Atheism requires as much faith as religion?

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Atheism requires as much faith as religion? bearvspuma : The only problem with this rationalization is that ita s assuming all athiests are so because theya re intelligent in the ways of science and reasoning and all people that believe in a form of god are unintelligent.
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Bongo

Patchogue, NY

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#203135
Jan 15, 2014
 

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HipGnosis wrote:
<quoted text>Just for shins and griggles, I'm going to propose that unfettered free-market capitalism is responsible for far more of the decline you've cited.
Capitalism has no inherent humanity - it is an economic system that rewards "Immoral" behavior while penalizing "moral" behavior.
"It has always seemed strange to me... the things we admire in men, kindness and generosity, openness, honesty, understanding and feeling, are the concomitants of failure in our system. And those traits we detest, sharpness, greed, acquisitiveness, meanness, egotism and self-interest, are the traits of success. And while men admire the quality of the first they love the produce of the second."
John Steinbeck
I'm not saying that there's a better system. Capitalism has all the >potential< to increase shared prosperity, and showed signs of doing so for about 30 years in the last century. But we couldn't let that go on forever - shareholders wouldn't stand for it. Thus, in the same timeframe you cited, we've seen the middle class erode, opportunity fly away, and cynical acquisitiveness replace traditional "Christian values". It's been so successful that today if the Pope cites values taken straight from Jesus, he is denounced on certain mass media outlets as a "commie". American Christians by and large have bought into the health and wealth doctrine promulgated by mega-churches. Some have become amazingly dismissive of Jesus' own words and example.
The Christian church has not only failed in it's leadership role, it has allowed it's very soul to be subverted to an economic system that has no inherent humanity.
Interesting pontificating there hipnotorized

“Michin yeoja”

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#203136
Jan 15, 2014
 

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RiversideRedneck wrote:
RiversideRedneck wrote:
A primary purpose of public education is to shape good citizens, yes?
<quoted text>
Right.... Then what's the purpose of a home economics class, a basketball team or a choir??
You and I see public schooling quite differently.
Economics, home or otherwise, is valuable to students. Basketball teams and choirs are after school activities.

Since: Jul 12

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#203137
Jan 15, 2014
 

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It aint necessarily so wrote:
<quoted text>
Why doesn't prayer work if delivered at the dinner table instead? The fact is that school prayer serves no other function apart from giving the church access to the minds of children from homes that don't lead them in prayer.
<quoted text>
How do you figure that a daily prayer teaches respect for authority? It teaches a god belief, which has little to do with respecting authority.
How many of you believers dropped out of school too soon? My parents wanted me to go to college, and I respected their authority,as did many of the other unbelievers posting here. That's the kind of education my atheist parents respected, not religious indoctrination. Did your parents want the same for you? Did you respect those wishes? Did your religious upbringing teach you to listen to your parents and reinforce their values, or did you rebel and drop out anyway?
How many theists on this thread have been in trouble with the law? You are one of three that I know of. I was not raised with religion. How many of those of us here raised without religion have had the same problem respecting authority?
One huge difference between the two camps here is our reliance on evidence like the above to come to conclusions about how things really are, and faith based thinkers, who simply assume things like those that you repeat here that are contradicted by the evidence. What hope is there to ever do better with faith determining your beliefs?
Many questions..... I'll answer in order.

Prayer does work at the dinner table. Why are all your examples of home prayer surrounded by food?

Prayer teaches respect for authority because you're respecting an authority by praying to Him, by thanking Him and by asking Him for forgiveness.

I don't know, how many?

Both my parents and my dad's dad went to college, they wanted the same for me.

No, I couldn't afford to respect their wishes of going to college.

I never went to college, I couldn't have dropped out.

I don't know how many.

I don't know how many.

You're "evidence" is inconclusive. By your own words, "You are one of three that I know of", you've determined that faith is worthless because three religious people on Topix have been in trouble with the law.

Amazing.

Since: Jul 12

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#203138
Jan 15, 2014
 

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It aint necessarily so wrote:
If you count that a loss, whose fault was it - secularists and the schools, or your parents?
All three.
Bongo

Patchogue, NY

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#203139
Jan 15, 2014
 
River Tam wrote:
<quoted text>
You need a second opinion.
Thanks, man

“The future begins”

Since: Jul 07

every moment

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#203140
Jan 15, 2014
 
Buck Crick wrote:
<quoted text>
He didn't say they were stupid. He said they distorted facts and assembled unsupported assertions.
You know,...like you just did.
Yet he did not offer one specific rebuttal. Not one. This equates to, "Huh Uh! You're stupid!"

