Atheism requires as much faith as rel...

Atheism requires as much faith as religion?

There are 258515 comments on the Webbunny tumblelog story from Jul 18, 2009, titled Atheism requires as much faith as religion?. In it, Webbunny tumblelog reports that:

Atheism requires as much faith as religion? bearvspuma : The only problem with this rationalization is that ita s assuming all athiests are so because theya re intelligent in the ways of science and reasoning and all people that believe in a form of god are unintelligent.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at Webbunny tumblelog.

RiversideRedneck

“Ditat Deus”

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#207222 Jan 24, 2014
wilderide wrote:
Without a sense of right or wrong, being obedient or disobedient are both equivalent.
Morality is subjective. What is right and wrong is also subjective.

You can obey a law without knowing if it's wrong or not.

Since: Sep 08

La Veta, CO

#207223 Jan 24, 2014
wilderide wrote:
<quoted text>
Without a sense of right or wrong, being obedient or disobedient are both equivalent.
That was kind a vague connection you make there.

You are a blind man walking a plank over a deep chasm you have no choice but to cross. You are guided by a voice telling you which and where to put your foot as you proceed. You must follow instructions to get across safely.

You think you can do it on your own and ignore the voice.

That is disobedience.

Is there any right or wrong involved other than in choice to listen on the personal level?

Since: Jul 10

Location hidden

#207224 Jan 24, 2014
Skombolis wrote:
<quoted text>It hasn't clearly been shown to show anything
These points are so stupid
Belief is based on faith
You may be making a few valid points and I am pleased that you have stated that believing means you could be wrong. It is hard to argue that. I don't believe there is a God, because so far man has never had conclusive evidence of there being one, and the things we have held to be true, which are taken from the book that fundamentalists will say is without error, because God authored or inspired it, have had some parts conclusively proved to not be true, so if the Bible being 100% is necessary for the proof of God (which I don't see it needs to be because very few Christians actually believe that anyway) then there cannot be a God. I do not have a belief in God but evidence to prove there is a God would certainly change my mind very quickly not because I was wanting to save myself from Hell, because I would not be interested in a God that had a condition of belief being that one goes to Hell for not believing, but just simply because something that has been shown to be true, I accept as being true. One of the monumental changes in human thinking occurred when man had differing opinions about the earth being flat, which to people, who had limited access to anything on the earth except within close walking distance, would seem to make sense (the earth would appear flat), but once it was known 100% that the earth is not flat at all but is spherical in shape, then anyone still believing in a flat earth would just be someone who had no education, and they would be 100% wrong in what they believed.

Because it is impossible to prove non-existence of a non thing (such as proving God doesn't exist) there is always the possibility of that existence in spite of the likelihood that all of the "facts" that people now use to prove God exists will one day be shown to be false, and since no one in human history has yet had evidence which would be accepted by all other people at that time as true, then it seems most probably that God, at least, as believers think God is, does not exist, and that all claims of its existence were fabricated by man. We do know simply from the characteristics of human memory, telling of stories, and histories of other religions, that man did create most of the 'gods' that man has worshiped throughout the existence of humans, so it would seem most likely that the existing popular religions are of a similar source.

If one is to be rational, it would seem to me that a being that created everything, would not have created what appears to be the most intelligent of the various things in what was created (I say that man appears to be the most intelligent, but that may not be true at all) to have the condition of coming into life as evil beings, and that they can only be redeemed from this condition, by having access to the teachings of Christianity, and then accepting that one has to accept that Jesus died for our horrible sins that we were born with, through no fault of our own, and if we believe he did that then those horrible sins will be forgiven, but otherwise we will suffer a far worse fate than man has ever produced to use against other men during their lifetimes. Such a being logically would have to be a monster; something from a horror movie.

