Atheism requires as much faith as rel...

Atheism requires as much faith as religion?

There are 255515 comments on the Webbunny tumblelog story from Jul 18, 2009, titled Atheism requires as much faith as religion?. In it, Webbunny tumblelog reports that:

Atheism requires as much faith as religion? bearvspuma : The only problem with this rationalization is that ita s assuming all athiests are so because theya re intelligent in the ways of science and reasoning and all people that believe in a form of god are unintelligent.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at Webbunny tumblelog.

LCN Llin

United States

#173684 Aug 6, 2013
Hidingfromyou wrote:
<quoted text>
"Archaeologist Israel Finkelstein of Tel Aviv University also points out that there's no physical evidence that thousands of people wandered for decades in the desert. Besides, Jericho and other Canaanite cities described in the Bible didn't exist when the Israelites were supposed to be conquering them. Finkelstein says the Bible isn't just fantasy, though. He thinks the first books of the Bible were written in the seventh and sixth centuries B.C., long after the Exodus might have happened. The writers drew on a pool of folk tales, of myths, of shreds of evidence to build a history for Israel, he says."
http://www.usnews.com/usnews/culture/articles...
It's only a news story, but they're interviewing archaeologists.
2003 print edition of U.S. News & World Report.

“Quantum Junctn: Use Both Lanes”

Since: Dec 06

Tulsa, Oklahoma USofA

#173685 Aug 6, 2013
Hidingfromyou wrote:
<quoted text>
"Archaeologist Israel Finkelstein of Tel Aviv University also points out that there's no physical evidence that thousands of people wandered for decades in the desert. Besides, Jericho and other Canaanite cities described in the Bible didn't exist when the Israelites were supposed to be conquering them. Finkelstein says the Bible isn't just fantasy, though. He thinks the first books of the Bible were written in the seventh and sixth centuries B.C., long after the Exodus might have happened. The writers drew on a pool of folk tales, of myths, of shreds of evidence to build a history for Israel, he says."
http://www.usnews.com/usnews/culture/articles...
It's only a news story, but they're interviewing archaeologists.
I have read of that idea previously-- the oldest stories in the bible date to about 500-600 BCE, and no earlier.

All were written to **seem** much older, when in fact, they were not.

“Quantum Junctn: Use Both Lanes”

Since: Dec 06

Tulsa, Oklahoma USofA

#173686 Aug 6, 2013
Roman Apologist wrote:
After a quick search on Google I'm noticing a trend. First of all, it must be acknowledged that very good records of Roman activity have been found in Egypt where the climate is conducive to such preservation of documents. Parts of Israel? Not so much. So we can't assume that the passage of time has worked in either your favor or mine. Records could have been kept but there is no reason to suggest that they survived to the modern era. So we're both left empty handed. If you want to claim a victory based upon the absence of evidence, it's a hollow victory because we don't know for sure if Pilate wrote anything or not. He may have, and it may just be lost to history.
Secondly, another important point is that Rome was all about it's citizens. And guess what? Most Jews of first century Palestine were NOT Roman citizens. Jesus wouldn't have received much historical reporting at all unless he was actually leading an armed revolt. And he wasn't.
So on these two points, it's not unreasonable to conclude that Jesus would have never been written about. He wasn't a Roman citizen, and he wasn't a militant revolutionary. The standard reaction would be to disregard him as another irrelevant religious fruitcake. So why write about him?
Now if you want to insist that SOMEBODY with Roman status wrote about him, then we have to go back to Josephus and Paul. Both were Roman citizens. And they're the closest sources we have with regard to contemporary or near-contemporary accounts.
Here's a publication by Mary Smallwood that will confirm the point I have made.
"no complementary accounts written from the Roman angle survive to balance that of Josephus .... In Roman eyes Judea was an unimportant province and most events there were too insignificant to merit a place in the record of the empire as a whole until a major war developed"
http://books.google.com.au/books...
Well... if your findings are correct?

Then, it pretty much wipes out the whole idea of Jesus being a god, doesn't it?

Such a minor, insignificant personage who gets nary a mention, could hardly be a god, now could he?

I'd expect **better** documentation from an actual godly offspring.

As a bare minimum of standards.

“A sentient umbrella speaks”

Since: Mar 11

Some stable somewhere

#173687 Aug 6, 2013
Catcher1 wrote:
<quoted text>
bla.
bla bla bla

“A sentient umbrella speaks”

Since: Mar 11

Some stable somewhere

#173688 Aug 6, 2013
LCN Llin wrote:
<quoted text>
2003 print edition of U.S. News & World Report.
Yeah, I linked to it.

