Atheism requires as much faith as religion?

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Atheism requires as much faith as religion? bearvspuma : The only problem with this rationalization is that ita s assuming all athiests are so because theya re intelligent in the ways of science and reasoning and all people that believe in a form of god are unintelligent.
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Thinking

Gillingham, UK

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#173565
Aug 6, 2013
 

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You're the mental that thinks something to the East is "past" something to the North. Things have to be in roughly the same direction to be "past" each other.

Back to school with you, twart!
The Almighty Tzar wrote:
<quoted text>
"look like a factually incorrect jackass"
"Christians lives are built on this dishonesty."
Givemeliberty wrote:
I am especially proud of my volunteer work and donations to the humanist cause. Every year I go to the Philippines and spend thousands on food,water, clothing and medicine for the needy there. After a horrific typhoon and flooding there I was there amongst others 14 hours a day handing out supplies, giving life saving injections and treatments to those who lost their home. I stood and watched as homeless children lined up easily 3 miles deep for a package of crackers sandwich fruit and bottle of water. Unwanted children who were born because the Christian ran theocracy light government makes it nearly impossible for a woman to obtain birth control. My wife is in pre-med classes and wants to practice medicine there free to help those poor children. Here in the states I collect donations for running in marathons with the money going to children's charities and cancer or HIV awareness programs.
I have seen first hand time and time again the damage and heart breaking situations brought on by theists. The same theists who come crawling to us to help fix their mess! Oh but while we are fixing it are we thanked? Nope. We barely get the figurative broom in hand and they are shrieking at us for not believing in their imaginary friend.
Honor? I guess it is a relative term. The dozen of urban low income students I assist for free with their biology and pharmaceutical homework at two different colleges locally would probably say good ole KJ is an alright dude.
Now if coming on topix and giving the theists a little taste of backbone, the theists who try to intimidate and silence non believers because they think we should all be meek and humble and tolerate their abuse and repeated logical fallacies makes me vile, Without reason, Disrespectful, In someone's opinion? So be it, hmmm I will chuckle about how vile And disrespectful I am Friday at U of L for the 6 hours I am assisting the students there as a volunteer. Or perhaps this summer as I am passing out thousands of dollars worth of free medicine and other essentials trying to save some more homeless from dying. Yes I was walking by a group of people there and they were huddled together praying loudly and crying. I looked in and a young girl was on the ground dying of dehydration. Instead of getting her water and rushing her to the hospital they stood there holding hands and praying! I grabbed my cell phone and called for an ambulance and started trying to get her to drink. Slowly she sipped the water as the praying continued. The ambulance came after almost an hour and reluctantly took her to the hospital, the paramedic said she was good as dead and best leave it in the hands of Jesus same thing the crowd thought. She died 18 hours later. They didn't even know her name and couldn't figure it out.
I guess I'll somehow deal with being called disrespectful.
<quoted text>
"I semi-retired except for collecting and inspecting my rental properties. I live comfortably off my stock dividends, porn sites I own, early retirement from work and rental properties here in the states and in the Philippines. "
OMG. It's getting better all the time!!!
You're retired except for Porn and your wife is still in school!
Baaaaahaaaaaahaaaaa
Please stop!!!!
Lol BAAAAAHAAAAHAAAAA !!!!
Liberty wrote:
I am a 32 year old multi-racial man with a Johnson bigger than anyone in your family
Baaaaahaaaaaahaaaaa
Please stop!!!!
Lol BAAAAAHAAAAHAAAAA !!!!
"if I didn't have the strong secular morals"
Please you've got to be kidding me!
No more I can't take it!
Baaaaahaaaaaahaaaaa
Please stop!!!!
Lol BAAAAAHAAAAHAAAAA !!!!
Thinking

Gillingham, UK

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#173566
Aug 6, 2013
 

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Because religitards lie about Darwin all the time.
Roman Apologist wrote:
I have a question. Why is evolution and Darwinism so important to atheists?

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#173567
Aug 6, 2013
 
polymath257 wrote:
Because we know from other sources and the actual digs at the scene that the Exodus did not happen. It was an origin legend for that society. But it was written hundreds of years after it supposedly happened and has many anachronistic aspects in it. Among other things, it seems to be unaware that Egypt controlled the holy lands at the time. The time of David was actually in the time when the texts were written, so is far more likely to be accurate about some types of things.
We were discussing Jesus myth theory. Many in your camp here do not believe in historical Jesus. What about you? Nor do they agree on the dates. The moderns assign a date which would make it incompatible with Egyptian records.

http://www.starways.net/lisa/essays/exodus.ht...

