Atheism requires as much faith as rel...

Atheism requires as much faith as religion?

There are 258512 comments on the Webbunny tumblelog story from Jul 18, 2009, titled Atheism requires as much faith as religion?. In it, Webbunny tumblelog reports that:

Atheism requires as much faith as religion? bearvspuma : The only problem with this rationalization is that ita s assuming all athiests are so because theya re intelligent in the ways of science and reasoning and all people that believe in a form of god are unintelligent.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at Webbunny tumblelog.

Jim

London, UK

#196090 Dec 26, 2013
RiversideRedneck wrote:
<quoted text>
See? More of your double standard.
You openly say that the people that support Bush, Robertson, et al are doing it in the name of Christianity.
But you refuse to admit the supporters of Stalin, Guevara, et al aren't doing it in the name of atheism.
No, no, no. They're doing in it the name of politics, you say.
Atheists find themselves spelling out to religionists time and time again:

"We don't believe you. This does not give you the right to lie about atheism. Go back to your churches and leave atheists in peach."

Since: Sep 08

La Junta, CO

#196091 Dec 26, 2013
RiversideRedneck wrote:
<quoted text>
Atheism isn't a disbelief in religion.
Atheism is a belief that no deities exist.
Or a supernatural.

It is a belief that the here and now material world they exist in is all there can possibly be. With a fervent passion.

Most of these Topix atheists are the result of political persuasion harnessing the power of disenchantment. It is politics based, not intellectually based. They are just reacting to a fear of theocracies induced into them.

Hence the display of emotion and not real intellect by them on these forums. Jingoism and demonizing is their thing. It is all they know.

RiversideRedneck

“Ditat Deus”

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#196092 Dec 26, 2013
It aint necessarily so wrote:
<quoted text>
Only in the same sense that left-handedness, having an IQ over 160, and having type AB blood are abnormal.
Rational ethicists reject religious dogma. We aren't affected by what Christians think their god says.
Less than 10% of the world population are left handed.

That is abnormal.

Abnormal doesn't mean bad.

RiversideRedneck

“Ditat Deus”

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#196093 Dec 26, 2013
Bob of Quantum-Faith wrote:
Stuff
It aint necessarily so wrote:
Good post, Bob.
What you describe is very similar to a controlled clinical trial to determine if a potential therapeutic intervention such as a surgery, a dietary recommendation, a set of exercises, or a medication has an effect, and if so, what effect and to what degree.
You divide a population into two cohorts of people that are otherwise roughly the same in terms of the distribution of ages, gender, and any other relevant variables, administer the intervention to one group but not the other, and measure outcomes.
In this case, you have a nation of Americans with the Christian ethical program being administered to some but not others, and a variety of demographic studies showing the differences between those calling themselves Christians and those raised in alternative traditions, followed by determining the differences in murder and violent crime rates, prison sentences, divorce rates, etc,.between the two..
At http://www.scribd.com/doc/37725046/Zuckerman-... , one can read Atheism, Secularity, and Well-Being: How the Findings of Social Science Counter Negative Stereotypes and Assumptions by Phil Zuckerman Ph.. This is a meta-study that summarizes the findings of a few dozen constitutent studies, and categorizes them under the headings Criminality and Moral Conduct, Life Satisfaction and Psychological Well-Being, Family and Children, Sex and Sexuality. What it shows is that the Christian system produces poorer outcomes than the alternative, which in America, is predominantly the values and methods of secular humanism.
Here is an excerpt of one such summary, and citations of the original work that supports it:
"If religion, prayer, or God-belief hindered criminal behavior, and secularity or atheism fostered lawlessness, we would expect to find the most religious nations having the lowest murder rates and the least religious nations having the highest. But we find just the opposite. Murder rates are actually lower in more secular nations and higher in more religious nations where belief in God is deep and widespread (Jensen 2006; Paul 2005; Fajnzylber et al. 2002; Fox and Levin 2000).":
Here's a similar paper published Evolutionary Psychology called "The Chronic Dependence of Popular Religiosity upon Dysfunctional Psychosociological Conditions" by Gregory Paul
http://www.epjournal.net/wp-content/uploads/E... as well as a discussion of the topic of determining these statistic also by Paul at http://www.gspaulscienceofreligion.com/
I think the data scientifically confirms that humanists offer a superior product, and where the Christian and humanist values overlap, our method of teaching seems to be superior as well. For example, humanists embody the Golden Rule and the maxim to love one another much better than the Christian population, as the recent conversation in this thread about the treatment of gays by the believers and unbelievers offering opinions confirms. The unbelievers base their opinions on compassion - a sense of fairness - whereas the Christians tend to repeat their church's divisive and demeaning homophobic doctrine as if that trumped compassion.
Did you just....?
It aint necessarily so wrote:
Good post, Bob.
Ya, you did.