“A sentient umbrella speaks”

Since: Mar 11

Some stable somewhere

#173689 Aug 6, 2013
Bob of Quantum-Faith wrote:
<quoted text>
I have read of that idea previously-- the oldest stories in the bible date to about 500-600 BCE, and no earlier.
All were written to **seem** much older, when in fact, they were not.
It's also in "archaeology today" but I just don't have time to bother looking it up.

“Seventh son”

Since: Dec 10

Will Prevail

#173690 Aug 6, 2013
Bob of Quantum-Faith wrote:
<quoted text>
True.
But even those super computers must be programmed-- using the correct maths.
And making a computer do calculus? Isn't as easy as it is teaching your average human.
:)
I know-- I learned calculus back in the day, and I have programmed computers too-- I was a programmer for 17 years, in fact.
On the other hand, doing the multiple-sum simulations, which would take a human days or years, it a matter of seconds or at worst, minutes on a super computer, so...
:)
Yeah me too, I saw a guy who was modeling star collapse, to black holes. His models showed they don't explode like we were taught years ago. But I would imagine they could explode and then collapse in some cases. Swing and hit, swing and the club went flying ..lol

“Seventh son”

Since: Dec 10

Will Prevail

#173691 Aug 6, 2013
Bob of Quantum-Faith wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes... Rome's economy, like much of the world in those days, was slave-based.
Not a lot has changed in the interim, has it?
We're still slaves to our needs, even today.
:)
At least we have the freedom to move elsewhere, though.
Thought you or anyone else might like this, it say's it's realistic
and you can recreate historic missions, best of all ..it's free.
http://orbit.medphys.ucl.ac.uk/

Since: Mar 11

Henderson, KY

#173692 Aug 6, 2013
Another fallacy is that the Egyptians didn't document the exodus because it would have been embarrassing to the empire. But that doesn't fly because several failures were documented even mocking of members of the royal family! Certainly all the first born boys getting killed overnight would have been written about.
Hidingfromyou wrote:
<quoted text>"Archaeologist Israel Finkelstein of Tel Aviv University also points out that there's no physical evidence that thousands of people wandered for decades in the desert. Besides, Jericho and other Canaanite cities described in the Bible didn't exist when the Israelites were supposed to be conquering them. Finkelstein says the Bible isn't just fantasy, though. He thinks the first books of the Bible were written in the seventh and sixth centuries B.C., long after the Exodus might have happened. The writers drew on a pool of folk tales, of myths, of shreds of evidence to build a history for Israel, he says."

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/culture/articles...

It's only a news story, but they're interviewing archaeologists.

Since: Mar 11

Henderson, KY

#173693 Aug 6, 2013
Even if you remove the miracles and just go on totally natural human things he was said to have done he still would have been documented by several historians both roman and Jewish during the course of his life.

For example.... And yes our christhole friends always run away from this.... The temple area especially around Passover was a huge area the size of several Football fields. It was heavily guarded by armed roman soldiers because there was always nutters and pickpockets and messiah wannabes using the event to gain a rep and followers... Cough cough.... Anyways it was heavily monitored and guarded. The bible says Jesus although being raised a Jew would have seen thousands of sacrifices and animals being sold for that as few had the land to raise their own animals, but this time he gets furious over this life long tradition for him... Oh no!!! So he makes a whip and uses it to intimidate and chase people just doing their jobs out of the temple area. Somehow in this huge festival all the security both Jewish and roman missed the event... Or maybe he was such a maniac they were to scared to approach him! Either way this would have been a huge deal! And it would have easily been documented by several as this would have been such an outrage for a long established holy festival. The Jews documented less rude interactions but this one somehow escaped them...

It must have been that olive oil sale! The Rabbis were like... Son of God brandishing a whip in the temple area? Let me grab a scroll and ink and.... Hey!! That's some damn fine olive oil!
Wait what were talking about?
Bob of Quantum-Faith wrote:
<quoted text>Google is your friend here.

I'm sorry-- I no longer have access to that material-- it was quite a while ago, and mostly in dead-tree editions (which I no longer have).

Be that as it may? It hardly matters, does it?

The most damning thing is this:

**nothing** by **any** historian about Jesus **during** his alleged lifetime.

Not one jot.

Not even a tiddle.(to borrow from Proverbs)

Why?

If Jesus was so **all** fired **important**?

Would not it behoove god to see that Jesus was ...**documented**?

As a bare minimum of behavior?

Since: Mar 11

Henderson, KY

#173694 Aug 6, 2013
If your guy was born around 700ad we are talking about two different guys... Sorry but my facts stand and your links help verify them.

