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Atheism requires as much faith as rel...

# Atheism requires as much faith as religion?

There are 257356 comments on the Webbunny tumblelog story from Jul 18, 2009, titled Atheism requires as much faith as religion?. In it, Webbunny tumblelog reports that:

Atheism requires as much faith as religion? bearvspuma : The only problem with this rationalization is that ita s assuming all athiests are so because theya re intelligent in the ways of science and reasoning and all people that believe in a form of god are unintelligent.

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“Think&Care”

Since: Oct 07

Location hidden

#174926 Aug 18, 2013
The Almighty Tzar wrote:
<quoted text>
"Take 1 marble and smash it into another 1 marble at high energy. You will get 0 pebbles and a variety of fragments."
This is not 1+1
This is something like ((1(impact survivability speed))/(speed))+((1(impact survivability speed))/(speed))=x
"Take 1 quart of water and 1 quart of alcohol and mix them. You will not get 2 quarts of mixture, but slightly less."
This is not 1+ 1= 2
This is 1a + 1b = 1a + 1b
"Take 1 proton and smash it into another 1 proton. You will often get out 3 protons and one anti-proton. Sometimes you will get more."
1a+1a+E=x
Well these formulas are not perfect you should get the idea that you are adding more to the equation then just 1+1.
And that is part of my point: that simply stating that 1+1=2 misses important aspects when it is applied to a physical situation. Whether the abstract rules apply or not is a matter of observation and testing, not of pure logic.

“Proud Member”

Since: Dec 10

#174927 Aug 18, 2013
lightbeamrider wrote:
<quoted text> About time. When defining the age of the universe time is defined linear. 16 bil yrs ago or whatever. Now time is defined as a point on a globe?

Time is defined as the temporal distance between two points.
Specifically the temporal distance between the start counting, and the stop counting. This line can be effected by acceleration the same way space can be curved, acceleration curves the path between the temporal distance between two points.

“Robert Stevens”

Since: Dec 08

#174928 Aug 18, 2013
Bob of Quantum-Faith wrote:
<quoted text>
Of course you don't think that-- you are in the MAJORITY at the present time.
But that time has come-- and is going, fast.
Soon?
Soon you **will** be required to justify your bigotry and hate-- or you will be penalized for public display of it.
Just as you can no longer openly display your hate for People Of Color in the US?(well-- for the most part)
And you are rapidly losing your "right" to display your hatred of LGBT?
Soon enough, you'll be in the **minority** with regards to your idiotic beliefs.
You really ought to be thinking about **that** and begin formulating your "justification" for your ugly hatebeliefs.
According to Dr Michael Newton what you suggest will happen. I do see Atheist reacting as you suggest. Atheism will remain a unproven faith. You'll prove Orwell correct as you introduce things like 2+2=5. It will be the end of science as we know it, because my original statement is true and you know it. That is Atheism can't be a proven fact, unless man knew everything. We won't know everything but in such a society we would pretend we do, actually more like demand it. Books will be burned and sciences will be forbidden. All because The Universe is gathering so many intelligent beings that not all of them could have intelligent souls. I would predict a cleaner Earth, but when Earth dies so would the Human Race.

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“Think&Care”

Since: Oct 07

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#174929 Aug 18, 2013
lightbeamrider wrote:
<quoted text> BS, Why do you make these idiot comparisons? What are you attempting to accomplish? 1+1=2 is true within its own context which is elemental math. You pull it out of context for what purpose other than obfuscation? You introduce a chess game for what? 1+1=2 exists in the same manner as E=MC2 as abstract concepts not time dependent. Because they are abstract they lack causal power. Truth is not time dependent. These constructs point to a source which is also not time dependent. We call that source God.
I meant it in a very literal and precise sense: we invent the rules of chess. A game of chess is supposed to follow those rules to be a 'valid' game. You can have problems where, for example, you give a particular position and ask for how to get checkmate in, say, 3 moves. It is an abstract system.

In exactly the same way, we invent the rules for math and logic. Once those rules are decided, we call an argument 'valid' if it follows those rules. But whether those rules apply to any given situation is determined by testing and observation.

Even your example of E=mc^2 is a proposed *physical* link that needs to be tested to see if it is valid or not. In point of fact, it misses some subtleties; light doesn't obey this equation. Nor do masses in motion. For such we actually have E^2=m^2c^4 +p^2 c^2 where p is the momentum of the particle. This is true even for photons (light) because m=0 and E=pc.

So, your example actually proves my point: whether the abstract system is true for the real world is a matter of observation and testing. it is not automatic.

