Atheism requires as much faith as rel...

Atheism requires as much faith as religion?

There are 258042 comments on the Webbunny tumblelog story from Jul 18, 2009, titled Atheism requires as much faith as religion?. In it, Webbunny tumblelog reports that:

Atheism requires as much faith as religion? bearvspuma : The only problem with this rationalization is that ita s assuming all athiests are so because theya re intelligent in the ways of science and reasoning and all people that believe in a form of god are unintelligent.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at Webbunny tumblelog.

“YO BOO”

Since: Sep 07

land of BOO

#172343 Jul 16, 2013
Thinking wrote:
You also would have to take a cut in the standard of living.
<quoted text>
how do you chumps pay for a gallion of gas? plus them bad teeth yall have... LOL

thinking has rotten teeth or should I say tooth
Thinking

Lymington, UK

#172344 Jul 16, 2013
Dinosaur teeth found in the US represent great evidence for Evolution.

Just don't f**k them, you sad necrophiliac.
T-Town Clown wrote:
<quoted text>We have better teeth.
susanblange

Norfolk, VA

#172345 Jul 16, 2013
Aerobatty wrote:
<quoted text>
It's just plain silly to be afraid of the inevitable.
I have some concern as to HOW I die.
As well as my quality of life until then.
But no. I'm not at all afraid to die.
Nor am I afraid to live.
I had a vision of my own death, and there is an afterlife, so I am not afraid of death. But I'm not looking forward to being killed. I do still fear God though. "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, a good understanding have all those who keep his commandments". I know from experience that if I do something I shouldn't God will get me good.

“YO BOO”

Since: Sep 07

land of BOO

#172346 Jul 16, 2013
Im tired of you chumps going over and over and over the same old crap! Im riding off with total victory !!!!!!!!!!

Clownie 100
atheist 0

Since: Mar 11

Henderson, KY

#172347 Jul 16, 2013
All your tough talk but terrified to say what church you go to.

I accept your surrender you pussyassbitch.
T-Town Clown wrote:
<quoted text>how do you chumps pay for a gallion of gas? plus them bad teeth yall have... LOL

thinking has rotten teeth or should I say tooth

“a.k.a. GhostWriter2U”

Since: Jul 13

Location hidden

#172348 Jul 16, 2013
Givemeliberty wrote:
I flushed most of your repetitive apologetic blather.
Forgive me for asking, but why dismiss it? I see you attacking a specific portion of my argument, but not the entire argument. I'm just curious as to what was wrong with it that you feel the need to dismiss it out-of-hand without a logical evidential rebuttal.
Givemeliberty wrote:
No western standards have nothing to do with argument whatsoever. The period of time Jesus walked the region is very very well documented.
Yes first century writers did document events. But-

Just how many historical accounts from ancient Palestine do you claim have survived to the present day? What are your sources?

How much (by percentage) of any specific culture can we say was literate with any substantial historical accuracy?

How many cultures were predominantly literary and how many were predominantly oral tradition based cultures?

Have you factored in cultural expectations? If the accounts of what Jesus said are true, then we're looking at a culture that was waiting for His imminent second coming. If they were expecting the Christ to return, then can we expect that they would have written it down so soon after when oral tradition would suffice?

It's been 2,000 years since these accounts started circulating. Papyrus doesn't last forever. Even if they did start writing it down immediately as you seem to believe they were obligated to, what guarantee do we have that they survived? We know that the conquests of Rome, the barbarians, the Ottomans, weren't exactly peaceful.
How many written records have we lost due to natural or man-made disasters? Jerusalem was sacked in 70 A.D. by the Romans. Vesuvius erupted in 79 A.D. So there are two disasters right there that can account for "lost history."

