Atheism requires as much faith as religion?

Atheism requires as much faith as religion? bearvspuma : The only problem with this rationalization is that ita s assuming all athiests are so because theya re intelligent in the ways of science and reasoning and all people that believe in a form of god are unintelligent. Full Story

Since: Mar 11

Louisville, KY

#172297 Jul 16, 2013
Perhaps what you saw was a piece on how bone marrow is thought to be the silver bullet when it comes to Aids. Bone marrow treatments have given HIV patients some amazing results to be sure.
saidI wrote:
<quoted text>Sorry heard it on the "mainstream media" about two weeks ago. I believe the news came from USA. I'm not much of a researcher :(

“a.k.a. GhostWriter2U”

Since: Jul 13

Location hidden

#172298 Jul 16, 2013
Givemeliberty wrote:
Nope that would be unacceptable because Jesus had intelligent and even wealthy followers according to the myth. Any reasonably intelligent person would realize the critical importance of documenting and preserving the words and deeds of such a man immediately knowing full well vital details and words would be lost and forgotten.
<quoted text>
By modern Western standards, you would have a valid argument IF your comparison was between two similar modern Western cultures. But therein is the point of contention. My disagreement is based on the concept of your ethnocentrism. What I'm suggesting is that you are failing to recognize the difference in writing styles in our own modern time, and also in cultural styles. The ancient Hebrew culture was predominantly an oral culture. You're assuming that well educated articulate people would write this material down right on the spot, and that this literary skill would have been common to people in that culture. This is simply not true. So that's why I believe you're making an ethnocentric assumption based upon our own modern Western literary culture, and comparing it to an Middle Eastern orally dominated culture.

Consider the following:

1) Ancient cultures in the Mediterranean region were predominantly oral cultures. They passed on information from generation to generation by word of mouth. They did this through creeds. Creeds were almost poetic. They had a specific flow to them. Words were arranged in a format that was easy to remember. This information was memorized word for word, verbatim. This was the common method of communicating.

2) Yes, Hebrews could read and write. In fact, the percentage of Hebrew males that could read and write was higher than that of pagan nations in the Greco-Roman world. But that was still a very low number in contrast to the rest of the population.

3) There was no print based culture at that time. The printing press was still over a thousand years into the future. Papyrus was hand-made. Writing was a very slow, tedious, laborious process.

So here we have 3 points of consideration as to why there was a lack of writing from that period. I have more points that I can add if you're open to considering them.

“Incorrupta fides, nudaque veri”

Since: May 07

Vincit qui se vincit

#172299 Jul 16, 2013
Bob of Quantum-Faith wrote:
<quoted text>
I've never even had a warning message from the mods...
... go figure.
It's not hard to communicate within the rules, to avoid the ban-hammer.
A task that 90% of the fundie-god-botherers seem unable to grasp...
I've only received a couple warnings in my time and one of them was for no reason at all, I guess I used one of their filtered words? lol

“a.k.a. GhostWriter2U”

Since: Jul 13

Location hidden

#172300 Jul 16, 2013
Givemeliberty wrote:
Did Paul meet Jesus in the flesh? No.
Was all of Paul's interactions with Jesus in the form of visions and dreams? Yes.
How do you come to that conclusion? You're making claims without any supporting evidence for me to consider. You're asserting that it was visions and dreams but not supplying me with any reference point to support that.
Givemeliberty wrote:
You can belch that they were divine visions and dreams if you want to humiliate yourself as this is an apologetic opinion but my fact stands.
Your "fact" stands? On what authority? That's why I'm asking. I don't want to just offer an opinion. I want to offer a logical, plausible, coherent argument. Telling me that your fact stands without a supporting reference is a very bold maneuver.
Givemeliberty wrote:
If you are already aware of something stop wasting time asking me to provide information on it. Now can we finally please move along?
No we cannot just move along. You made an assertion that what Paul saw was a vision or a dream; yet it's not in the Damascus road account in the book of Acts. Paul doesn't claim it was a vision or dream. You're making a claim that Paul's Damascus Road event was that, and you're asserting that Paul said so himself. I'm simply asking where in the NT you found that, because I'm physically holding an NLT Bible and I've read and re-read the three accounts in the Book of Acts, and none of them claim that Paul claimed they were mere visions or dreams. I need a reference point or source to investigate. Surely that's not such an unreasonable request, especially when you have accused theists of cowering and not answering your questions.
Givemeliberty wrote:
Why is the first documented words about Jesus penned by a man who never even met him?
I already answered that in my previous posting.

