Atheism requires as much faith as religion?

Atheism requires as much faith as religion? bearvspuma : The only problem with this rationalization is that ita s assuming all athiests are so because theya re intelligent in the ways of science and reasoning and all people that believe in a form of god are unintelligent. Full Story
LCNlin

United States

#175078 Aug 20, 2013
Mikko wrote:
<quoted text>
Scratch a christian and out pops Fred Phelbs and fundamentalistic christianity
In the United States the President
speaks of his faith.



How about Sweden,
Is the King an atheist?

Crown Princess Victoria and Daniel Westling were married on June 19, 2010, in Stockholm. In conjunction with the wedding, Daniel Westling was given the title H.R.H. Prince Daniel, Duke of Västergötland.

They had been married for 18 months when they had their first child. The new heir to the Swedish throne, Princess Estelle Silvia Ewa Mary, was born at 04.26 on 24 February 2012, at Karolinska University Hospital in Stockholm.
The King of Sweden

The king, Carl XVI Gustaf, is the seventh monarch of the House of Bernadotte. He was born on April 30, 1946, the fifth child and only son of Crown Prince Gustaf Adolf and Princess Sibylla of Sachsen-Coburg-Gotha. The crown prince died in a plane crash in Denmark the following year.

At the age of four, Carl Gustaf became crown prince of Sweden when his great-grandfather Gustaf V died and was succeeded by the then 68-year-old Gustaf VI Adolf, the crown prince’s grandfather.

Gustaf Adolf died after serving as monarch for 23 years, and the 27-year-old crown prince became King Carl XVI Gustaf in 1973.

His motto is “For Sweden – with the times.”
havent forgotten

Lamoni, IA

#175079 Aug 20, 2013
an not and - typo above, after words kind Christian.
havent forgotten

Lamoni, IA

#175080 Aug 20, 2013
Mikko wrote:
<quoted text>
Scratch a christian and out pops Fred Phelbs and fundamentalistic christianity
Hi. I do not agree with either you or the one you replied to. There are varieties of atheists, and varieties of Christians. Even our local conservative minister denounced the Phelps types at a local tea party rally (which was very sparsely attended, to my delight! Steve King territory is further NW in Iowa, closer to S Dakota.)
LCNlin

United States

#175081 Aug 20, 2013
Carl Gustaf was born at the Haga Palace, Solna, in Stockholm County.

He was christened at the Royal Chapel on 7 June 1946 by the Archbishop of Uppsala, Erling Eidem.

His godparents were the Crown Prince and Crown Princess of Denmark (his paternal uncle and aunt), the Crown Prince of Norway, Princess Juliana of the Netherlands, the King of Sweden (his patrilineal great-grandfather), the Hereditary Prince of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha (his maternal uncle), the Crown Prince and Crown Princess of Sweden (his paternal grandfather and stepgrandmother), and Count Folke and Countess Maria Bernadotte af Wisborg.

Since: Jun 13

Location hidden

#175082 Aug 20, 2013
Mikko wrote:
<quoted text>Scratch a christian and out pops Fred Phelbs and fundamentalistic christianity
Fred Phelps and that entire group are the perfect example of christians who are insane...many Christians push this far without a picket line...it's very scary.
havent forgotten

Lamoni, IA

#175083 Aug 20, 2013
Hidingfromyou wrote:
<quoted text>
You don't really understand what Dawkins was saying, do you? Or what "proof" means, hey.
I suspect I may also disagree with both you and the guy you were replying to. I don't read Dawkins or the other popular atheists - I suspect the self-promoter types are too much ego-involved and not intellectually purist enough. And I did not see what your argument was on previous pages.

First, I think one can be an agnostic atheist. Atheist means not believing in a God. Agnostic is a modifying word, meaning one who does not make a knowledge claim. So I am an agnostic atheist by my definition. I strongly believe that there is no burden of proof on an agnostic atheist. The person who claims to know - either that there is or is not a God, or anything else - is the one with the burden of proof in my view. Do you agree with me about that?