O_o

Buck Crick

Since: May 10

Location hidden

#196094 Dec 26, 2013
It aint necessarily so wrote:
<quoted text>

Do you know of any analogous examples of Stalin persecuting Jews, Muslims Hindus or Buddhists for not being atheist?
And once again, I don't see an argument against atheism or for Christianity or any other religion here.
Yes. Stalin persecuted muslims quite ferociously. You can look it up.

I have made no argument on this subject for religion.

What I have done is prove atheism to be, historically, a motivating force for mass murder.

Each can make of that what he wants, but those who defend atheism blindly have been made fools of on this thread in the past couple of days.

The hard-core dissenters clutch to the life preservers still. They are common idiots like Gym, BenAdam, HipGnosis, and Loose Fur.

RiversideRedneck

“Ditat Deus”

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#196095 Dec 26, 2013
LuciFerr wrote:
Belligerent Civilization World War II (1939–1945) 55,000,000–72,000,000 War, Democide Christian, Buddhist
People’s Republic of China (1949-1975)
44,500,000-77,000,000 Democide Antitheist
Three Kingdoms Wars (220-280)
40,000,000 War Sinic
Soviet Reign (1923-1954)
38,000,000-55,000,000 Democide Antitheist
An Shi Rebellion (755-763)
36,000,000 Civil War Buddhist
Mongol Conquests (from 1207)
30,000,000–50,000,000 War Primal-Indigenous
Manchu conquest of Ming China (1616–1662)
25,000,000 War Sinic
Tai Ping Rebellion (China, 1851–1864)
20,000,000-50,000,000 Civil War Sinic, Christian
World War I (1914–1918)
15,000,000–66,000,000 War Christian
Second Sino-Japanese War (1931–1945)
15,000,000-22,000,00 War Buddhist
Nationalist China (1928-49)
10,075,000 Civil War Sinic
Conquests of Timur the Lame (1360-1405)
7,000,000-20,000,000 War Islamic
Belligerent Civilization Russian Civil War (1917–1922)
5,000,000–9,000,000 Civil War Christian, Antitheist
Conquests of Menelik II Ethiopia (1882- 1898)
5,000,000 War Christian
Congo Free State colonial war (1885-1908)
4,500,000-12,000,000 War Christian
Dungan Revolt (1862-1877)
4,000,000 Civil War Sinic
Second Congo War (1998–2007)
3,800,000-5,400,000 War Christian
Napoleonic Wars (1804–1815)
3,500,000–6,000,000 War Christian
China Mao Soviets (1923-1949)
3,500,000 Democide Antitheist
Thirty Years’ War (1618–1648)
3,000,000–8,000,000 War Christian
Yellow Turban Rebellion (China, 184–205)
3,000,000–7,000,000 Civil War Sinic
Korean War (1950–1953)
2,500,000–5,040,000 War Christian, Antitheist
Transatlantic Slave Trade (17th to 19th centuries)
2,400,000-4,300,000 Structural Violence Christian
(I'll go into detail on this one later:)
Vietnam War (1945–1975)
2,300,000–5,100,000 War Christian, Antitheist
French Wars of Religion (1562–1598)
2,000,000–4,000,000 Civil War Christian
Mahmud of Ghazni‘s invasions, India (1000-1027)
2,000,000 War Islamic
Belligerent Civilization Post-War Expulsion of Germans (1945-47)
2,100,000-3,000,000 Democide Christian
Young Turk Atrocities (1909-18)
1,800,000-2,000,000 Democide Islamic
Cambodia, Khmer Rouge (1975-79)
1,700,000-2,035,000 Democide Antitheist
North Korea (1948-1987)
1,500,000-1,600,000 Democide Antitheist
Afghan Civil War (1979-ongoing)
1,500,000–2,000,000 Civil War Islamic
Arab Slave Trade (7th to 19th centuries)
1,400,000-2,000,000 Structural Violence Islamic
Chinese Civil War (1928–1949)
1,300,000–6,200,000 Civil War Sinic
Mexican Revolution (1910–1920)
1,000,000–2,000,000 Civil War Christian
Shaka‘s conquests (1816-1828)
1,000,000-2,000,000 Civil War Primal-Indigenous
Soviet Afghan intervention (1979–1989)
1,000,000–1,500,000 War Antitheist
Nigerian Civil War (1967–1970)
1,000,000-1,200,000 Civil War Islamic, Christian
Iran-Iraq War (1980–1988)
1,000,000 War Islamic
Japanese invasions of Korea (1592-1598)
1,000,000 War Buddhist
Second Sudanese Civil War (1983–2005)
1,000,000 Civil War Islamic,
Christian Crusades (1095-1272)
1,000,000 War Christian Aztec Atrocities 1,000,000+
Structural Violence Primal-Indigenous Panthay Rebellion (1856-1873) 1,000,000 Civil War Sinic
****
http://www.google.com.au/url...
Sorry for the long link, needs to be downloaded but it is worth the effort.
****
Death count on wars listed here, so far;
Anti Theists - 140, 635,000
Religion - Infinity - Nah, kidding but really, c'mon!- 429,875,000
christianity's death toll is - 259,040,000 so far, more than half of religions combined and twice as much as antitheism.
I haven't even posted all the wars yet, nor have I yet counted the extermination of the American Indians.
You're counting WWII deaths as religion based deaths?!?!?

Dude....

Buck Crick

Since: May 10

Location hidden

#196096 Dec 26, 2013
Dave Nelson wrote:
<quoted text>
Or a supernatural.
It is a belief that the here and now material world they exist in is all there can possibly be. With a fervent passion.
Most of these Topix atheists are the result of political persuasion harnessing the power of disenchantment. It is politics based, not intellectually based. They are just reacting to a fear of theocracies induced into them.
Hence the display of emotion and not real intellect by them on these forums. Jingoism and demonizing is their thing. It is all they know.
Agreed.

RiversideRedneck

“Ditat Deus”

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#196097 Dec 26, 2013
scaritual wrote:
<quoted text>
Yeah, Hitler was just a different kind of theist that felt his deity concept was better and, "more real", than the other deity concepts. Classic theist mindset.
And somehow, he got an entire nation almost literally(94%+), comprised of Christian theists, to assist him or sit by and do nothing to stop him.
They couldn't stop him.

The American Christians could.

And did.