Just like the responses I've received in every dialogue I've had since I arrived here.

Since: Jul 12

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#203141
Jan 15, 2014
 

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It aint necessarily so wrote:
<quoted text>
Because I can't find a designer. nor a definite need for one.
Plus, those that claim otherwise have been wrong innumerable times. Science keeps showing us how the universe works without a god. It used to be believed that the planets were gods, or were moved by angels, and that thunder, auroras and earthquakes were the manifestations of unseen gods warring or expressing anger.
Abiogenesis and cosmogenesis - the origins of the first cell and of the singularity - are the last frontiers. There is no reason to expect that a god came along, created a singularity, waited for it to expand for about ten billion years, and then returned to put a cell in it to evolve. Nobody except faith based thinkers expect that to be the case, and we know why they think that.
Genius. Pure genius.

Please tell me how science keeps showing us how the universe works without a god.

I gotta hear this one.

And why so you believe abiogenesis to be true when there's no evidence for it?

Why don't you use the same evidence-based criteria for God as you do abiogenesis?

Since: Jul 12

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#203142
Jan 15, 2014
 

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ChristineM wrote:
<quoted text>
Ahh so you at last admit that the babble is mythological
Thank you for you candour
Sorry? Does me stating that I was “describing two murders as described in the babble mean that I believe Adam and Eve?”
Where did you buy your logic? Because you certainly have not developed it in the normal way. Do you have a ‘trade descriptions act in the US’? If I were you I’d take it back and demand a refund.
I admit that genetic Adam and genetic Eve existed,(much to bucks consternation), they lived several thousand years apart so if the babble were to be believed one of them was in to necrophilia in a serious way
No.

You think the Bible is myth.

You also think the (mythical) Bible holds the record of the first human murder.

You make no sense at all.

“I started out with nothing”

Since: Nov 10

and still got most of it left

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#203143
Jan 15, 2014
 
Buck Crick wrote:
<quoted text>
Chrissy, you have lost every single exchange with me, not just lost, but been decimated, by a factual and logical reply.
I have handled you with kid gloves. I have fun ridiculing some of your statements, but even that is more kind than telling you what your ramblings really are.
You are not up to confronting me intellectually. That's saying the least of it. You are, in my assessment, suffering a psychological disorder. I will not try to diagnose you on specifics, but you need to see a doctor and be treated for it.
If you are seeing a psychiatrist presently, you need to bring up to him or her your behavior on this forum.
Don’t lie, it ruins your credibility and you don’t get extra god points for it

Since: May 10

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#203144
Jan 15, 2014
 

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ChristineM wrote:
<quoted text>
So you are still denying that you linked to a youtube video and claimed it as proof of gods existence?
Your Hitler rant was some time after and you never refuted my statement on Hitler, What you did was make BS and irrelevant comments and decided that you were the one who would adjudicate over a persons religious standing.
There was nothing in the Nuremberg trials to label his religion. However there was much about his treatment of those he believed killed his saviour.
He was anti Jewish, that did not make him non christian as is serially documented.
Government legal tribunals do not issue labels for people to wear, Chrissy.

I doubt they even had those label-maker machines back in 1945.

But here's what they do, in fact, do. They collect evidence, using investigators, witnesses, and so forth. And they enter it into evidence. It is as sworn testimony, and subject to the rules of perjury.

What the huge accumulation of evidence on the subject of Hitler and religion yielded was that he hated Christianity as he did Judaism, viewed Christianity is completely incompatible with Nazism, and planned to eradicate it from Germany. Also, he had taken steps to begin that eradication.

Your insistence that such actions still allow a person to be considered, under anyone's standards, a Christian, is insane. Further, you are implying that Christianity could somehow be the impulse for his actions. That is also insane.

I will not address your stupid assertions on this subject again.

Since: Jul 12

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#203145
Jan 15, 2014
 

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Catcher1 wrote:
<quoted text>
Brown, looks just like unpainted wood and matches the beams of my craftsman house.
You owe IANS some responses.
Think first.
Brown? Trex doesn't make a "brown".

Is it Accents? Transcends? Did your professional artist deck builder use hidden fasteners? What type of screws did he use?

Since: Sep 08

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#203146
Jan 15, 2014
 
River Tam wrote:
<quoted text>
You need a second opinion.
No, little one, I don't need a second opinion. I have plenty more than that. What I need is some young pussy to distract me from all of this intellectualating I am forced to do.