“Quantum Junctn: Use Both Lanes”

Since: Dec 06

Tulsa, Oklahoma USofA

#172301 Jul 16, 2013
Givemeliberty wrote:
Exactly and it has been supposed that the man Jesus was invented to attract more Gentiles who were very fond of the whole son of god who dies for us and then returns.
When you look at the population of the region this does make sense.
<quoted text>
What is really amusing? Is that if you make a study of the evolution of religion during those beginning days?

You'll find that **all** religions in the region had evolved into a "man/god sacrifice/rebirth/dies-for-peo ple/immortality/etc"

They are so similar, they could have been written by the same people-- only the unimportant details are specific to the various people who's culture it sprang up in.

Without Constantine's force-conversion to his newly-minted "christianity", christianity would have died off like all the other cults did.

...*sigh*

And Earth would have skipped the Dark Ages... and?

We'd have colonies on the moons of Jupiter by **now**....!

“Quantum Junctn: Use Both Lanes”

Since: Dec 06

Tulsa, Oklahoma USofA

#172302 Jul 16, 2013
Givemeliberty wrote:
Yes Dr. Carrier and Dr. Price give fantastic examples of this. The miraculous son of god in that region was popularized by Alexander the Great who was believed to be the offspring of god. Even Julius Caesar was said to have divine origins and performed miracles as a child.
So making up this son of god walking around was very common in those days.
<quoted text>
It was the direction that religion of that era and area had evolved to... they all pretty much said the same set of myths.

“Quantum Junctn: Use Both Lanes”

Since: Dec 06

Tulsa, Oklahoma USofA

#172303 Jul 16, 2013
Givemeliberty wrote:
This is true and hallucinations were not understood at the time and just must have been from god! There's just no other answer because they didn't have Thorazine trees back then lmfao!
:))
<quoted text>
But... they did have mushrooms, and rye bread tainted with mold spores.....

.... and rye was the most common grain, back then.

And, of course, they had wine.

Mix some dinner wine with some moldy rye and a bit of undercooked mushrooms?

Viola! A **vision** from ***Gawd!***

Praze Jayzus! It's a **miracle**!

<LMAO>

“Quantum Junctn: Use Both Lanes”

Since: Dec 06

Tulsa, Oklahoma USofA

#172304 Jul 16, 2013
Givemeliberty wrote:
Perhaps what you saw was a piece on how bone marrow is thought to be the silver bullet when it comes to Aids. Bone marrow treatments have given HIV patients some amazing results to be sure.
<quoted text>
Google "Abby Smith" and "ERV". She's an HIV researcher who also writes a pretty good (scientific) blog on the subject.

One of her recent bits was about the bone marrow "success". She's cautious, but gives links to the original material.

She comes highly recommended.

“Exercise Your Brain”

Since: Jun 07

Planet Earth

#172305 Jul 16, 2013
Givemeliberty wrote:
Still scared to say what church you go to I notice.
<quoted text>
Of course he is. But that begs the question of whether or not he even attends a church. Is he here to speak up for religion or just a lonely little troll? We've seen his posts, he's a good poster boy for driving people screaming away from theism.

I've noticed that he and I both started posting on topix a few months apart.....then I saw the number of posts he's made.....

I picture him as a middle aged flabby man (possibly still living in his parent's basement) sitting at a computer day and night, gulping slushies, candy bars, fast food and chips.

I've honestly tried feeling sorry for him, he IS an obnoxious little toad. However, he's made his choices and he's welcome to reap the nonexistent benefits of his sad and lonely lifestyle.

“Quantum Junctn: Use Both Lanes”

Since: Dec 06

Tulsa, Oklahoma USofA

#172306 Jul 16, 2013
Roman Apologist wrote:
<quoted text>
By modern Western standards, you would have a valid argument IF your comparison was between two similar modern Western cultures. But therein is the point of contention. My disagreement is based on the concept of your ethnocentrism. What I'm suggesting is that you are failing to recognize the difference in writing styles in our own modern time, and also in cultural styles. The ancient Hebrew culture was predominantly an oral culture. You're assuming that well educated articulate people would write this material down right on the spot, and that this literary skill would have been common to people in that culture. This is simply not true. So that's why I believe you're making an ethnocentric assumption based upon our own modern Western literary culture, and comparing it to an Middle Eastern orally dominated culture.
Consider the following:
1) Ancient cultures in the Mediterranean region were predominantly oral cultures. They passed on information from generation to generation by word of mouth. They did this through creeds. Creeds were almost poetic. They had a specific flow to them. Words were arranged in a format that was easy to remember. This information was memorized word for word, verbatim. This was the common method of communicating.
2) Yes, Hebrews could read and write. In fact, the percentage of Hebrew males that could read and write was higher than that of pagan nations in the Greco-Roman world. But that was still a very low number in contrast to the rest of the population.
3) There was no print based culture at that time. The printing press was still over a thousand years into the future. Papyrus was hand-made. Writing was a very slow, tedious, laborious process.
So here we have 3 points of consideration as to why there was a lack of writing from that period. I have more points that I can add if you're open to considering them.
Each of your arguments would have some merit-- if you don't believe that Jesus was divine in any way, shape or form.

