Atheism requires as much faith as religion?

Atheism requires as much faith as religion? bearvspuma : The only problem with this rationalization is that ita s assuming all athiests are so because theya re intelligent in the ways of science and reasoning and all people that believe in a form of god are unintelligent. Full Story

Since: Mar 11

Louisville, KY

#172281 Jul 16, 2013
Are all the old vets terrified to say what church they attend like you? Or is your cowardice your's and your's alone pussyassbitch?
T-Town Clown wrote:
<quoted text>We old vets deserve respect from these rookies! but do we get it? Hell No... most of them have been banned 3 or 4 times or more! Yet you and I hang in like rusty nails...

Since: Mar 11

Louisville, KY

#172282 Jul 16, 2013
Nope that would be unacceptable because Jesus had intelligent and even wealthy followers according to the myth. Any reasonably intelligent person would realize the critical importance of documenting and preserving the words and deeds of such a man immediately knowing full well vital details and words would be lost and forgotten.
Roman Apologist wrote:
<quoted text>I was under the impression that your comments were directed at me.

Givemeliberty wrote, "Again why was it that "Paul" who never met Jesus outside of dreams and visions/hallucinations was the first to write about him?"

Would you consider the following as a plausible explanation?

Paul was the first to write, because Paul was a member of the Sanhedrin. Members of the Jewish Sanhedrin were very well educated. The men that Jesus chose as His disciples were (with the exception of Matthew) working class men. In that culture,(a predominantly oral culture) it's not unreasonable to infer or conclude that a better educated man would be the first to write everything down.

Isn't that a reasonable alternative to consider?

Since: Mar 11

Louisville, KY

#172283 Jul 16, 2013
Did Paul meet Jesus in the flesh? No.
Was all of Paul's interactions with Jesus in the form of visions and dreams? Yes.

You can belch that they were divine visions and dreams if you want to humiliate yourself as this is an apologetic opinion but my fact stands.

If you are already aware of something stop wasting time asking me to provide information on it. Now can we finally please move along?

Why is the first documented words about Jesus penned by a man who never even met him?
Roman Apologist wrote:
<quoted text>Please don't be so hasty in your thought process. I asked YOU to tell me where exactly in the NT Paul claimed that his account of seeing Jesus is only a dream or vision. I know the story of the Damascus Road incident. I'm asking you to provide evidence that Paul claimed that it was ONLY a VISION or DREAM.

Insulting remarks don't move the dialogue forward very well do they?

“Quantum Junctn: Use Both Lanes”

Since: Dec 06

Tulsa, Oklahoma USofA

#172284 Jul 16, 2013
Givemeliberty wrote:
Nope that would be unacceptable because Jesus had intelligent and even wealthy followers according to the myth. Any reasonably intelligent person would realize the critical importance of documenting and preserving the words and deeds of such a man immediately knowing full well vital details and words would be lost and forgotten.
<quoted text>
It is **much** worse than even that: if Jewsus was, in fact, a god?

He would have foreseen the present difficulties, and took **godly** steps to preserve his messages for the future generations.

That Jewsus himself **never** wrote even one verse?

Is more than sufficient proof that he was **not** a god of any kind.

Since: Mar 11

Louisville, KY

#172285 Jul 16, 2013
Richard is great as is Dr. Robert Price. They are two scholars who have factually laid out the case fact by fact point by point that there really is no proof for a historical Jesus.

I have yet to see one person scholar or otherwise take on their argument except using logical fallacies.
Bob of Quantum-Faith wrote:
<quoted text>My mistake-- it wasn't Bart, it was Dr. Richard Carrier. I've not heard your man, but I'll look for him.

The video I saw was here: " http://youtu.be/mwUZOZN-9dc" ; poor audio, but worth your hour to listen.

He's a real historian, using real historian's methodology.

Since: Mar 11

Louisville, KY

#172286 Jul 16, 2013
Exactly it was the OB1 style ghost of Jesus. Lol!
Bob of Quantum-Faith wrote:
<quoted text>Paul freely admits that he was the only person "there". He also admits that the "person" he saw was more like a spirit, than a man.

This reinforces the fact that Paul only writes about jesus as if he were pure spirit-- pure "angelic" or "heavenly" and never about jesus-the-man.

That fact, and the fact that Paul's stuff is the oldest verifiable NT writings, reinforces the notion that the Jesus-myth began as a celestial, non-corpreal being.

And only later, did the stories change to make him into a man.

“Quantum Junctn: Use Both Lanes”

Since: Dec 06

Tulsa, Oklahoma USofA

#172287 Jul 16, 2013
Givemeliberty wrote:
Why is the first documented words about Jesus penned by a man who never even met him?
<quoted text>
Because the earliest Jesus-myths were about a being who was believed to be 100% celestial/spirit/angelic/heave nly.