Is there a sacrificial virgin in the house?

:-)

I need a haircut, too.

Ugh. 22 mile trip to get a damned haircut.

Since: May 10

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#203147
Jan 15, 2014
 

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ChristineM wrote:
<quoted text>
It is estimated that around 800 million people been killed in religious wars involving christianity
It is estimated that 80 million people have been killed by atheist leaders
Look at the figures 800 million compared to 80 million.
Atheism is not a philosophy, people do not kill in the name of atheism. For the most part those deaths were the result of nationalistic belief. However feel free to blame the non-belief in you god if it makes you sleep better.
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Have_atheists_kille...
http://atheism.about.com/od/atheismmyths/p/At...
http://grisham.newsvine.com/_news/2011/08/30/...
http://articles.exchristian.net/2002/10/how-m...
Buck you have no idea what you are talking about and have once again lost the thread. Perhaps you were hit around the head too often as a child with a heavy babble, I really don’t know or care why you are so blindly stupid as you are but hey ho…
May I suggest you have a rest for a few weeks with a good medication regime and plenty of alcohol to wash the pills down then come back and try again
Chrissy, 800 million?

Do you realize that would have required the Christian religion to kill, on average, 400,000 people per year, every year, since the birth of Christ?

Get help.

Since: Jul 12

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#203148
Jan 15, 2014
 

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HipGnosis wrote:
<quoted text>Just for shins and griggles, I'm going to propose that unfettered free-market capitalism is responsible for far more of the decline you've cited.
Capitalism has no inherent humanity - it is an economic system that rewards "Immoral" behavior while penalizing "moral" behavior.
"It has always seemed strange to me... the things we admire in men, kindness and generosity, openness, honesty, understanding and feeling, are the concomitants of failure in our system. And those traits we detest, sharpness, greed, acquisitiveness, meanness, egotism and self-interest, are the traits of success. And while men admire the quality of the first they love the produce of the second."
John Steinbeck
I'm not saying that there's a better system. Capitalism has all the >potential< to increase shared prosperity, and showed signs of doing so for about 30 years in the last century. But we couldn't let that go on forever - shareholders wouldn't stand for it. Thus, in the same timeframe you cited, we've seen the middle class erode, opportunity fly away, and cynical acquisitiveness replace traditional "Christian values". It's been so successful that today if the Pope cites values taken straight from Jesus, he is denounced on certain mass media outlets as a "commie". American Christians by and large have bought into the health and wealth doctrine promulgated by mega-churches. Some have become amazingly dismissive of Jesus' own words and example.
The Christian church has not only failed in it's leadership role, it has allowed it's very soul to be subverted to an economic system that has no inherent humanity.
Like I said, we are all part of the problem.

You've pointed out several more downturns of American society that began with the efforts of secular humanism and culminated to the crappy society we have today.

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#203149
Jan 15, 2014
 

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HipGnosis wrote:
<quoted text>Your premise is rife with falsehoods.
Mandated school prayer has NEVER in the history of the nation been universal. Mandated devotionals were common in some Southern and Eastern states, nearly non-existent in the Midwest and West.
Challenges to an official mandated prayer go back to the 19th century. The Ohio SC held in 1870 that schools could not hold mandatory prayer. Roman Catholics filed suit in the mid-18th century to prohibit a mandated Protestant prayer.
Voluntary prayer and religious groups are not only NOT prohibited, their rights are and have been been protected by....who? You'll never guess. The dreaded ACLU. I can spam the page with the filings. In the few anecdotal instances you may cite, the determination is whether the prayer is coercive in nature. For example, why should a Jew have to sit through a Christian prayer at a graduation ceremony? Why should a Protestant have to sit through a Catholic prayer? Why should an atheist have to sit through any of them? That is coercive in nature and an imposition of one religion on all present.
One of the primary reasons that public religious observance have gotten a bad name is precisely because of the resort to outright falsehoods such as those you keep repeating ad nauseum.
Again, we find you to be part of the very problem you moan about.
Voluntary, non-sectarian prayer was ruled unconstitutional by the U.S. Supreme Court.

I showed you the ruling. They did not declare it unconstitutional for coercion. They banned it because it violated the "Wall of Separation" by its presence.

Since: Jul 12

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#203150
Jan 15, 2014
 

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New Age Spiritual Leader wrote:
Since you believe in Satan how is that if not in a physical form?
I don't believe in Satan, I believe he exists.

Satan doesn't need a physical form for that to happen.
Do you [Self] use your brain to do this? Or is it just something that others told you to "believe in"?
I use my left toe for it.