Finally, the fact that mathematics and logic follow from assumptions and rules of inference has absolutely nothing to do with the existence or non-existence of a deity. We make the rules, we follow those rules and we do experiments to see if those rules apply to reality. Sometimes they do and sometimes they do not. It isn't nearly as automatic as you might think.

This was first noticed in math about 200 years ago when it was realized that geometry is NOT a priori, as everyone up t that point expected. Non-Euclidean geometry is just as consistent as ordinary geometry but with different assumptions and different conclusions. For example, in ordinary geometry, the angles of a triangle add up to 180 degrees. That is false for non-Euclidean geometry. Different assumptions lead to different conclusions.

In the same way, there are number systems where 5 is not prime, or where 1+1=0, or where you get different results depending on the order of multiplication. All of these are internally consistent and are just as good as 'ordinary' arithmetic. Many are even useful for understanding the real world.

Even logic has variances. There are versions of logic where the law of excluded middle fails; where propositions do not have to be either true or false; etc. Once again, different assumptions lead to different conclusions. Whether any particular collection of assumptions is useful or not for understanding the real world is a matter of testing and observation.

Since: Jun 12

Location hidden

#174930 Aug 18, 2013
polymath257 wrote:
I meant it in a very literal and precise sense: we invent the rules of chess.
Which involves intelligence. The game starts with an idea and a purpose. It is not random. So i don't really know what your point is here as it relates to your conclusions since you do not allow for intelligence.
In exactly the same way, we invent the rules for math and logic.
We cannot invent what was already there. They are discovered. The universe is intelligible and points to a source. That source is what we call God. I have no comment on the rest of your post.

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Since: Sep 08

#174931 Aug 18, 2013
Hidingfromyou wrote:
<quoted text>
Wow, I didn't know that was possible.
Uhm, how did you go from the above to the below?
<quoted text>
I understand biological processes a lot better than you do, Dave, and I find your conclusions inferring a creator unwarranted.
Evolution by natural selection.
<quoted text>
3.9 billion years of evolution isn't enough time?
Really? And you know this how?
<quoted text>
Awesome. Can't want to hang out with him again.
"On another note.
Keep your running shoes handy. Godzilla has been twitching and will be waking soon."

"Awesome. Can't want to hang out with him again."

http://www.weather.com/news/volcano-japan-sak...

"The eruption is the latest in a string of recent natural calamities in Japan. A deadly, record-shattering heat wave has gripped Japan most of this month. Northern Japan suffered deadly landslides earlier this month and has seen additional heavy rainfall and floods in more recent days"

You know I am a figurative writer.

I went through a lot of trouble finding that post. I won't do it again.

Pay attention, little girl. Listen to Dave.

I said he was twitching. While your lectures can put us to sleep, I would suggest you shift to lullabies or an appropriate Buddhist chant.

You really want him to go back sheepy bye. Very soon.

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“Think&Care”

Since: Oct 07

Location hidden

#174932 Aug 18, 2013
lightbeamrider wrote:
<quoted text> Which involves intelligence. The game starts with an idea and a purpose. It is not random. So i don't really know what your point is here as it relates to your conclusions since you do not allow for intelligence.
My point is that *we* invent the rules. We are the intelligence.
We cannot invent what was already there. They are discovered.
The rules of math and logic are not discovered; they are invented by us. The laws of physics are discovered, but they are not produced by an intelligence: they are descriptions of how the natural worlds works.
The universe is intelligible and points to a source.
I disagree that the intelligibility of the universe points to a source. That seems to be your basic assumption without any proof. In fact, the evidence we have points *away* from an Underlying intelligence and *to* the simple dynamics of the natural world.

Specifically, why do you think an intelligence is required? How would things be different without an intelligence? What evidence do you have of this?
That source is what we call God. I have no comment on the rest of your post.
I am not surprised. It was probably too much for you to comprehend. No, math and logic are not 'out there' to be discovered. Instead, they are rules we invent to help us understand the universe around us. We decide what the rules are to make the whole more comprehensible to us. And like I said, there are even alternative rules that can and are used for certain purposes.
Bongo
#174933 Aug 18, 2013
Dave Nelson wrote:
<quoted text>
"On another note.
Keep your running shoes handy. Godzilla has been twitching and will be waking soon."
"Awesome. Can't want to hang out with him again."
http://www.weather.com/news/volcano-japan-sak...
"The eruption is the latest in a string of recent natural calamities in Japan. A deadly, record-shattering heat wave has gripped Japan most of this month. Northern Japan suffered deadly landslides earlier this month and has seen additional heavy rainfall and floods in more recent days"
You know I am a figurative writer.
I went through a lot of trouble finding that post. I won't do it again.
Pay attention, little girl. Listen to Dave.
I said he was twitching. While your lectures can put us to sleep, I would suggest you shift to lullabies or an appropriate Buddhist chant.
You really want him to go back sheepy bye. Very soon.
bwhahaha, oh, are all these calamities plaguing Japan acts of God?