**Never** of a man-god or even worse, of a human.

Only much-much later was the myth of "jesus-as-man" introduced into the stories.

“Quantum Junctn: Use Both Lanes”

Since: Dec 06

Tulsa, Oklahoma USofA

#172288 Jul 16, 2013
Givemeliberty wrote:
Richard is great as is Dr. Robert Price. They are two scholars who have factually laid out the case fact by fact point by point that there really is no proof for a historical Jesus.
I have yet to see one person scholar or otherwise take on their argument except using logical fallacies.
<quoted text>
Coming from a Genuine Christian™ background myself?

The **most** compelling argument Dr Carrier presents in his speech, was that the oldest non-fraud NT stuff, is from Paul.

I already knew that Paul always wrote of Jewsus as a spiritual being, never as a human/corpreal being.

Back in the day, I was told this was because Paul never met the human Jewsus, and silly me-- I accepted this excuse.

But it's odd, that the **oldest** writings are of a pure-celestial Jewsus never speak of the Jewsus-as-man.

Quite telling, really-- there never was a man, "jesus", in the historical sense.

“Quantum Junctn: Use Both Lanes”

Since: Dec 06

Tulsa, Oklahoma USofA

#172289 Jul 16, 2013
Givemeliberty wrote:
Exactly it was the OB1 style ghost of Jesus. Lol!
<quoted text>
Yep.

Paul was a pure Charlatan, exactly like Joseph Smith was, with his magical "celestial plates".

Or else, Paul had access to some pretty strong hallucinogens...

... remember, back in those days? Being high was considered a valid way to "communicate" with "supernatural beings"....!

LMAO!

“There is no god!”

Since: Jun 12

Södertälje, Sweden

#172290 Jul 16, 2013
T-Town Clown wrote:
<quoted text>waiting for science atheist and other knuckle-draggers to disprove Jesus, if he don't exist prove it...
waiting + grinning
noted for no evidence for the existence of god and jesus

“There is no god!”

Since: Jun 12

Södertälje, Sweden

#172291 Jul 16, 2013
T-Town Clown wrote:
<quoted text>thank GOD for science! or Mikko would never see his tiny package
it's you who is talking about you tiny thing all the time

Since: Mar 11

Melbourne, Australia

#172292 Jul 16, 2013
albtraum wrote:
<quoted text>
That would be fantastic! Got a link?
Sorry heard it on the "mainstream media" about two weeks ago. I believe the news came from USA. I'm not much of a researcher :(

Since: Mar 11

Louisville, KY

#172294 Jul 16, 2013
Exactly and it has been supposed that the man Jesus was invented to attract more Gentiles who were very fond of the whole son of god who dies for us and then returns.

When you look at the population of the region this does make sense.
Bob of Quantum-Faith wrote:
<quoted text>Because the earliest Jesus-myths were about a being who was believed to be 100% celestial/spirit/angelic/heave nly.

**Never** of a man-god or even worse, of a human.

Only much-much later was the myth of "jesus-as-man" introduced into the stories.

Since: Mar 11

Louisville, KY

#172295 Jul 16, 2013
Yes Dr. Carrier and Dr. Price give fantastic examples of this. The miraculous son of god in that region was popularized by Alexander the Great who was believed to be the offspring of god. Even Julius Caesar was said to have divine origins and performed miracles as a child.

So making up this son of god walking around was very common in those days.
Bob of Quantum-Faith wrote:
<quoted text>Coming from a Genuine Christian™ background myself?

The **most** compelling argument Dr Carrier presents in his speech, was that the oldest non-fraud NT stuff, is from Paul.

I already knew that Paul always wrote of Jewsus as a spiritual being, never as a human/corpreal being.

Back in the day, I was told this was because Paul never met the human Jewsus, and silly me-- I accepted this excuse.

But it's odd, that the **oldest** writings are of a pure-celestial Jewsus never speak of the Jewsus-as-man.

Quite telling, really-- there never was a man, "jesus", in the historical sense.

Since: Mar 11

Louisville, KY

#172296 Jul 16, 2013
This is true and hallucinations were not understood at the time and just must have been from god! There's just no other answer because they didn't have Thorazine trees back then lmfao!

:))
Bob of Quantum-Faith wrote:
<quoted text>Yep.

Paul was a pure Charlatan, exactly like Joseph Smith was, with his magical "celestial plates".

Or else, Paul had access to some pretty strong hallucinogens...

... remember, back in those days? Being high was considered a valid way to "communicate" with "supernatural beings"....!

LMAO!