RiversideRedneck

“Ditat Deus”

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#196098 Dec 26, 2013
scaritual wrote:
<quoted text>
No, there isn't a reason to ask the question, unless you believe there is a deity or are deities, and even then, it's a purely personal belief, with no unbiased evidences that stand by themselves, convincing to any person who observes whatever evidence it may be that is deemed as proof by the deity believer.
Deity claims by theists are the in the same category as the child that say they have an imaginary friend.
And the deity claims of the atheist?
LCNlin

United States

#196099 Dec 26, 2013
RiversideRedneck wrote:
<quoted text>
They couldn't stop him.
The American Christians could.
And did.
Also Canadian, Polish and British Christians and Jews stopped Hitler 1939 to 1945.
Remember their sacrifices always
Peace

Buck Crick

Since: May 10

Location hidden

#196100 Dec 26, 2013
Jim wrote:
Atheism is a religion like transparent is a colour
You're on the wrong page of the handbook, Gym.

Makes you sound even dumber than usual.

You should be on the chapter titled "How to Dilute the Meaning of Atheism".

I think it's chapter 3. Right after leprechaun analogies.

RiversideRedneck

“Ditat Deus”

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#196101 Dec 26, 2013
Jim wrote:
Hitler was vegetarian. does that mean that he killed for vegetarianism?
You kinda have to kill the plant you're gonna eat....

“H-o-o-o-o-o-o-ld on thar!”

Since: Sep 08

The Borderland of Sol

#196102 Dec 26, 2013
RiversideRedneck wrote:
<quoted text>
Atheism isn't a disbelief in religion.
Atheism is a belief that no deities exist.
If you say so.

That's an article of faith with you, isn't it?

*helpless laughter*

RiversideRedneck

“Ditat Deus”

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#196103 Dec 26, 2013
Jim wrote:
<quoted text>
Atheism is a simple disbelief in religion and religious liars. Lying about atheism because we don't believe you is just low.
Atheism has nothing to do with religions.

It's a belief that deities don't exist.

Buck Crick

Since: May 10

Location hidden

#196104 Dec 26, 2013
LuciFerr wrote:
Belligerent Civilization World War II (1939–1945) 55,000,000–72,000,000 War, Democide Christian, Buddhist
People’s Republic of China (1949-1975)
44,500,000-77,000,000 Democide Antitheist
Three Kingdoms Wars (220-280)
40,000,000 War Sinic
Soviet Reign (1923-1954)
38,000,000-55,000,000 Democide Antitheist
An Shi Rebellion (755-763)
36,000,000 Civil War Buddhist
Mongol Conquests (from 1207)
30,000,000–50,000,000 War Primal-Indigenous
Manchu conquest of Ming China (1616–1662)
25,000,000 War Sinic
Tai Ping Rebellion (China, 1851–1864)
20,000,000-50,000,000 Civil War Sinic, Christian
World War I (1914–1918)
15,000,000–66,000,000 War Christian
Second Sino-Japanese War (1931–1945)
15,000,000-22,000,00 War Buddhist