Duh.
What does this "Satan" look like?
I have no idea.

The Bible describes him as elegant and arrogant in his beauty and deceitfulness. He was God's most powerful angel and that got to his head.
Does "he" even have a physical appearance, or is just an invisible wind that exists in your mind?


Satan can take a physical form of his choice, like he did as the Serpent in Genesis. He's a fallen angel and has the same ability that the angels have.

But Satan in a physical form is the least of your worries.

"For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places."
Lots of questions that seem to be not answered with your belief?
Because you don't know the answer doesn't mean they are unanswered.
Or is it that you just have "faith" that a belief exists within you?
No. You're ignorant of the subject, obviously.
Really?
Amen.

Since: Jul 12

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#203151
Jan 15, 2014
 

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New Age Spiritual Leader wrote:
No RR - I'm not reaching, just stating the obvious.
You fail to look at all the possibilities which include specifics. Thus, you then conclude that your way is accurate and others are not.
Again, you fail at understanding that this is not always the case.
You just did that yourself, when you again incorrectly asserted that I believe in Satan.

"Since you believe in Satan how is that if not in a physical form?"

Look to self....

Since: Jul 12

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#203152
Jan 15, 2014
 

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HipGnosis wrote:
<quoted text>Your premise is rife with falsehoods.
Mandated school prayer has NEVER in the history of the nation been universal. Mandated devotionals were common in some Southern and Eastern states, nearly non-existent in the Midwest and West.
Challenges to an official mandated prayer go back to the 19th century. The Ohio SC held in 1870 that schools could not hold mandatory prayer. Roman Catholics filed suit in the mid-18th century to prohibit a mandated Protestant prayer.
Voluntary prayer and religious groups are not only NOT prohibited, their rights are and have been been protected by....who? You'll never guess. The dreaded ACLU. I can spam the page with the filings. In the few anecdotal instances you may cite, the determination is whether the prayer is coercive in nature. For example, why should a Jew have to sit through a Christian prayer at a graduation ceremony? Why should a Protestant have to sit through a Catholic prayer? Why should an atheist have to sit through any of them? That is coercive in nature and an imposition of one religion on all present.
One of the primary reasons that public religious observance have gotten a bad name is precisely because of the resort to outright falsehoods such as those you keep repeating ad nauseum.
Again, we find you to be part of the very problem you moan about.
Why should I have to sit through a graduation ceremony without a prayer being said?

"That's not fair!"

Since: May 10

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#203153
Jan 15, 2014
 
ChristineM wrote:
<quoted text>
Ahh right so it does not matter how thinks happened just so long as you can continue to believe in Jew magic
Jew magic?

I see. You hate Jews, too.

Wait a minute. Are you the idiot who went on a retarded splunge about circumcision being child abuse?

Your "Jew" talk makes sense now.

Since: May 10

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#203154
Jan 15, 2014
 
HipGnosis wrote:
<quoted text>Just for shins and griggles, I'm going to propose that unfettered free-market capitalism is responsible for far more of the decline you've cited.
Capitalism has no inherent humanity - it is an economic system that rewards "Immoral" behavior while penalizing "moral" behavior.
"It has always seemed strange to me... the things we admire in men, kindness and generosity, openness, honesty, understanding and feeling, are the concomitants of failure in our system. And those traits we detest, sharpness, greed, acquisitiveness, meanness, egotism and self-interest, are the traits of success. And while men admire the quality of the first they love the produce of the second."
John Steinbeck
I'm not saying that there's a better system. Capitalism has all the >potential< to increase shared prosperity, and showed signs of doing so for about 30 years in the last century. But we couldn't let that go on forever - shareholders wouldn't stand for it. Thus, in the same timeframe you cited, we've seen the middle class erode, opportunity fly away, and cynical acquisitiveness replace traditional "Christian values". It's been so successful that today if the Pope cites values taken straight from Jesus, he is denounced on certain mass media outlets as a "commie". American Christians by and large have bought into the health and wealth doctrine promulgated by mega-churches. Some have become amazingly dismissive of Jesus' own words and example.
The Christian church has not only failed in it's leadership role, it has allowed it's very soul to be subverted to an economic system that has no inherent humanity.
Total bull shit.

Capitalism has created more humanitarian aid, more charity, and lifted more people out of poverty than any other system in history, and more than any religion, including the Pope's religion.

The giving of wealth the Pope likes is possible because of capitalism.

And no, the Pope's comments did not come from Jesus. Unless Karl Marx is Jesus.

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