When Jesus was on the cross he should have said.. Father why aren't they documenting this? Why have you let them forsake me for pottery and olive oil sales?
Roman Apologist wrote:
<quoted text>Your facts stand in sand. On number 6 I am not referring to a different person they are the same, you know it, and you're a deliberately dishonest liar. You're giving intellectual atheism a bad name. There. I said it. And I don't regret saying it. Now if you wish to keep playing this silly game that you suck at, then you'll need to come up with some real evidence. I need to see something. I posted links to support every refutation, and all of them were from secular sources. Surely you can do the same. Oh and about your reference to Seneca, you didn't say if it was Seneca the Elder or Seneca the Younger. You might want to specify before throwing your monkey poop at the wall to see what sticks. You're pathetic.

“The King of R&R”

Since: Dec 07

Location hidden

#173695 Aug 7, 2013
Roman Apologist wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes the burden of proof is indeed on the prosecution. But the default position on historical evidence is not skepticism as with the hard sciences. Evidential based claims regarding history are the exception to the rule. UNLESS there is a very good reason not to, historic claims are accepted rather than rejected, so long as measures (such as the ten tests) are in place to neutralize bias as much as possible. Now on to your next point where I have real world professional experience.
<quoted text>
I have worked as a licensed private investigator and as a military police patrolman. In insurance claims and fraud investigations, a police accident report and medical treatment document are necessary and acceptable evidences that you were in fact in a motor vehicle accident (MVA). A sling might convince the average Joe, but I can admit to being cynical and skeptical after seeing my share of fraudulent claims.
<quoted text>
I would be skeptical, but you wouldn't need to provide the emerald to satisfy me. An authenticated statement from a local reputable jeweler or local certified geologist would suffice. Especially if you were filing an insurance claim of theft of said emerald.
<quoted text>
You have a point here. So what would suffice as proof? Well a working space shuttle or recently used lunar module would be a nice bit of evidence, along with NASA and local flight plan confirmation. Eye-witness accounts from neighbors who saw the lift-off (who could hide that earth shaking event?:)) would be a nice touch. Insanity or a pathological disorder manifested in lying would be my first guess. I can admit that.
<quoted text>
But here is where we disagree. More in the next post.:)
What on the planet do your rantings and ravings have to do with proving the existence of your imaginary god?
spudgun

Stoke-on-trent, UK

#173697 Aug 7, 2013
Givemeliberty wrote:
Even if you remove the miracles and just go on totally natural human things he was said to have done he still would have been documented by several historians both roman and Jewish during the course of his life.
<quoted text>
I dont buy the Jesus myth theory, because I think that if they gospels were a pure fabrication, you could expect them to be better written. Being as they are a mish-mash of stories and myths, contradicting each other and with many absurdities. This I think would fit in with the creation of legends and myths around a hero figure in the past, written decades after the events.

The same idea that has been proposed for the Greek gods and myths, which I think I am right in saying, some later Greeks thought were based loosely on real people and hero cults, which evolved over time into the gods and legends of greek mythology.
LCN Llin

United States

#173698 Aug 7, 2013
spudgun wrote:
<quoted text>
I dont buy the Jesus myth theory, because I think that if they gospels were a pure fabrication, you could expect them to be better written. Being as they are a mish-mash of stories and myths, contradicting each other and with many absurdities. This I think would fit in with the creation of legends and myths around a hero figure in the past, written decades after the events.
The same idea that has been proposed for the Greek gods and myths, which I think I am right in saying, some later Greeks thought were based loosely on real people and hero cults, which evolved over time into the gods and legends of greek mythology.
Thanks, excellent post

Satan is the one true god

Since: Aug 13

Winter Park, FL

#173699 Aug 7, 2013
WHO WAS THIS GOD?
- God was his father
- He was born in a cowshed.
- A human woman, a virgin, was his mother.
- His birth was prophesized by a star in the heavens.
- At a marriage ceremony, he performed the miracle of converting water into wine.
- He was powerless to perform miracles in his hometown.
- His followers were born-again through baptism in water.
- He rode triumphantly into a city on a donkey. Tradition records that the inhabitants waved palm leaves.
- He had 12 disciples.
- He was accused of licentious behavior.
- He was killed near the time of the Vernal Equinox, about MAR-21.
- He died "as a sacrifice for the sins of the world."
- He was hung on a tree, stake, or cross.
- After death, he descended into hell.
- On the third day after his death, he returned to life.
- The cave where he was laid was visited by three of his female followers.
- He later ascended to heaven.
- His titles: God made flesh. Savior of the world Son of God.
- He is "God made man," and equal to the Father.
- He will return in the last days.
- He will judge the human race at that time.
- Humans are separated from God by original sin. The godman's sacrificial death reunites the believer with God and atones for the original sin.