Nationalist China (1928-49)
10,075,000 Civil War Sinic
Conquests of Timur the Lame (1360-1405)
7,000,000-20,000,000 War Islamic
Belligerent Civilization Russian Civil War (1917–1922)
5,000,000–9,000,000 Civil War Christian, Antitheist
Conquests of Menelik II Ethiopia (1882- 1898)
5,000,000 War Christian
Congo Free State colonial war (1885-1908)
4,500,000-12,000,000 War Christian
Dungan Revolt (1862-1877)
4,000,000 Civil War Sinic
Second Congo War (1998–2007)
3,800,000-5,400,000 War Christian
Napoleonic Wars (1804–1815)
3,500,000–6,000,000 War Christian
China Mao Soviets (1923-1949)
3,500,000 Democide Antitheist
Thirty Years’ War (1618–1648)
3,000,000–8,000,000 War Christian
Yellow Turban Rebellion (China, 184–205)
3,000,000–7,000,000 Civil War Sinic
Korean War (1950–1953)
2,500,000–5,040,000 War Christian, Antitheist
Transatlantic Slave Trade (17th to 19th centuries)
2,400,000-4,300,000 Structural Violence Christian
(I'll go into detail on this one later:)
Vietnam War (1945–1975)
2,300,000–5,100,000 War Christian, Antitheist
French Wars of Religion (1562–1598)
2,000,000–4,000,000 Civil War Christian
Mahmud of Ghazni‘s invasions, India (1000-1027)
2,000,000 War Islamic
Belligerent Civilization Post-War Expulsion of Germans (1945-47)
2,100,000-3,000,000 Democide Christian
Young Turk Atrocities (1909-18)
1,800,000-2,000,000 Democide Islamic
Cambodia, Khmer Rouge (1975-79)
1,700,000-2,035,000 Democide Antitheist
North Korea (1948-1987)
1,500,000-1,600,000 Democide Antitheist
Afghan Civil War (1979-ongoing)
1,500,000–2,000,000 Civil War Islamic
Arab Slave Trade (7th to 19th centuries)
1,400,000-2,000,000 Structural Violence Islamic
Chinese Civil War (1928–1949)
1,300,000–6,200,000 Civil War Sinic
Mexican Revolution (1910–1920)
1,000,000–2,000,000 Civil War Christian
Shaka‘s conquests (1816-1828)
1,000,000-2,000,000 Civil War Primal-Indigenous
Soviet Afghan intervention (1979–1989)
1,000,000–1,500,000 War Antitheist
Nigerian Civil War (1967–1970)
1,000,000-1,200,000 Civil War Islamic, Christian
Iran-Iraq War (1980–1988)
1,000,000 War Islamic
Japanese invasions of Korea (1592-1598)
1,000,000 War Buddhist
Second Sudanese Civil War (1983–2005)
1,000,000 Civil War Islamic,
Christian Crusades (1095-1272)
1,000,000 War Christian Aztec Atrocities 1,000,000+
Structural Violence Primal-Indigenous Panthay Rebellion (1856-1873) 1,000,000 Civil War Sinic
****
http://www.google.com.au/url ...
Sorry for the long link, needs to be downloaded but it is worth the effort.
****
Death count on wars listed here, so far;
Anti Theists - 140, 635,000
Religion - Infinity - Nah, kidding but really, c'mon!- 429,875,000
christianity's death toll is - 259,040,000 so far, more than half of religions combined and twice as much as antitheism.
I haven't even posted all the wars yet, nor have I yet counted the extermination of the American Indians.
__________