I'm not asking you to answer all of these points I'm raising. I'm raising them to show that I think you're assuming too much without a whole lot of plausible evidence to support your claims.
Givemeliberty wrote:
I know you hate to admit that but guess what? The Jews, Mithra worshipers, Hellenistic people all regularly at the time documented vital information. People have trouble remembering word for word the Ten Commandments but you think they could accurately remember hundreds of thousands of words perfectly? Insanity and we see this clearly as all the variations of the same gospels that we find in ancient scrolls.
Again, you're thinking in modern terms. You're not considering the difference between the way we do things, and the way the ancient cultures did things. Yes the Hellenistic world had its share of brilliant thinkers and writers, but you're comparing the polytheistic pagan cultures with a strict monotheistic culture that was orally dominant. Jewish Rabbis were REQUIRED to memorize the entire Torah before being allowed to comment on any passage. That in itself is a remarkable accomplishment. Our own Western culture doesn't do that, and that's why you doubt that ancient cultures could. That's ethnocentrism.
Givemeliberty wrote:
Jesus according to the NT had rich and highly educated men with him including converted Jews who would have known the importance of documentation.
Why, in a predominantly oral culture, would you assume that somebody was obligated to write about him? What is your basis for making that assumption? That other cultures did? If I write a letter to my congressman, are you also obligated to write a letter to your congressman?
Givemeliberty wrote:
This is why apologetics fail miserably. Critical thinking.
If you give my above points fair consideration, I think you'll see I do think fairly critically. I don't want canned answers any more than you do.
Thinking

Lymington, UK

#172349 Jul 16, 2013
With money.
T-Town Clown wrote:
<quoted text>how do you chumps pay for a gallion of gas?
Joe Fortuna

Arcata, CA

#172350 Jul 16, 2013
albtraum wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes, that 7 X 70 is more than I could ever take. I go by the 'fool me once, shame on you....fool me twice shame on ME!' ;0)
Good for me too.
Thinking

Lymington, UK

#172351 Jul 16, 2013
Joe Fortuna wrote:
<quoted text>
Good for me too.
Joe Fortuna

Arcata, CA

#172352 Jul 16, 2013
Thinking wrote:
You can have my mother's cancer then.
Thank you.
<quoted text>
My mother, and sister had breast cancer, they beat it. I hope your mother gets the same results.
Joe Fortuna

Arcata, CA

#172353 Jul 16, 2013
Richardfs wrote:
<quoted text>
Tell that to the kids and their parents.
They should already know it. Knowing may not make it easier, but everything kills to surive. Do you think anyone worries about the animals that they eat? You may think thats a bad attitude but thats just how life works.
Joe Fortuna

Arcata, CA

#172354 Jul 16, 2013
Thinking wrote:
He also posts violently anti gay posts under his "goober hull" identity. Religitards often bulk up their numbers dishonestly.
<quoted text>
Goober I remember that guy, I can see them being the same.

“Quantum Junctn: Use Both Lanes”

Since: Dec 06

Tulsa, Oklahoma USofA

#172355 Jul 16, 2013
albtraum wrote:
<quoted text>
Thank you Bob! This is more exciting and suspenseful than any news or entertainment I have read/watched in a LONG time;0)
You are most welcome. I have actually met Ms Smith-- she's a pretty amazing human being.

She's also quite good at taking a very complex subject, HIV for example, and distilling it down into concepts an average person can understand.

“Quantum Junctn: Use Both Lanes”

Since: Dec 06

Tulsa, Oklahoma USofA

#172356 Jul 16, 2013
Aerobatty wrote:
<quoted text>
Oh GOD yes.
What a total waste of hundreds of Sunday mornings.
Same here-- 1/2 my life was wasted on that shyt.

“Quantum Junctn: Use Both Lanes”

Since: Dec 06

Tulsa, Oklahoma USofA

#172357 Jul 16, 2013
Joe Fortuna wrote:
<quoted text>
Number 42 was Jackie Robinsons number.:O)
Coincidence? I think not...

<LMAO>

“Quantum Junctn: Use Both Lanes”

Since: Dec 06

Tulsa, Oklahoma USofA

#172358 Jul 16, 2013
Givemeliberty wrote:
Certainly the sword forcing Christianity into society was key to it's current state.
<quoted text>
Yes... without the pogrom of Constantine's army, force-converting to christianity (or they were killed), the sad little cult would not be around today.