RiversideRedneck

“Ditat Deus”

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#207225 Jan 24, 2014
Darwins Stepchild wrote:
Damon Linker writes an article...
http://theweek.com/article/index/254941/memo-...
in which he admonishes atheists for not taking on the strongest arguments for God.
So what is his strongest argument? That God is not the god presented in the Bible. Instead, he is a "ground of being".
What is a "ground of being" you ask? Well, I am not entirely sure. It seems to be in some way associated with a "first cause". But I think he didn't want to use that term because the first cause argument is pretty lame and has been thoroughly countered. So he sort of talks around it.
His argument seems to be that if you define God in really vague terms (kind of a really weak Deist god) then even atheists have to admit that God is possible.
To read a good counter to Linker, read Jerry Coyne's article at Why Evolution Is True.
http://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2014/...
The concept of Being appears in the present system in three places: in the doctrine of God, where God is called the being as being or the ground and the power of being; in the doctrine of man, where the distinction is carried through between man's essential and his existential being; and finally, in the doctrine of the Christ, where he is called the manifestation of the New Being, the actualization of which is the work of the divine Spirit.

-Tillich, Systematic Theology Vol. 2, p.10

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#207226 Jan 24, 2014
RiversideRedneck wrote:
<quoted text>
When you write shit like "addicts have no choice", I have to believe you don't know what you're talking about.
You're pitying them as if they were forced into drug addiction and have no way to stop.
When will you make them responsible for their actions?
Then I, along with all of modern medicine and psychiatry, don't know what we're talking about.

They don't have a meaningful choice. I've already explained to you why this is the case, and I suspect it is your theological leanings that prevent you from accepting it. Belief in complete, unfettered free will is a necessary condition of your world view.

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#207227 Jan 24, 2014
RiversideRedneck wrote:
<quoted text>
Racist?!?
The only thing that might be construed as racism, as said from Phil, is when he said that he grew up poor, white trash.
I said racially insensitive, at best. This is because he implied that black people were perfectly happy in the pre integration south based on his personal experience.

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#207228 Jan 24, 2014
RiversideRedneck wrote:
<quoted text>
My ass being firmly planted in this seat is evidence of gravity.
So no, the same argument cannot be made.
No, it's evidence of the effect of gravity. We still aren't sure the exact mechanism by which gravity works.

Since: Sep 08

La Veta, CO

#207229 Jan 24, 2014
http://www.latimes.com/science/sciencenow/la-...

I've been an advocate that there is nothing insignificant in the physical world. What was noise is starting to be used to understand bigger things.

Sedimentary soils have been known to amplify seismic waves for a long time. That loose stuff rises and falls like water. Hills can get flattened out a bit. Mud flats are the worst place to be. Cities built on old river deltas can have a rough time.

“Credulity is not a virtue”

Since: Apr 09

San Francisco

#207230 Jan 24, 2014
RiversideRedneck wrote:
<quoted text>
Morality is subjective. What is right and wrong is also subjective.
You can obey a law without knowing if it's wrong or not.
What would your motivation to obey a law be if obeying it or not are the same thing?