You could have saved space and just said:

"All deaths in history are due to religion".

You have no idea how stupid posting this make you, do you?

“Life may be sweeter for this”

Since: Nov 08

Fennario

#196105 Dec 26, 2013
Buck Crick wrote:
The only equivalent prevarication I am aware of is the attempt of Darwinists to exempt Darwinism from Hitler's holocaust.
What does "Darwinism" have to do with Hitler? Are you confusing so called so-called Darwinism with the theory of biological evolution?

These arguments of yours, Buck, only show me a hatred for atheism and the theory of evolution. They are not valid criticisms of either the rejection of god claims or of evolutionary theory.

Or maybe that is not your point. What is your larger point with these arguments - that we should reject secular humanism and evolution, or that we should embrace religion, or thank it for something?

Even if I were to concede every claim you've made, what would you have me or anybody else do differently because of that?

My position is that the theory of evolution is superior to biblical creationism as an explanation for how life on the planet came to be the way that we find it, and that secular humanism provides a superior philosophical basis for individual and societal growth than Christianity. Do you disagree with either of those, and if so, do Stalin and/or Hitler have anything to do with your reason?

Buck Crick

Since: May 10

Location hidden

#196106 Dec 26, 2013
macumazahn wrote:
<quoted text>If you say so.
That's an article of faith with you, isn't it?
*helpless laughter*
No, it's the definition of the term "atheism".

Words have meanings.

It's a long-running trend. Thought you heard.