A papyrus dating from the end of the Old Kingdom was found in the early 19th century in Egypt [6]. It seems to be an eyewitness account of the events preceding the dissolution of the Old Kingdom. Its author, an Egyptian named Ipuwer, writes:

Plague is throughout the land. Blood is everywhere.
The river is blood.
That is our water! That is our happiness! What shall we do in respect thereof? All is ruin!
Trees are destroyed.
No fruit or herbs are found...
Forsooth, gates, columns and walls are consumed by fire.
Forsooth, grain has perished on every side.
The land is not light [dark].

Velikovsky recognized this as an eyewitness account of the ten plagues. Since modern men are not supposed to believe in such things, it has been interpreted figuratively by most historians. The destruction of crops and livestock means an economic depression. The river being blood indicates a breakdown of law an order and a proliferation of violent crime. The lack of light stands for the lack of enlightened leadership. Of course, that's not what it says, but it is more palatable than the alternative, which is that the phenomena described by Ipuwer were literally true.
When the Bible tells us that Egypt would never be the same after the Exodus, it was no exaggeration. With invasions from all directions, virtually all subsequent kings of Egypt were of Ethiopian, Libyan or Asiatic descent. When Chazal tell us that King Solomon was able to marry Pharaoh's daughter despite the ban on marrying Egyptian converts until they have been Jewish for three generations because she was not of the original Egyptian nation, there is no reason to be surprised.

“You have blue shoes”

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#173568
Aug 6, 2013
 
Roman Apologist wrote:
I have a question. Why is evolution and Darwinism so important to atheists?
Evolution is the framework theory for all biological sciences. It's both explanatory and predictive; it explains biological phenomena that we observe under one umbrella theory elegantly, and it generates new knowledge via producing testable, disprovable hypotheses.

There were atheists prior to evolutionary theory. Evolution itself is not central to being an atheist, though it's hard to imagine someone who rejects the concepts of mythology would dispute contemporary biological science.

Also, evolution - like all of our scientific theories - require no deities for them to function. That is, they're purely materialist in nature. This produces two results: First, they're powerfully explanatory and second, atheists have no dispute with them, unlike some strange religions that deny science.

“You have blue shoes”

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#173569
Aug 6, 2013
 
lightbeamrider wrote:
<quoted text> We were discussing Jesus myth theory. Many in your camp here do not believe in historical Jesus. What about you? Nor do they agree on the dates. The moderns assign a date which would make it incompatible with Egyptian records.
http://www.starways.net/lisa/essays/exodus.ht...
A papyrus dating from the end of the Old Kingdom was found in the early 19th century in Egypt [6]. It seems to be an eyewitness account of the events preceding the dissolution of the Old Kingdom. Its author, an Egyptian named Ipuwer, writes:
Plague is throughout the land. Blood is everywhere.
The river is blood.
That is our water! That is our happiness! What shall we do in respect thereof? All is ruin!
Trees are destroyed.
No fruit or herbs are found...
Forsooth, gates, columns and walls are consumed by fire.
Forsooth, grain has perished on every side.
The land is not light [dark].
Velikovsky recognized this as an eyewitness account of the ten plagues. Since modern men are not supposed to believe in such things, it has been interpreted figuratively by most historians. The destruction of crops and livestock means an economic depression. The river being blood indicates a breakdown of law an order and a proliferation of violent crime. The lack of light stands for the lack of enlightened leadership. Of course, that's not what it says, but it is more palatable than the alternative, which is that the phenomena described by Ipuwer were literally true.
When the Bible tells us that Egypt would never be the same after the Exodus, it was no exaggeration. With invasions from all directions, virtually all subsequent kings of Egypt were of Ethiopian, Libyan or Asiatic descent. When Chazal tell us that King Solomon was able to marry Pharaoh's daughter despite the ban on marrying Egyptian converts until they have been Jewish for three generations because she was not of the original Egyptian nation, there is no reason to be surprised.
Perhaps both accounts are using metaphors to describe a drought coupled with a plague.