Since: Sep 08

La Veta, CO

#207231 Jan 24, 2014
boooots wrote:
<quoted text>
You may be making a few valid points and I am pleased that you have stated that believing means you could be wrong. It is hard to argue that. I don't believe there is a God, because so far man has never had conclusive evidence of there being one, and the things we have held to be true, which are taken from the book that fundamentalists will say is without error, because God authored or inspired it, have had some parts conclusively proved to not be true, so if the Bible being 100% is necessary for the proof of God (which I don't see it needs to be because very few Christians actually believe that anyway) then there cannot be a God. I do not have a belief in God but evidence to prove there is a God would certainly change my mind very quickly not because I was wanting to save myself from Hell, because I would not be interested in a God that had a condition of belief being that one goes to Hell for not believing, but just simply because something that has been shown to be true, I accept as being true. One of the monumental changes in human thinking occurred when man had differing opinions about the earth being flat, which to people, who had limited access to anything on the earth except within close walking distance, would seem to make sense (the earth would appear flat), but once it was known 100% that the earth is not flat at all but is spherical in shape, then anyone still believing in a flat earth would just be someone who had no education, and they would be 100% wrong in what they believed.
Because it is impossible to prove non-existence of a non thing (such as proving God doesn't exist) there is always the possibility of that existence in spite of the likelihood that all of the "facts" that people now use to prove God exists will one day be shown to be false, and since no one in human history has yet had evidence which would be accepted by all other people at that time as true, then it seems most probably that God, at least, as believers think God is, does not exist, and that all claims of its existence were fabricated by man. We do know simply from the characteristics of human memory, telling of stories, and histories of other religions, that man did create most of the 'gods' that man has worshiped throughout the existence of humans, so it would seem most likely that the existing popular religions are of a similar source.
If one is to be rational, it would seem to me that a being that created everything, would not have created what appears to be the most intelligent of the various things in what was created (I say that man appears to be the most intelligent, but that may not be true at all) to have the condition of coming into life as evil beings, and that they can only be redeemed from this condition, by having access to the teachings of Christianity, and then accepting that one has to accept that Jesus died for our horrible sins that we were born with, through no fault of our own, and if we believe he did that then those horrible sins will be forgiven, but otherwise we will suffer a far worse fate than man has ever produced to use against other men during their lifetimes. Such a being logically would have to be a monster; something from a horror movie.
Go back to sleep, booots.

You are whining. Again.

You don't make complex items in a poof.

You are unfinished product.

Bread on an assembly line ain't bread until it gets baked.

Gold has to be melted down to make a work of art.

Diamonds went through hell becoming diamonds.

Your computer went through various levels of assembly, and got baked.

Quit whining and take it like a man.

“Credulity is not a virtue”

Since: Apr 09

San Francisco

#207232 Jan 24, 2014
Dave Nelson wrote:
<quoted text>
That was kind a vague connection you make there.
You are a blind man walking a plank over a deep chasm you have no choice but to cross. You are guided by a voice telling you which and where to put your foot as you proceed. You must follow instructions to get across safely.
You think you can do it on your own and ignore the voice.
That is disobedience.
Is there any right or wrong involved other than in choice to listen on the personal level?
Adam and Eve did not know right from wrong. They were told not to eat from the tree placed right in front of them, and told if they did they would die. The snake told Eve that was a lie. Eve, having no sense of right or wrong, ate from the tree because there was no way for her discern whether to believe God or the snake, and, all things being equal, the apple looked good to her. So there was no reason to punish her. If God didn't want them to eat from the tree it could have:

Not created the tree
Not placed it in front of them
Not made Adam and Eve intentionally ignorant
Prevented the snake from talking to Eve
Been omnipresent with them, instead of ignoring them

Essentially God created two naive toddlers and placed them in a backyard next to an unfenced pool and left for the day, coming back in the evening shocked that they drowned.

Since: Sep 08

La Veta, CO

#207233 Jan 24, 2014
timn17 wrote:
<quoted text>No, it's evidence of the effect of gravity. We still aren't sure the exact mechanism by which gravity works.
Very good.

So they know something exists, just ain't sure what it is or how it works, but they put a name on it so you can refer to it easily. They know it exists.

Kind of what they do with the term God, isn't it?

“Credulity is not a virtue”

Since: Apr 09

San Francisco

#207234 Jan 24, 2014
John 20:24-29

Jesus Appears to Thomas

Now Thomas (also known as Didymus[a]), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. So the other disciples told him,“We have seen the Lord!”

But he said to them,“Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.”

A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said,“Peace be with you!” Then he said to Thomas,“Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.”

Thomas said to him,“My Lord and my God!”

Then Jesus told him,“Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

----------

In sum: the Bible says belief is superior to evidence. Or in other words, it wants people to believe that credulity is a virtue.

I wonder if Jesus would think that those who believe in Lord Krishna without proof are also blessed.

“Good day to you!”