“The future begins”

Since: Jul 07

every moment

#196107 Dec 26, 2013
Buck Crick wrote:
HipGnosis wrote:
Stalin et al were atheist - no doubt about it. But for atheism to have been his singular aim, those persecuted would have been offered a chance to recant, and live. Were they? The record doesn't reflect that. They were persecuted for ideological reasons, not religious. This demonstrates that it wasn't simply atheism he was after, but a totalitarian regime with the people beholden to none but the state. Conversely, in the various Christian persecutions, were the heathen offered the chance to recant, and live? Yes. Nothing more clearly demonstrates the difference between the two historical atrocities.
IANS wrote: Good argument.
__________
"Early in 1934, three priests and two laypeople were taken out of their special regime Kolyma camp... THEY WERE ASKED TO DENOUNCE THEIR FAITH IN JESUS, and were warned that if they did not do so they would be killed. They then declared their faith, and without any formal charges, they were then taken to a freshly dug grave and four of them were shot, while one was spared and instructed to bury the others".
<emphasis added>
- Dimitry V. Pospielovsky. A History of Soviet Atheism in Theory, and Practice, and the Believer, vol 2: Soviet Antireligious Campaigns and Persecutions, St Martin's Press, New York (1988)
__________
Nobody said atheism was the "singular" goal.
But your thesis is a non sequitur. The presence of an ideological goal, with atheism as a central tenet, in no way means the killing was for ideological reasons only.
Well there ya go. Four deaths. Only a few million to go and you've proved your point.

Friend, you're crawfishing. You've maintained categorically that Stalin did it "for atheism." In your simplistic declaration, repeated over and over again, you allow for no other factor except "for atheism". Seriously, one wonders if you recall what you write, or if you just hope volume trumps truth? Unfortunately, the few times you've felt compelled to write anything in support, your own facts equivocate your claim.

Stalin's agricultural policies resulted in a vast number of the deaths in this period. How do you morph those into "for atheism"? Stalin's Ukraine policy - how is that "for atheism"? Stalin's collectivization policies - where is the rationale there "for atheism"? Stalin's forced industrialization - "for atheism"? Show us please anywhere in any of Stalin's Five Year Plans the mention of advancing atheism?

Then, as an addendum, please explain for the class why, if it was all "for atheism" that when Stalin was feeling that by the 3rd Five Year Plan - when he felt he was achieving some of his goals of ruthlessly yanking Russia into the 20th century - why is it that he then relaxed his policies on religion, and even allowed the Orthodox Church to re-establish it's hierarchy? How does that fit into your "for atheism"? Please ask Mr. Pospielovsky about that and get back to us, won't you?

“Life may be sweeter for this”

Since: Nov 08

Fennario

#196108 Dec 26, 2013
Bongo wrote:
I would like to thank all of you atheists and the bifurcated atheist /agnostics for all the data shown in this forum. It has served to strengthen my faith in Jesus and further prove he is Lord ... All the yammering and dissent can never change the truth and the future that has been written about. Jesus is Lord.
Faith is obviously a beautiful thing, Bongo.

I have often said that it is indifferent to reason and evidence, but perhaps I was wrong. You offer us a different insight.
Bongo wrote:
"Don't imagine that I came to bring peace to the earth! I came not to bring peace, but a sword..
The values of secular humanism contradict the "Prince of Peace" there.
Bongo wrote:
Merry Christmas to all.
You're a little late for Merry Christmas, but Happy Holidays is still appropriate for most of a week.
Jim

London, UK

#196109 Dec 26, 2013
Dave Nelson wrote:
<quoted text>
Or a supernatural.
It is a belief that the here and now material world they exist in is all there can possibly be. With a fervent passion.
Most of these Topix atheists are the result of political persuasion harnessing the power of disenchantment. It is politics based, not intellectually based. They are just reacting to a fear of theocracies induced into them.
Hence the display of emotion and not real intellect by them on these forums. Jingoism and demonizing is their thing. It is all they know.
Religion is superstition. Religionists are angry that Atheists won't play pretend anymore.

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