“I started out with nothing”

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#173570
Aug 6, 2013
 

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Roman Apologist wrote:
<quoted text>
I accept the Merriam-Webster dictionary definition which is derived from common word usage and is constantly reviewed by linguistic experts. Atheism is the rejection or denial that a god (any god) exists. It is an active choice to believe that. Ignorance on the other hand, is simply lack of knowledge of any specific subject. I can be ignorant of the most recent Supreme Court decisions, but that doesn't mean a decision with regard to a specific law hasn't been made. If atheism was simply the lack of belief, then you wouldn't be rejecting every evidence we present. If you want to say that atheism is simply a lack of belief based upon lack of knowledge, then let's not call it atheism. Let's call it aignorance. If that's the case then we're all aignorancists. You can be entitled to your own opinions, but as you're so quick to tell us, you're not entitled to your own facts. I'll take the dictionary definition thank you.
What you accept is beside the point. There are other definitions defined in perfectly good dictionaries that are just as valid. Because you don’t accept them is simply down to your own deliberate ignorance.

You have not produced ANY evidence worthy of rejection, you have not produced any evidence period. What you have produced is unverified supposition.

Call it what you like, this seems to be a christian trait of calling things that have perfectly good definitions by other names just to make them feel better about themselves. There is the ubiquitous Truth, note the capital T, which in christian speak denoted it from actual truth and is actually a perversion of faith or belief.

Why are you lying? is it because you are christian, I have never said that you are not entitled to facts.

You may take ONE dictionary definition, that’s up to you, there are others

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/atheis...
2. disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings.

http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/engl...
disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.

“You have blue shoes”

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#173571
Aug 6, 2013
 

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Roman Apologist wrote:
I'm not a young-earth-creationist at all. In fact I believe the earth is at least 7 million years old. Maybe older. I don't buy that it's billions of years old. Sorry, the evidence just doesn't convince me of that.
polymath257 wrote:
<quoted text>
I guess you are only off by a factor of a thousand rather than a factor of a million. What evidence did you look at and why didn't it convince you of at least 'billions'? Seven million years only gets us about 1/9 of the way back to the dinosaurs. And I would say the dates are very accurate back much farther than that.
So...should we call Roman a "young universe Christian?"

hahaha! That's hilarious - from a human perspective, what's the difference between millions and billions? None. Yes, of course they're massively different on a universe time scale, but really, can people comprehend those many years? Apparently not Roman, who requires a much, much younger universe.

I'd say the dating techniques are becoming more and more accurate all the time. Our dates for the age of the Earth and the Universe have been narrowed down such that no one disputes them. People are just trying to refine them.

“I started out with nothing”

Since: Nov 10

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#173572
Aug 6, 2013
 

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Roman Apologist wrote:
<quoted text>
So the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles traveled back in time, posed as Christians, and forged every known copy of Tacitus, Suetonius, and Josephus in existence? LOL
<quoted text>
Now that's just incorrect.…

… I don't disrespect any person really. But the Jesus as a myth argument is so lazy it deserves a level of contempt that would make Richard Dawkins proud of of the contempt itself.
You are free to live in your fantasy dreamland if you want, that’s up to you but there is NO evidence that the late JC existed as described in the babble. To claim otherwise is lying.

The forgery of the Josephus text on jesus is credited to the monk Eusebius, as for the others, you, yourself were ranting about how they came long after the claimed events. In the case of Tacitus some 100 years later. Note that his sources are dubious at best with several glaring errors and historical inaccuracies. The only works of Tacitus that are accepted as historical fact are works that can be verified independently. As for Suetonius (again unverifiable) there are arguments as to whether his citing of “Chrestus”(a real name) applies to the late JC or some other Jewish zealot agitator with a Greek name. His second mention of christians does not mention any individual other than Nero.

I am assuming no such thing, I am stating that Romans kept records (fact), in some case the aeidile’s (or who ever) life depended on the accuracy of those records so for the most part they were accurate. Who was discussing today’s standards? Oh that was you trying to impose obfuscation.

Again, I am assuming no such thing and your deliberate lying of my intentions is noted. Not all tax records survived but some did some can be verified by independent and contemporary documentation and it is this verification that you are keen to ignore because it blows the jesus story out of the water.

How and why Judea was conquered is beside the point, the fact remains that that Vespasion pressed the assault on Judea and Titus finished it.

I find it rather childish of you to make claims of what I accept and don’t accept as evidence based on nothing more than you own belief and ignorance.

I accept what is found in multiple forms of evidence, There is considerable factual evidence of the NT period, none includes jesus. There is evidence of the father of the guy you call jesus (I have seen his grave) He is also documented in the book that christianity carefully selected their OT from, funnily enough they omitted the verses that contradict their faith. There is evidence of his sons crucifixion (on charges of terrorism) and there is evidence of his so called resurrection (no magic involved). There is evidence (including evidence by none other than a guy named Saulus, you know him as St Paul) of how he came to prominence as the posthumous leader of a group of terrorists known as the Fourth Philosophy. There is evidence that corroborates the writing of Saulus by both Josephus and in the Roman archive for the time of Titus. There is evidence that the name jesus was attached to this terrorist in a screw up in translation of the archives into Greek nearly 100 years after events.