Since: Sep 08

#174934 Aug 18, 2013

A most interesting and enlightening video about establishing standards. The stuff you use in physics. It is about how the kilogram came to be and is established.

These are the basis of all calculation as far back as they started using them. There was a discussion a day or so about compounding of error.

That is a good presentation.

You should realize the arbitrariness that can creep into physics and its determinations if you base it on standards such as this instead of ratios. Ratios are more process oriented, which lowers the idol count, and gives a better picture of what is what.

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“Proud Member”

Since: Dec 10

#174935 Aug 18, 2013
polymath257 wrote:
<quoted text>
My point is that *we* invent the rules. We are the intelligence.
<quoted text>
The rules of math and logic are not discovered; they are invented by us. The laws of physics are discovered, but they are not produced by an intelligence: they are descriptions of how the natural worlds works.
<quoted text>
I disagree that the intelligibility of the universe points to a source. That seems to be your basic assumption without any proof. In fact, the evidence we have points *away* from an Underlying intelligence and *to* the simple dynamics of the natural world.
Specifically, why do you think an intelligence is required? How would things be different without an intelligence? What evidence do you have of this?
<quoted text>
I am not surprised. It was probably too much for you to comprehend. No, math and logic are not 'out there' to be discovered. Instead, they are rules we invent to help us understand the universe around us. We decide what the rules are to make the whole more comprehensible to us. And like I said, there are even alternative rules that can and are used for certain purposes.
We provide understanding by definition, we define what is seen. We have become increasingly more accurate in definition. AND, This is a human thing, that was not given but was taken , by many years of discovery.

Believers will never understand this, they believe things.
They do not require the need that they be true, only desirable to their belief.

While we by definition , categorize and sort all mysteries out and take the good with the bad. No matter if it were desirable to understand the consequences of it or not.
The believers will manufacture the belief to fit at any price.

“YO BOO”

Since: Sep 07

land of BOO

#174936 Aug 18, 2013
Aura Mytha wrote:
<quoted text> We provide understanding by definition, we define what is seen. We have become increasingly more accurate in definition. AND, This is a human thing, that was not given but was taken , by many years of discovery.
Believers will never understand this, they believe things.
They do not require the need that they be true, only desirable to their belief.
While we by definition , categorize and sort all mysteries out and take the good with the bad. No matter if it were desirable to understand the consequences of it or not.
The believers will manufacture the belief to fit at any price.
you provide bull-\$#!t

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Since: Sep 08

#174937 Aug 18, 2013
Bongo wrote:
<quoted text> bwhahaha, oh, are all these calamities plaguing Japan acts of God?
I don't know about God, Catcher. Could be Buddha reading Topix and a little peeved at Hiding.

You get warpage on structures when you change things like energy levels and heat. Most notably on large structures, like the ground. You can easily fall into very minute percentagewise changes in hundreds or thousands of miles. This is happening all over the globe, but perhaps with a bit more oomph than we have been used to. Your global warming. Energy seeks equilibrium. It don't matter what gets in the way.

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Bongo
#174938 Aug 18, 2013
Dave Nelson wrote:
<quoted text>
I don't know about God, Catcher. Could be Buddha reading Topix and a little peeved at Hiding.
You get warpage on structures when you change things like energy levels and heat. Most notably on large structures, like the ground. You can easily fall into very minute percentagewise changes in hundreds or thousands of miles. This is happening all over the globe, but perhaps with a bit more oomph than we have been used to. Your global warming. Energy seeks equilibrium. It don't matter what gets in the way.
Ah good ol irresistible force
Dr shrink
#174939 Aug 18, 2013
Dave Nelson wrote:
<quoted text>
I don't know about God, Catcher. Could be Buddha reading Topix and a little peeved at Hiding.
You get warpage on structures when you change things like energy levels and heat. Most notably on large structures, like the ground. You can easily fall into very minute percentagewise changes in hundreds or thousands of miles. This is happening all over the globe, but perhaps with a bit more oomph than we have been used to. Your global warming. Energy seeks equilibrium. It don't matter what gets in the way.
bongo
is psychopath, and his halucinations are worse everyday

those posters made him horrible sick and delusional- IT IS MANIACIAL SHISOPHREMNIA qualify him only to close mental institution

around globe nothing happen,only government media false propganda Lies and suck money from idiots beliving them from you too?