Since: Oct 08

Earth

#207235 Jan 24, 2014
Divinity Surgeon wrote:
<quoted text>
They all think(?) Atheists are "angry", I see it as classic projection.
christians are angry because they are being exposed and confronted, all over the globe and they can't do anything other than foam at the mouth about it.
Atheists and ex cultists are worse than "demons" and witches to them, because we do not accept their illusions or behaviour anymore.
I laugh here, in my relatively stress free leisurely life in paradise but sometimes, I feel deep sorrow for all those who have no clue what true joy is or what freedom brings.
They seem to hate us for that freedom as well, so what do they do?
"Well, Atheists do bad stuffs too! Waaaah! I hate you!"
Ad absurdum.
The other poster was polite enough to let me know he posted my statement here. As to what you claim you should remember something. Religion/theism isn't developed on the back of others who believe in nothing. Atheists for the most part (not all mind you) develop their sense of non-belief on the back of those that do believe in theism. Most (not all) do it through rejection of what they were taught/indoctrinated with concerning theism. And most end up with a very nasty critical temperament they seem to not see in themselves of and for theists.
Also I know how prejudicial and bigoted theists can be. But you have also proved by one of those blanket statements how religiously prejudiced and bigoted atheists can also become. You did state to include all theists as if none of them know true joy or freedom..... "I feel deep sorrow for all those who have no clue what true joy is or what freedom brings." Very bigoted of you at the least :)

“"None shall pass"”

Since: Jul 11

There

#207236 Jan 24, 2014
RiversideRedneck wrote:
<quoted text>
Morality is subjective. What is right and wrong is also subjective.
You can obey a law without knowing if it's wrong or not.
Your morality says it is OK to beat your wife and baby.
My morality says it is wrong to beat a baby or a woman.

Since: Jan 13

Location hidden

#207237 Jan 24, 2014
BenAdam wrote:
<quoted text>You need to expand your education.

Honesty was respected long before Jesus was born. It is respected and expected in almost every culture on the planet of the last 6000 years.
Where do you get your moral standard from?

Can your worldview account for the existence of absolute morality?

You don't seem willing to share your own worldview however?

Since: Jan 13

Location hidden

#207238 Jan 24, 2014
River Tam wrote:
<quoted text>Sorry, but lying isn't a Christian moral standard. Lying was frowned upon before Christians came about. Look what happened to that Jesus dude for lying about being the messiah.
So where did the absolute moral absolute that lying is wrong come from?

As a Christian I can account for it, but where do you get it from if not Christianity?

“Credulity is not a virtue”

Since: Apr 09

San Francisco

#207239 Jan 24, 2014
RiversideRedneck wrote:
<quoted text>
The concept of Being appears in the present system in three places: in the doctrine of God, where God is called the being as being or the ground and the power of being; in the doctrine of man, where the distinction is carried through between man's essential and his existential being; and finally, in the doctrine of the Christ, where he is called the manifestation of the New Being, the actualization of which is the work of the divine Spirit.
-Tillich, Systematic Theology Vol. 2, p.10
Sounds like presuppositional apologetics: "let's just assume that the Abrahamic God exists and work from there". The fun thing about that is that it opens the door to every other deity which has been claimed to exist too. There isn't any way to rationalize the existence of Yahweh without likewise allowing every other god too.

Since: Jan 13

Location hidden

#207240 Jan 24, 2014
Darwins Stepchild wrote:
<quoted text>No, it doesn't. They didn't know about good and evil, meaning they knew nothing about morals. Without such knowledge, it could not have been a moral choice.

You need to think these things through.
Knowing evil meant knowing the consequence of evil experientialy.

They did not have that knowledge before, but they understood the concept of wrong which is clear in eves discussion with satan.

Your argument seeks to make Eve the unwitting victim and God the cruel overlord, but that is something you bring to the text and read into it.

Since: Jan 13

Location hidden

#207241 Jan 24, 2014
Darwins Stepchild wrote:
<quoted text>What contradiction? Please explain.
See last post.

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