Evidence, that is the key, not faith or believing what my dad or my vicar told me but actual evidence.

FYI, I have researched this period and was involved in sorting and compiling the data that was used in books such as

Sara Reinke - Pantera
Robert Eisenman – James, the brother of Christ,
Hyam Maccobys – The Mythmaker,
Danial Underbank – Judas the Galilean: the flesh and blood Jesus
Paul Cresswell – Jesus the Terrorist

What you are doing is concocting a chain of imaginary possibilities based on the “if” of mythology that has no evidence to back it up.

You claim not to disrespect me yet you insist on attempting to hoik your mythology, apologist excuses and condescending BS on me as evidence bases on pure mist and imagination.

“I started out with nothing”

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#173573
Aug 6, 2013
 
Religionthebiglie wrote:
<quoted text>
I thought you were goading herders :)
Nope, not my style, goading christians is fun though

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#173574
Aug 6, 2013
 
Hidingfromyou wrote:
<quoted text>
Perhaps both accounts are using metaphors to describe a drought coupled with a plague.
I c/p this from another poster who reflects general Christian thought on the matter very well.

''Jesus seemed to vote for Moses!

Again Jesus indicates His approval of Moses' writtings in Luke 16:27-31 (NKJV):
“Then he <the rich man who died and went to Hades> said,‘I beg you therefore, father <Abraham>, that you would send him to my father’s house, for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’

Abraham said to him,‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’

And he said,‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’

But he said to him,‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’”

But what about those that don't believe Moses? It seems that the apostle Peter had this to say (hey, wasn't he supposed to be the first pope?):
2 Peter 3: 3-7
knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, and saying,“Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.” For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water. But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.ite record

Also, just as some folks do not believe the story of Jonah was real, you, dear fusilier, don't believe the words of Moses, the words of Jesus, or your Bible (except for those choice cherry-picked parcels you want to believe). The point I am trying to get to is that I would believe the Bible if it said that Jonah swallowed a whale instead of the other way around (but, again, the actual word is "great fish", not "whale"). Sure, call me ignorant. I don't care. The Bible has been shown to be correct on a number of occasions that the "experts" said it was wrong on... and the scoffing "experts" will continue to be wrong.

And not to start some side-track argument in this thread (please start another), personally, I don't think Jonah did live for three days in the belly of a great fish, I think he was dead - then resurrected! That was the sign that Jesus gave to His unbelieving generation and is still a sign for us today.''

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#173575
Aug 6, 2013
 
Givemeliberty wrote:
Once again nobody has made a religion based on the civil war. People also didn't wait 50 years after it ended to finally write it. All throughout it we had photos, records, letters and newspapers reporting the events. No unwritten God man walked into the city with thousands of formerly dead Jews in tow. Your question again factually answered. I await your historical proof that Christians employed this oral tradition for decades until it was written. The Jews used oral tradition but they also kept written documentation as a back up just in case someone was saying something incorrect this was vitally important to them. Without written back ups the probability for errors becomes a given. Okay you asked for historians, unlike you who hasn't even attempted to answer why Joseph would be mentioned in Jesus' family tree if he wasn't the father :) I have facts. No need for biblical fan fiction or excuses on why I can't answer the question.
Well known Historians in Jerusalem at the time of Jesus who documented much but somehow missed this resurrected god man who kicked butt in the temple with his whip.
1: Aulus Perseus
Lets take a look at your first one. Did he write anything about Israel?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persius

ersius, in full Aulus Persius Flaccus (Volterra, 34–62), was a Roman poet and satirist of Etruscan origin. In his works, poems and satires, he shows a stoic wisdom and a strong criticism for the abuses of his contemporaries. His works, which became very popular in the Middle Ages, were published after his death by his friend and mentor the stoic philosopher Lucius Annaeus Cornutus.