So the person you replied to was mistaken in asking you for proof unless you stated you know that there is no God or that there is proof that there is no God. If that person stated he knows there is a God or can prove it, that person has the burden of proof. But if that person merely said he believed in the existence of a God, I do not see why one can say he has to prove God exists. We can assume he is not telling a lie when he says he believes it,
unless he is under duress from family friends etc.

So is your view on this similar, or different from mine?
LCNlin

United States

#175084 Aug 20, 2013
havent forgotten wrote:
<quoted text> Atheism is not a religion. Some atheists seem to be on the offensive, others may seem to be on the defensive. Others just take it for granted, and try to explain rather than to argue.
I think it may be a matter of personality, as much as viewpoint.
An atheist who is on the offensive is more likely to claim he knows that there is no God, and more likely to be harsher toward believers in general. As an agnostic atheist, I do not believe in a God but I certainly do not make a claim about knowing there isn't or having proof that there isn't. And as one who cares more about ethics, I care much more about the ethical views which are intertwined with one's theological views, than about the theological views themselves.

A kind Christian is and OK person in my view, as long as the kindness is not just personal but also extends to that person's political activities and advocacy - i.e. there are good liberal social and economic justice Catholics in politics whom I like and admire. I also discriminate between a worse and better Pope, for example - former Pope ratty being a horrid person, and Pope John 23rd and the current one being better ones.
Yes, enjoyed your well thought out post.
Present Pope seems positive so far.

“Why does my ignorance”

Since: Mar 11

justify your deity?

#175085 Aug 20, 2013
LCNlin wrote:
<quoted text>
Defensive atheist,
seems to run in the religion,
oh sorry ....
NOT at religion
LOL
That wasn't a haiku.

“Why does my ignorance”

Since: Mar 11

justify your deity?

#175086 Aug 20, 2013
havent forgotten wrote:
<quoted text> I suspect I may also disagree with both you and the guy you were replying to. I don't read Dawkins or the other popular atheists - I suspect the self-promoter types are too much ego-involved and not intellectually purist enough. And I did not see what your argument was on previous pages.
First, I think one can be an agnostic atheist. Atheist means not believing in a God. Agnostic is a modifying word, meaning one who does not make a knowledge claim. So I am an agnostic atheist by my definition.
I will take you at your word. You are an agnostic atheist.

Rejoice!
I strongly believe that there is no burden of proof on an agnostic atheist. The person who claims to know - either that there is or is not a God, or anything else - is the one with the burden of proof in my view. Do you agree with me about that?
That sounds fair. It immediately sounds both neutral and carefully discerning.
So the person you replied to was mistaken in asking you for proof unless you stated you know that there is no God or that there is proof that there is no God. If that person stated he knows there is a God or can prove it, that person has the burden of proof. But if that person merely said he believed in the existence of a God, I do not see why one can say he has to prove God exists. We can assume he is not telling a lie when he says he believes it,
unless he is under duress from family friends etc.
So is your view on this similar, or different from mine?
I respect your view, but think that the evidence strongly suggests that (human made) deities are false.although quite clearly I dannot "prove" that no deities exist.
havent forgotten

Lamoni, IA

#175087 Aug 20, 2013
LCNlin wrote:
<quoted text>
Aerobatty wrote:
<quoted text>
I am atheist.
That proof enough?
Not exactly proof :-)
I think it proves aeorobatty is smart, not that there is no God. It is wiser not to believe in a God, in my view - but not because there is proof that there is no God. If there were proof it would not be merely a belief. What is required is an educated and moral guess, plus enough sense to know that the word God is not adequately defined in a way enough persons can agree upon. Even despite disagreements among different faiths, the Gods most folks seem to believe in are unworthy of the praise that seems to be implied.
havent forgotten

