File 1 (SF 1) 100-Percent Data.

“CO2 is Gaseous Love”

Since: Dec 08

Home, sweet home.

#8327 Nov 24, 2012
nhjeff wrote:
So let me try that: There is no reason to pity Muslims and there is no reason to oppose sibling marriages.
Well,the first part is certainly true. But I'm not surprised that you find something wrong with it.
As for sibling marriage (a) it has nothing to do with Muslims nor with gays. So I don't know why you bring it up, except for your penchant to associate things you don't like with things most others don't like.
And yes, there are plenty of potential problems with sibling marriages. I am not one to judge harshly truly committed and truly happy siblings, but there is so much potential for abusive relationships that it makes sense for society to discourage them.
Polygamy is illegal; there is no such ban on same sex marriage.

The arguments for same sex marriage apply to incest marriage too.
Mona Lott

West New York, NJ

#8328 Nov 24, 2012
WaterBoarder wrote:
<quoted text>
You have no interest in the truth Mona. You probably didn't even take a look at these. All you want to do is throw around boring insults and take cheap shots.
1. Robert Gebeloff and Mary Jo Patterson, "Married and Gay Couples Are Not All that Different" Times-Picayune (November 22, 2003).
2. Matthew D. Bramlett and William D. Mosher, "First Marriage Dissolution, Divorce and Remarriage: United States," Advance Data, National Center for Health Statistics (May 31, 2001): 1.
3. Rose M. Kreider and Jason M. Fields, "Number, Timing, and Duration of Marriages and Divorces: 1996" Current Population Reports, P70-80, U.S. Census Bureau, Washington, D.C.(February 2002): 5.
4. "Largest Gay Study Examines 2004 Relationships," GayWire Latest Breaking Releases, www.glcensus.org .
5. Adrian Brune, "City Gays Skip Long-term Relationships: Study Says," Washington Blade (February 27, 04): 12.
6. Maria Xiridou, et al, "The Contribution of Steady and Casual Partnerships to the Incidence of HIV Infection among Homosexual Men in Amsterdam," AIDS 17 (2003): 1031.
7. M. Pollak, "Male Homosexuality," in Western Sexuality: Practice and Precept in Past and Present Times, ed. P. Aries and A. Bejin, translated by Anthony Forster (New York, NY: B. Blackwell, 1985): 40-61, cited by Joseph Nicolosi in Reparative Therapy of Male Homosexuality (Northvale, New Jersey: Jason Aronson Inc., 1991): 124, 125.
8. M. Saghir and E. Robins, Male and Female Homosexuality (Baltimore: Williams and Wilkins, 1973): 225; L. A. Peplau and H. Amaro, "Understanding Lesbian Relationships," in Homosexuality:Social, Psychological, and Biological Issues, ed. J. Weinrich and W. Paul (Beverly Hills: Sage, 1982).
9. Michael W. Wiederman, "Extramarital Sex: Prevalence and Correlates in a National Survey," Journal of Sex Research 34 (1997): 170.
10. E. O. Laumann et al., The Social Organization of Sexuality: Sexual Practices in the United States (Chicago:University of Chicago Press, 1994 ): 216.
11. "Sexual Habits of Americans Have Changed Dramatically in Ten Years: New National Survey Finds Both Men and Women More Committed and Caring" PR Newswire (August 4, 1994).
12. Xiridou, 1031.
13. A. P. Bell and M. S. Weinberg, Homosexualities: A Study of Diversity Among Men and Women (New York: Simon and Schuster, 1978), pp. 308, 309; See also A. P. Bell, M. S. Weinberg, and S. K. Hammersmith, Sexual Preference (Bloomington: Indiana University Press, 1981).
14. Paul Van de Ven et al., "A Comparative Demographic and Sexual Profile of Older Homosexually Active Men," Journal of Sex Research 34 (1997): 354.
15. "Sex Survey Results," Genre (October 1996), quoted in "Survey Finds 40 percent of Gay Men Have Had More Than 40 Sex Partners," Lambda Report, January 1998: 20.
16. Ryan Lee, "Gay Couples Likely to Try Non-monogamy, Study Shows," Washington Blade (August 22, 2003): 18.
17. David H. Demo, et al., editors, Handbook of Family Diversity (New York:Oxford University Press, 2000): 73.
18. David P. McWhirter and Andrew M. Mattison, The Male Couple: How Relationships Develop (Englewood Cliffs: Prentice-Hall, 1984): 252, 253.
19. Van de Ven et al., "A Comparative Demographic and Sexual Profile," 354.
20. Bradley P. Hayton, "To Marry or Not: The Legalization of Marriage and Adoption of Homosexual Couples," (Newport Beach: The Pacific Policy Institute, 1993): 9.
21. Dan Black, et al., "Demographics of the Gay and Lesbian Population in the United States: Evidence from Available Systematic Data Sources," Demography 37 (May 2000): 141.
22. "DP1. Profile of General Demographic Characteristics:Vermont" U.S. Census Bureau: Census 2000 Summary File 1 (SF 1) 100-Percent Data.
You wanna talk cheap shots? http://www.frc.org/get.cfm...

“Together for 24, legal for 5”

Since: Sep 07

Littleton, NH

#8329 Nov 24, 2012
Brian_G wrote:
<quoted text>Polygamy is illegal; there is no such ban on same sex marriage.
Indeed, same-sex marriage is now legal in nine states. In those states, as well as the other forty one, polygamous groups are allowed to live in whatever configurations they choose. As you point out, their relationships are not illegal, they are merely unrecognized.
The arguments for same sex marriage apply to incest marriage too.
It's not clear that all of the arguments for same-sex marriage apply to incestuous marriages, as well. For instance, a brother and sister may already be considered next-of-kin, so the marriage would be superfluous from some viewpoints. More importantly, the arguments against incestuous marriage do not apply to same-sex marriage. That is an astounding oversight in your thinking.

“Yes WE Can! Yes we Will!”

Since: Jul 07

Baltimore, Md.

#8330 Nov 24, 2012
Brian_G wrote:
<quoted text>Polygamy is illegal; there is no such ban on same sex marriage.
The arguments for same sex marriage apply to incest marriage too.
IN most states, same sex marriages are not legal. Hence there's a De Facto ban.
The paralllel between same sex marriage and incest marriage is a product less of logic than of your fevered imagination.

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