“Think&Care”

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#173576
Aug 6, 2013
 

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lightbeamrider wrote:
They were nomads in the Dessert. What are you looking to find?
Nomads leave quite extensive records: fire pits, garbage heaps, dropped tools, etc. A crowd of a thousand would be quite evident in the Sinai. And that is quite a bit less than the proposed Exodus.
BS. It is written and understood as history. All over the multiple accounts in the Old and repeated by both Josephus and Philo. This is only off the top of my head. I could probably come up with more.
And the foundation of Rome by Romulus and Remus was written as history also. That doesn't make it true. it was part of the *legend* that society used to explain its existence. In reality, there was no exodus except for culturally from the mountain tops.
I think you are just regurgitating. You don't seem to be able to comprehend historians glean out information from biased sources and if you don't know that then you don't know much. This is an article pertaining to Hitchens by another atheist. He makes a point here pertinent to this discussion.
Provide any archeological evidence for the Exodus. Explain why the 'invasion' of the Holy Land left no records. The whole story is an anachronism: an origin myth placed backwards in time.

“Think&Care”

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#173577
Aug 6, 2013
 
lightbeamrider wrote:
<quoted text> We were discussing Jesus myth theory. Many in your camp here do not believe in historical Jesus. What about you? Nor do they agree on the dates. The moderns assign a date which would make it incompatible with Egyptian records.
I see it as plausible that an itinerant preacher talking about the things attributed to Jesus and that had a number of followers including Zealots existed at that time. In fact, we know there were several.
A papyrus dating from the end of the Old Kingdom was found in the early 19th century in Egypt [6]. It seems to be an eyewitness account of the events preceding the dissolution of the Old Kingdom. Its author, an Egyptian named Ipuwer, writes:
Plague is throughout the land. Blood is everywhere.
The river is blood.
That is our water! That is our happiness! What shall we do in respect thereof? All is ruin!
Trees are destroyed.
No fruit or herbs are found...
Forsooth, gates, columns and walls are consumed by fire.
Forsooth, grain has perished on every side.
The land is not light [dark].
And why does this show the Biblical story is correct? At most it supports one aspect of the story. But given that it is easily understood as metaphor, it doesn't even do that effectively. Considering that the disruption of the Old Kingdom wasn't exactly peaceful, the metaphor that the rivers run with blood is not extreme.
Velikovsky recognized this as an eyewitness account of the ten plagues.
Velikovsky? Seriously? As in planets in collision?

“Think&Care”

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#173578
Aug 6, 2013
 
Roman Apologist wrote:
I have a question. Why is evolution and Darwinism so important to atheists?
Why is it so anathema to theists?

Evolution is important in the same way that the heliocentric view of the solar system is important. It is one of those basic facts that any educated person should know about. Other such facts include the fact that all living things today are made of cells and that the sun is a star running on nuclear fusion.

The problem is that this particular scientific fact has been attacked by the theists to the place that they pass legislation banning its teaching in schools. Instead, they insist that their long discredited views (which had been replaced before Darwin entered the scene) be taught as equally valid. This is lying to the students.

“Think&Care”

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#173579
Aug 6, 2013
 
Hidingfromyou wrote:
<quoted text>
<quoted text>
So...should we call Roman a "young universe Christian?"
hahaha! That's hilarious - from a human perspective, what's the difference between millions and billions? None. Yes, of course they're massively different on a universe time scale, but really, can people comprehend those many years? Apparently not Roman, who requires a much, much younger universe.
I'd say the dating techniques are becoming more and more accurate all the time. Our dates for the age of the Earth and the Universe have been narrowed down such that no one disputes them. People are just trying to refine them.
We have solid three decimal place accuracy on the age of the universe. You would have to ask a geologist for the accuracy of the age of the earth, but my impression it is about the same level. There are issues about exact definitions since the earth formed over a period of time. Do you measure from the first collisions? when it became large enough to form a sphere? when it cooled enough to have solid rocks?

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Aug 6, 2013
 

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polymath257 wrote:
<quoted text>
I see it as plausible that an itinerant preacher talking about the things attributed to Jesus and that had a number of followers including Zealots existed at that time. In fact, we know there were several.
So you are a Jesus myther.
And why does this show the Biblical story is correct?
Its evidence. You say there is none? The problem is not with the evidence but how the evidence is interpreted. You say you need archeological evidence for the Exodus which is nothing more than special pleading given the weight of actual written evidence which has survived along with their sources which did not survive. For example 2 Kings 22:8. The book of the Law was found. That reference pre dates the Kings account by who knows how many years? That is just one example. Under your standard you need archeological evidence to establish any ancient historical account. Is that correct? All this ignores the fact the moderns were wrong time and again when it comes to Scripture and yet your faith is with the moderns. How many times can they be wrong and you still trust them?
spudgun

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#173581
Aug 6, 2013
 
polymath257 wrote:
<quoted text>
Nomads leave quite extensive records: fire pits, garbage heaps, dropped tools, etc. A crowd of a thousand would be quite evident in the Sinai. And that is quite a bit less than the proposed Exodus.
Agreed. The archeological record does not support the Exodus account, and neither does the work of Egyptologists. The current best guess of the origin of the Israelities is that they simply emerged from the Canaanites, and that the first books of the Bible are just a fabrication.