Lamoni, IA

#175088 Aug 20, 2013
LCNlin wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes, enjoyed your well thought out post.
Present Pope seems positive so far.
Thank you. You are interesting in your comments, and you will find that my quibbles with other atheists and my feud with Skeptic are accompanied with a friendliness towards persons who have fine ethical views (by my definition - which includes compassion in politics as well as personal life) even despite theological views I might disagree with. I am afraid it does not make me able to be a bridge between moral believers and moral nonbelievers in a forum like this - but I do think that bridge must be maintained on political matters - as it was in supporting civil rights bills in the l960's for example, when progressive religious leaders were in alliance with non-religious progressives.
The enemy is those who are those whose actions are cruel, not those whose views on this or that matter of doctrine we disagree with. Of course actions do include indoctrinating others with cruel views on ethics and claiming that they are derived from some true theology that cannot be disputed.
havent forgotten

Lamoni, IA

#175089 Aug 20, 2013
I_see_you wrote:
<quoted text>
Fred Phelps and that entire group are the perfect example of christians who are insane...many Christians push this far without a picket line...it's very scary.
I want to brag about my home town and my home state, please pardon! My town has a college (part of Graceland University) founded by one of the religious groups derived from Joseph Smith's group - once called Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (the monogamous ones who split off from plygamous Mormons who went on west), and now called Community of Christ. I have friends in that church though I am an agnostic atheist.

Students at that university put on a production of the Laramie Project - about the killing of the young gay man in Wyoming, and reactions to it. People from the Phelps group came to picket. They were on one side of the street. Many many students were on the other side of the street with signs saying God is Love.

On another occasion: Our local conservative Baptist minister spoke at a (poorly attended!) tea party rally and denounced the Phelps family for being haters.

A high school in Des Moines gave out scholarships honoring Matthew Shepherd. Phelps family folks came to picket and protest. Hundreds of high school students were on the other side of the street with signs opposing the Phelps family. The Des Moines Register published two large photos of the two groups on its front page.

Now I admit that among rightwing religious types and Republicans especially, there is strong anti-gay marriage fervor as part of the rightwing Christian political movement here. Its leader was not nominated for Governor (a pro-business interest type ex-Governor beat him in the primary), but they did defeat Iowa Supreme Court Justices who had voted to uphold gay marriage rights under the Iowa Constitution, but this was during an off-year election. In 2012 they did not defeat another such Justice.

I also admit that Steve King is from NW Iowa, land of fewest colleges in Iowa.

We are a battleground, and Ted Cruz came here recently to appeal to the ultra rightwing types, and Brown came to test the waters at the state fair. You will see how Republicans decide in 2016, when caucus returns come in.(Romney and Santorum essentially tied in 2012). But Obama carried the state both in 2008 and 2012. Biden campaigned in 2008 and openly supported gay rights here that early.

“Think&Care”

Since: Oct 07

Location hidden

#175090 Aug 20, 2013
havent forgotten wrote:
<quoted text> please explain a bit more about your phrase "the notion of causality is itself problematic".
What I mean is that it is rather difficult to give a precise definition of the phrase 'A causes B'. Hume talked about this and described some of the pitfalls of the concept.
I am a variety of determinist, and do not believe in free will.
Well, determinism, in the sense that the conditions of the universe at one time determine what the conditions will be at all times, is definitely false. Quantum events are inherently probabilistic and 'hidden variable' theories have been excluded by actual observations. I have not ever seen a decent definition of the term 'free will', although I have seen claims that determinism and free will are not mutually contradictory. Look up Dennett's book 'Freedom Evolves' for a discussion.
So what is your view regarding free will and causality, and what are the other problems regarding causality that you meant? I know that after does not mean because of.
And that is one of the problems: what exactly *does* it mean to say that something causes something else? As far as I can see, this quickly gets entangled with questions concerning the nature of physical laws and of time. And neither of these is a trivial issue.