Did you guess Jesus Christ? Well, again you'd be WRONG!! HE WAS... OSIRIS-DIONYSUS, an Egyptian God that existed thousands of years before Christ allegedly came around

“Think&Care”

Since: Oct 07

Location hidden

#173700 Aug 7, 2013
Roman Apologist wrote:
After a quick search on Google I'm noticing a trend. First of all, it must be acknowledged that very good records of Roman activity have been found in Egypt where the climate is conducive to such preservation of documents. Parts of Israel? Not so much. So we can't assume that the passage of time has worked in either your favor or mine. Records could have been kept but there is no reason to suggest that they survived to the modern era. So we're both left empty handed. If you want to claim a victory based upon the absence of evidence, it's a hollow victory because we don't know for sure if Pilate wrote anything or not. He may have, and it may just be lost to history.
True enough.
Secondly, another important point is that Rome was all about it's citizens. And guess what? Most Jews of first century Palestine were NOT Roman citizens. Jesus wouldn't have received much historical reporting at all unless he was actually leading an armed revolt. And he wasn't.
On the other hand, the Romans were very keen to report anything linked to the supernatural: they were continually trying to figure out what the gods wanted. So a giant earthquake and dead 'saints' roaming the streets would have been very big news. If that happened at the execution of a criminal, it would definitely have been noticed.

Also, it is important to realize who Jesus' followers were. The Zealots were the Taliban of the time, at least in the eyes of the Romans. With the number of Zealots associated with Jesus, it is quite likely that they *did* see him as inspiring an armed revolt. This, in spite of whether he was or not.

Also, Judea wasn't simply a backwards province. It was also close enough to Parthia to be of interest whenever any unrest happened there. Now, the Romans preferred to work through a puppet government, and that was the arrangement at the time of Jesus. But, of course, that eventually failed and they invaded and took over control.

“Think&Care”

Since: Oct 07

Location hidden

#173701 Aug 7, 2013
Bob of Quantum-Faith wrote:
<quoted text>
I was wrong about the smoke detectors, which Polymath politely corrected me on-- it was Americium, not Californium.
Both are artificially created by engineers. I think they use linear accelerators and bombard other metals with high energy particles to get them to transform to Americium, but I'm far from certain about that.
Nope, done at nuclear reactors.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Americium

"Most americium is produced by bombarding uranium or plutonium with neutrons in nuclear reactors – one tonne of spent nuclear fuel contains about 100 grams of americium."

“Think&Care”

Since: Oct 07

Location hidden

#173702 Aug 7, 2013
Bob of Quantum-Faith wrote:
<quoted text>
As I understand it, the Sun's age is calculated by the current Helium content of the sun, He being a byproduct of Hydrogen fusion (naturally). And the assumption that the sun would have formed with the same ration of hydrogen/helium as is found in our local area via spectrograph analysis.
In short? Our sun has "too much" helium, as compared to other nearby non-star accumulations of matter. And measuring the rate of accumulation, with the current quantity, gives us it's age.
It's really not all that complicated a concept, once you understand some basics.
Of course, the **maths** involved would be calculus, right?:D
That would put it well beyond the abilities of your average god-believer...
The basic concept is easy enough. The devil is in the details. The rate of production is very dependent on temperature, so you have to have a very good model for the interior of the sun. Then you have to be able to model the convection from the core out to the surface (which is where we actually measure the helium). Neither one of those is simple.

For a long time, there were some serious questions about our model for the interior of the sun because of the 'solar neutrino problem'. We were detecting about 1/3 of the neutrinos from the core of the sun as what was predicted from our models. That implied a lower temperature and lower rate of production of helium (which would have implied an older sun, not a younger one). That was cleared up when neutrino oscillations were discovered: the three different types of neutrino can inter-convert. Helioseismology helps in modeling the convection, etc.

“Think&Care”

Since: Oct 07

Location hidden

#173703 Aug 7, 2013
Hidingfromyou wrote:
<quoted text>
It wasn't crucial to your point that the physics models predict their decay accurately and that if the claims of creationists were accurate, the decay rates would be wildly different.
I love that it's in everyday household safety devices.
The rates of radioactivity can be affected in several ways. But none of them are particularly helpful for the preservation of life (high neutron fluxes, for example). For any process even remotely possible on earth, the decays rates vary by *at most*.1% under very high pressures. And that only happens for those isotopes that can do beta capture. None of the ones used in geology have even that issue.

Contamination is a much more relevant factor. But even here, there are several ways to check to see if a rock has been contaminated. The isocron methods involving Rb/Sr can do this while also giving the original date and composition of the crystal.
spudgun

Stoke-on-trent, UK

#173704 Aug 7, 2013
Satan is the one true god wrote:
..OSIRIS-DIONYSUS, an Egyptian God that existed thousands of years before Christ allegedly came around
Preaching to the choir on that one. Incidentally, satanism is not atheism, it is a theism.

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