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“The King of R&R”

Since: Dec 07

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#174940 Aug 18, 2013
lightbeamrider wrote:
<quoted text> License to be obnoxious. 100% correct. That is all atheism is. An imaginary license to behave in any way they choose with no accountability to anyone or anything. It is the ultimate delusion. To be fair there are a few notable exceptions, Poly, Hiding and Aura come to mind.
Be advised Dave Nelson was hospitlized for 5 years to cure its delusional accusations against the True Believers!

Since: Jun 12

Location hidden

#174941 Aug 18, 2013
Hidingfromyou wrote:
<quoted text>
If you're not claiming his physics is wrong, then no worries.
<quoted text>
Oops! My bad - I thought you wrote "cannot" as in, the universe cannot make itself, but you didn't. So we're not in agreement. Sorry, my mistake. I don't necessarily agree with the statement that the universe can make itself, nor disagree with it, but I cannot negate that myself.
<quoted text>
So Hawking is claiming that gravity preceded time? I didn't understand that he was making that statement.
<quoted text>
Hawking, his name is Hawking. You're confusing it with Dawkins, also an atheist.
- not all events have causes (like quantum events. If I'm not mistaken, he's arguing that the universe came into existence b/c of a quantum event).
<quoted text>
Because all of our scientific theories describe phenomena with absolutely no deities. Now, I cannot say to you "therefore God does not exist" but the way that science describes reality is exactly as if no deities existed.
We have no reason to suspect any special cases that exist where deities must be part of the theoretical framework. Further, if we add them, we lose explanatory power.
Please keep in mind that alone does not disprove deities exist. You remain welcome to that inference.
<quoted text>
I don't really follow you here.
Uhm...you didn't explain why the universe requires a creator, or why it's absurd to think the universe could be something from nothing. I've asked around 3 times now (more if you count w/in the same post).
I did go to the theater to see the movie Wolverine yesterday. It was my day off and i was in the area. The movie took place in Japan. Two female actors and the Wolverine against the bad guys. So you should go see that movie. Actually i didn't think it was all that great but it was fun. I found a book for you on line. Won't cost you a thing except your time.

http://www.tro.dk/getFile.aspx...

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Anon
#174942 Aug 18, 2013
Dave Nelson wrote:
<quoted text>
"On another note.
Keep your running shoes handy. Godzilla has been twitching and will be waking soon."
"Awesome. Can't want to hang out with him again."
http://www.weather.com/news/volcano-japan-sak...
"The eruption is the latest in a string of recent natural calamities in Japan. A deadly, record-shattering heat wave has gripped Japan most of this month. Northern Japan suffered deadly landslides earlier this month and has seen additional heavy rainfall and floods in more recent days"
You know I am a figurative writer.
I went through a lot of trouble finding that post. I won't do it again.
Pay attention, little girl. Listen to Dave.
I said he was twitching. While your lectures can put us to sleep, I would suggest you shift to lullabies or an appropriate Buddhist chant.
You really want him to go back sheepy bye. Very soon.
Hey, between Godzilla and Mothra, which one's the bigger badass?

“My name is Trunks...”

Since: Jun 10

the alternate future

#174943 Aug 18, 2013
discocrisco wrote:
Maybe, the Christians got it right on the God thing. What they didn't know that is there is intelligent life right and God manifested himself in another way than us.
And there is millions of our civilizations among this universe and millions of ways God revealed himself to them
But see it was none of business to know how he did it. It is beyond our feeble little minds. Us humans think we are terminally unique. Guess what. We are not. We are little specks in the infinite, large cosmos.
I tend to agree with your words, but I don't really think God exists at all. Yeah, us humans are not very important. But we don't need to believe in a sky daddy in order to be happy in life.

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Since: Sep 08

#174944 Aug 18, 2013
Bongo wrote:
<quoted text> Ah good ol irresistible force
You can't fight it, Catcher. You can only go with its flow.

Scientific fact.

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“A sentient umbrella speaks”

Since: Mar 11

Some stable somewhere

#174945 Aug 18, 2013
Robert Stevens wrote:
<quoted text>
Every morning I awake. I don't see why I should be persuading you towards my religious beliefs. This is a tread for you to prove yours. In an era of many people giving their beliefs, I don't rank Atheist in the top 10 of likelihood.
It's not a thread to prove my beliefs. It's a thread to discuss the similarities between faith in religion and faith in atheism, if such a thing exists.

I've written on this exhaustively and settled the matter sometime back.

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