“YO BOO”

Since: Sep 07

land of BOO

#175091 Aug 20, 2013
Hidingfromyou wrote:
<quoted text>
Hard to tell, really. He's writing and not speaking.
he's dumb
havent forgotten

Lamoni, IA

#175092 Aug 20, 2013
froggy wrote:
Support those who seek "truth" ---- doubt those who claim to have found it.
I agree with the last part. I support those who seek to find sufficient evidence regarding important matters that human beings can take action based on a sensible risk assessment of the consequences if one is mistaken . best example. global warming.

better to build windmills and be wrong, than to litter the earth with fracking and be mistaken.
havent forgotten

Lamoni, IA

#175093 Aug 20, 2013
thanks for your very interesting reply. I did not mean determinism in the sense you mentioned. Though I certainly think there are lots of variables we might not know about and not know we don't know. And I do think that chaos types of events do contribute to what happens. I read Hume as well, but not physics.
polymath257 wrote:
<quoted text>
What I mean is that it is rather difficult to give a precise definition of the phrase 'A causes B'. Hume talked about this and described some of the pitfalls of the concept.
<quoted text>
Well, determinism, in the sense that the conditions of the universe at one time determine what the conditions will be at all times, is definitely false. Quantum events are inherently probabilistic and 'hidden variable' theories have been excluded by actual observations. I have not ever seen a decent definition of the term 'free will', although I have seen claims that determinism and free will are not mutually contradictory. Look up Dennett's book 'Freedom Evolves' for a discussion.
<quoted text>
And that is one of the problems: what exactly *does* it mean to say that something causes something else? As far as I can see, this quickly gets entangled with questions concerning the nature of physical laws and of time. And neither of these is a trivial issue.

“There is no god!”

Since: Jun 12

Location hidden

#175094 Aug 20, 2013
LCNlin wrote:
<quoted text>
In the United States the President
speaks of his faith.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v =8uMbkKAmpNIXX
How about Sweden,
Is the King an atheist?
Crown Princess Victoria and Daniel Westling were married on June 19, 2010, in Stockholm. In conjunction with the wedding, Daniel Westling was given the title H.R.H. Prince Daniel, Duke of Västergötland.
They had been married for 18 months when they had their first child. The new heir to the Swedish throne, Princess Estelle Silvia Ewa Mary, was born at 04.26 on 24 February 2012, at Karolinska University Hospital in Stockholm.
The King of Sweden
The king, Carl XVI Gustaf, is the seventh monarch of the House of Bernadotte. He was born on April 30, 1946, the fifth child and only son of Crown Prince Gustaf Adolf and Princess Sibylla of Sachsen-Coburg-Gotha. The crown prince died in a plane crash in Denmark the following year.
At the age of four, Carl Gustaf became crown prince of Sweden when his great-grandfather Gustaf V died and was succeeded by the then 68-year-old Gustaf VI Adolf, the crown prince’s grandfather.
Gustaf Adolf died after serving as monarch for 23 years, and the 27-year-old crown prince became King Carl XVI Gustaf in 1973.
His motto is “For Sweden – with the times.”
Still the state is democratic and the prime minister is an atheist

“There is no god!”

Since: Jun 12

Location hidden

#175095 Aug 20, 2013
havent forgotten wrote:
<quoted text> Hi. I do not agree with either you or the one you replied to. There are varieties of atheists, and varieties of Christians. Even our local conservative minister denounced the Phelps types at a local tea party rally (which was very sparsely attended, to my delight! Steve King territory is further NW in Iowa, closer to S Dakota.)
i know but i just wanted to make the fundamentalist a bit angry

“There is no god!”

Since: Jun 12

Location hidden

#175096 Aug 20, 2013
LCNlin wrote:
Carl Gustaf was born at the Haga Palace, Solna, in Stockholm County.
He was christened at the Royal Chapel on 7 June 1946 by the Archbishop of Uppsala, Erling Eidem.
His godparents were the Crown Prince and Crown Princess of Denmark (his paternal uncle and aunt), the Crown Prince of Norway, Princess Juliana of the Netherlands, the King of Sweden (his patrilineal great-grandfather), the Hereditary Prince of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha (his maternal uncle), the Crown Prince and Crown Princess of Sweden (his paternal grandfather and stepgrandmother), and Count Folke and Countess Maria Bernadotte af Wisborg.
The state is a democracy and the prime minister is an atheist the king doesn't have any political powers

“It's all about the struggle”

Since: Jun 10

Location hidden

#175097 Aug 20, 2013
ChristineM wrote:
<quoted text>
That’s dunning kruger for you
Look who's talking.

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