But even if we take a leap of faith that they contain some historical roots. What does it prove? That bronze age/ iron age goat herders thought it was ok to own slaves, ok to stone disobedient children, and for rapists to marry the rape victims. This primtive mythology should have been classed with other world mythologies, and treated as such.

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#173582
Aug 6, 2013
 
polymath257 wrote:
<quoted text>
I see it as plausible that an itinerant preacher talking about the things attributed to Jesus and that had a number of followers including Zealots existed at that time. In fact, we know there were several.
<quoted text>
And why does this show the Biblical story is correct? At most it supports one aspect of the story. But given that it is easily understood as metaphor, it doesn't even do that effectively. Considering that the disruption of the Old Kingdom wasn't exactly peaceful, the metaphor that the rivers run with blood is not extreme.
<quoted text>
Velikovsky? Seriously? As in planets in collision?
Does not mean he was wrong about everything. Metaphor? What a laugh. the problem, once again is not with the evidence. The problem is with your excuses and your special pleading. Moving the goal posts. Dismissing it as metaphor when it is clearly written and understood as history. Like i said before your hopeless bias has crippled you.

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#173583
Aug 6, 2013
 
lightbeamrider wrote:
<quoted text> Does not mean he was wrong about everything. Metaphor? What a laugh. the problem, once again is not with the evidence. The problem is with your excuses and your special pleading. Moving the goal posts. Dismissing it as metaphor when it is clearly written and understood as history. Like i said before your hopeless bias has crippled you.
What is clearly written and understood as history? The exodus. How can anything with no evidence to validate it be classed as history? It is written in the Torah and is understood as a metaphor. Yet when it has been (selectively) copied into the OT and you consider that history?

WHY?

“H-o-o-o-o-o-o-ld on thar!”

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#173584
Aug 6, 2013
 
polymath257 wrote:
<quoted text>
No. When Tacitus talks about fulfillment of the Sabine predictions, I do not believe him. I believe that those ruling promoted that interpretation of events.
<quoted text>
No. When Seutonius describes Ceasar being lead across the Rubicon by the god Pan, I do not believe him. I believe it was a myth formulated (probably by Ceasar) to promote a specific agenda. I do not accept Seutonius's claims for the divine heritage of the emperors either. I do not believe Julius Ceasar was a descendant of Venus.
<quoted text>
No. When Josephus writes in his antiquities about the Exodus, I do not believe him. The archaeological evidence points to this event never happening.
So no, I do not take everything else these authors state at face value. They are all writing from a particular viewpoint and to a particular audience. They all relay the myths of their culture. Part of the job of a historian is to separate the legendary stories from the truth. In many cases, this is quite difficult. But, for example, there is good reason to disbelieve the story of the Gordian knot in the histories of Alexander the Great.
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Seutonius and Tacitus talk about the beliefs of the Christians at the time. I believe they give a mostly accurate account of those beliefs. I strongly doubt that either would have spent the time looking up records to verify that anyone was actually executed as the Christians believed. But I had no good reason to doubt the existed of believing Christians under Nero, for example.
Much of Josephus is also reasonable. But the passages where he mentions Jesus are clearly not in his typical voice. They are interpolations, probably done by later copyists. There was a known tendency to do that among the copyists and there was a definite ideological reason to do so.
The line is partly reasonableness of the claim. Any claim that violates known physical laws is most likely to be legendary or mythological. That is as true of the stories of Jesus as it is of the stories of Romulus and Remus.
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But the *belief* that someone rose from the dead is much different than someone actually rising from the dead.
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Wrong on all counts. Simply having someone rise fvrom the dead does not establish the existence of a deity. It would not show that Jesus was correct in his beliefs, let alone that Paul was correct in his. As it stands, it shows nothing other than there is a biological possibility that someone declared dead can be revived.
You are making *huge* logical leaps from flimsy evidence.
I've read 7420
Gaius Julius' "Gallic Wars" in the original Latin. Pure self-serving fiction...
I have no difficulty ascribing to the others you mention the same category.

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