Since: Mar 11

Louisville, KY

#172297 Jul 16, 2013
Perhaps what you saw was a piece on how bone marrow is thought to be the silver bullet when it comes to Aids. Bone marrow treatments have given HIV patients some amazing results to be sure.
saidI wrote:
<quoted text>Sorry heard it on the "mainstream media" about two weeks ago. I believe the news came from USA. I'm not much of a researcher :(

“a.k.a. GhostWriter2U”

Since: Jul 13

Location hidden

#172298 Jul 16, 2013
Givemeliberty wrote:
Nope that would be unacceptable because Jesus had intelligent and even wealthy followers according to the myth. Any reasonably intelligent person would realize the critical importance of documenting and preserving the words and deeds of such a man immediately knowing full well vital details and words would be lost and forgotten.
<quoted text>
By modern Western standards, you would have a valid argument IF your comparison was between two similar modern Western cultures. But therein is the point of contention. My disagreement is based on the concept of your ethnocentrism. What I'm suggesting is that you are failing to recognize the difference in writing styles in our own modern time, and also in cultural styles. The ancient Hebrew culture was predominantly an oral culture. You're assuming that well educated articulate people would write this material down right on the spot, and that this literary skill would have been common to people in that culture. This is simply not true. So that's why I believe you're making an ethnocentric assumption based upon our own modern Western literary culture, and comparing it to an Middle Eastern orally dominated culture.

Consider the following:

1) Ancient cultures in the Mediterranean region were predominantly oral cultures. They passed on information from generation to generation by word of mouth. They did this through creeds. Creeds were almost poetic. They had a specific flow to them. Words were arranged in a format that was easy to remember. This information was memorized word for word, verbatim. This was the common method of communicating.

2) Yes, Hebrews could read and write. In fact, the percentage of Hebrew males that could read and write was higher than that of pagan nations in the Greco-Roman world. But that was still a very low number in contrast to the rest of the population.

3) There was no print based culture at that time. The printing press was still over a thousand years into the future. Papyrus was hand-made. Writing was a very slow, tedious, laborious process.

So here we have 3 points of consideration as to why there was a lack of writing from that period. I have more points that I can add if you're open to considering them.

“Incorrupta fides, nudaque veri”

Since: May 07

Vincit qui se vincit

#172299 Jul 16, 2013
Bob of Quantum-Faith wrote:
<quoted text>
I've never even had a warning message from the mods...
... go figure.
It's not hard to communicate within the rules, to avoid the ban-hammer.
A task that 90% of the fundie-god-botherers seem unable to grasp...
I've only received a couple warnings in my time and one of them was for no reason at all, I guess I used one of their filtered words? lol

“a.k.a. GhostWriter2U”

Since: Jul 13

Location hidden

#172300 Jul 16, 2013
Givemeliberty wrote:
Did Paul meet Jesus in the flesh? No.
Was all of Paul's interactions with Jesus in the form of visions and dreams? Yes.
How do you come to that conclusion? You're making claims without any supporting evidence for me to consider. You're asserting that it was visions and dreams but not supplying me with any reference point to support that.
Givemeliberty wrote:
You can belch that they were divine visions and dreams if you want to humiliate yourself as this is an apologetic opinion but my fact stands.
Your "fact" stands? On what authority? That's why I'm asking. I don't want to just offer an opinion. I want to offer a logical, plausible, coherent argument. Telling me that your fact stands without a supporting reference is a very bold maneuver.
Givemeliberty wrote:
If you are already aware of something stop wasting time asking me to provide information on it. Now can we finally please move along?
No we cannot just move along. You made an assertion that what Paul saw was a vision or a dream; yet it's not in the Damascus road account in the book of Acts. Paul doesn't claim it was a vision or dream. You're making a claim that Paul's Damascus Road event was that, and you're asserting that Paul said so himself. I'm simply asking where in the NT you found that, because I'm physically holding an NLT Bible and I've read and re-read the three accounts in the Book of Acts, and none of them claim that Paul claimed they were mere visions or dreams. I need a reference point or source to investigate. Surely that's not such an unreasonable request, especially when you have accused theists of cowering and not answering your questions.
Givemeliberty wrote:
Why is the first documented words about Jesus penned by a man who never even met him?
I already answered that in my previous posting.

“Quantum Junctn: Use Both Lanes”

Since: Dec 06

Tulsa, Oklahoma USofA

#172301 Jul 16, 2013
Givemeliberty wrote:
Exactly and it has been supposed that the man Jesus was invented to attract more Gentiles who were very fond of the whole son of god who dies for us and then returns.
When you look at the population of the region this does make sense.
<quoted text>
What is really amusing? Is that if you make a study of the evolution of religion during those beginning days?

You'll find that **all** religions in the region had evolved into a "man/god sacrifice/rebirth/dies-for-peo ple/immortality/etc"

They are so similar, they could have been written by the same people-- only the unimportant details are specific to the various people who's culture it sprang up in.

Without Constantine's force-conversion to his newly-minted "christianity", christianity would have died off like all the other cults did.

...*sigh*

And Earth would have skipped the Dark Ages... and?

We'd have colonies on the moons of Jupiter by **now**....!

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