If he was but a man? Then sure, your arguments above have some reasonable weight to them.

Alas, if Jesus was just a man? Then the whole reason for your argument falls flat, for want of motive.

However, if Jesus was a god, as christianity claims?

Then-- we can easily expect-- at a bare minimum-- godly traits in this Jesus, including the ability to write in a godly fashion.

Alas, that turns out not to be the case: we have exactly zero writings from this Jesus character.

Rather an epic fail, from a ..

... divine character.
Joe Fortuna

Eureka, CA

#172307 Jul 16, 2013
I_see_you wrote:
<quoted text>
Oh I know... I don't mind carrying on, but when people start hurling insults, now that's just wrong. I actually believe that they very well may attend a church. That's sad really because it is doing them no good, but everything they do is all in the name of their "god". I say let them smear their imaginary friends name as much as they want to. It is up to them of course.
I guess you have a point, those christian that act like the clown surely give their religion a black mark.

“Quantum Junctn: Use Both Lanes”

Since: Dec 06

Tulsa, Oklahoma USofA

#172308 Jul 16, 2013
Ricky F wrote:
<quoted text>I've only received a couple warnings in my time and one of them was for no reason at all, I guess I used one of their filtered words? lol
The automatic warnings, everyone gets from time to time-- their filters are silly.

But I've heard from other posters, that occasionally they got an actual e-mail warning from the topix moderators.

I've never seen one myself, but I've had PM conversations with other posters who have had.

“Quantum Junctn: Use Both Lanes”

Since: Dec 06

Tulsa, Oklahoma USofA

#172309 Jul 16, 2013
Roman Apologist wrote:
<quoted text>
How do you come to that conclusion? You're making claims without any supporting evidence for me to consider. You're asserting that it was visions and dreams but not supplying me with any reference point to support that.
The bible itself claims it was but a dream. The story of the road to Damascus, is clearly a dream or vision of Paul's.

I'm surprised you are arguing this point at all.
Thinking

York, UK

#172310 Jul 16, 2013
I'm going to keep telling people you are necrophiliac christard.
But I have no interest in your elephantiasis riddled testicles.
T-Town Clown wrote:
<quoted text>what are you gonna do about it? and no you can't play with my junk = THE LARGE ONE

“Exercise Your Brain”

Since: Jun 07

Planet Earth

#172311 Jul 16, 2013
Ricky F wrote:
<quoted text>T-Town, you're one of the few people I still see who's been posting as long as I have and that's a rare site these days!
You rarely see anyone either still posting or using their original moniker.
And what am I, chopped liver? I don't have the posts under my belt that you guys/gals do, but I have survived;0)
Joe Fortuna

Eureka, CA

#172312 Jul 16, 2013
albtraum wrote:
<quoted text>
RA seems to have never hear the parable of 'turn the other cheek' although that's a bit lopsided the *other* way.
That is a little bit to far for me too. I can live with, sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will not hurt me.

“Exercise Your Brain”

Since: Jun 07

Planet Earth

#172313 Jul 16, 2013
Bob of Quantum-Faith wrote:
<quoted text>
Here's an excellent summary, and why it's both exciting but also we need to keep a sober attitude.
ERV is an amazing researcher in HIV/AIDS, and her blog is an excellent resource for keeping up.
" http://scienceblogs.com/erv/2013/07/07/two-pa... ;
Thank you Bob! This is more exciting and suspenseful than any news or entertainment I have read/watched in a LONG time;0)

“Exercise Your Brain”

Since: Jun 07

Planet Earth

#172314 Jul 16, 2013
saidI wrote:
<quoted text>
Sorry heard it on the "mainstream media" about two weeks ago. I believe the news came from USA. I'm not much of a researcher :(
S'OK! Bob gave me a link, nothing wrong with mainstream media...if you're careful;0)

I see it has worked for two men, so far. But what a fascinating note of hope! Thank you for starting the ball rolling.

“I see quantum effects”

Since: Jan 11

In the macro world.

#172316 Jul 16, 2013
T-Town Clown wrote:
<quoted text>not at all its a christian church... have you ever attended a church???
Oh GOD yes.

What a total waste of hundreds of Sunday mornings.
Joe Fortuna

Eureka, CA

#172317 Jul 16, 2013
Richardfs wrote:
<quoted text>
If your god is real, made all and benevolent why did he make childhood cancer?
Some cancer are caused by a virus which has as much right to live as any other creature. You live off of the deaths of what ever you eat. I see no difference.

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