“a.k.a. GhostWriter2U”

Since: Jul 13

Location hidden

#172359 Jul 16, 2013
albtraum wrote:
<quoted text>
I give you points for sincerity and civility. That's the exception rather than the rule on these threads so Kudos to you! I can see you've done a lot of research and given these many points a lot of thought.
Don't get me wrong, a house of cards is still a house of cards and you have more than your fair share of 'considerations' to propose. It's understandable when discussing a long gone culture with scant clues.
Just following your and Bob's discussion, please carry on!
Thanks Albtraum! I appreciate the comment. Feel free to jump in any time. The more the merrier. Just don't take it personally if it takes me a while to answer. There's only so much time in a day, and we all have lives. Well, at least I hope we all do.:)

Since: Mar 11

Henderson, KY

#172360 Jul 16, 2013
Who else laughs at how he refuses to answer our questions but throws out several of his own?

Btw Jews had a very important oral and written history not oral only. Sorry :(
Roman Apologist wrote:
<quoted text>Forgive me for asking, but why dismiss it? I see you attacking a specific portion of my argument, but not the entire argument. I'm just curious as to what was wrong with it that you feel the need to dismiss it out-of-hand without a logical evidential rebuttal.

Givemeliberty wrote, "No western standards have nothing to do with argument whatsoever. The period of time Jesus walked the region is very very well documented."

Yes first century writers did document events. But-

Just how many historical accounts from ancient Palestine do you claim have survived to the present day? What are your sources?

How much (by percentage) of any specific culture can we say was literate with any substantial historical accuracy?

How many cultures were predominantly literary and how many were predominantly oral tradition based cultures?

Have you factored in cultural expectations? If the accounts of what Jesus said are true, then we're looking at a culture that was waiting for His imminent second coming. If they were expecting the Christ to return, then can we expect that they would have written it down so soon after when oral tradition would suffice?

It's been 2,000 years since these accounts started circulating. Papyrus doesn't last forever. Even if they did start writing it down immediately as you seem to believe they were obligated to, what guarantee do we have that they survived? We know that the conquests of Rome, the barbarians, the Ottomans, weren't exactly peaceful.
How many written records have we lost due to natural or man-made disasters? Jerusalem was sacked in 70 A.D. by the Romans. Vesuvius erupted in 79 A.D. So there are two disasters right there that can account for "lost history."

I'm not asking you to answer all of these points I'm raising. I'm raising them to show that I think you're assuming too much without a whole lot of plausible evidence to support your claims.

Givemeliberty wrote, "I know you hate to admit that but guess what? The Jews, Mithra worshipers, Hellenistic people all regularly at the time documented vital information. People have trouble remembering word for word the Ten Commandments but you think they could accurately remember hundreds of thousands of words perfectly? Insanity and we see this clearly as all the variations of the same gospels that we find in ancient scrolls."

Again, you're thinking in modern terms. You're not considering the difference between the way we do things, and the way the ancient cultures did things. Yes the Hellenistic world had its share of brilliant thinkers and writers, but you're comparing the polytheistic pagan cultures with a strict monotheistic culture that was orally dominant. Jewish Rabbis were REQUIRED to memorize the entire Torah before being allowed to comment on any passage. That in itself is a remarkable accomplishment. Our own Western culture doesn't do that, and that's why you doubt that ancient cultures could. That's ethnocentrism.

Givemeliberty wrote, "Jesus according to the NT had rich and highly educated men with him including converted Jews who would have known the importance of documentation."

Why, in a predominantly oral culture, would you assume that somebody was obligated to write about him? What is your basis for making that assumption? That other cultures did? If I write a letter to my congressman, are you also obligated to write a letter to your congressman?

Givemeliberty wrote, "This is why apologetics fail miserably. Critical thinking."

If you give my above points fair consideration, I think you'll see I do think fairly critically. I don't want canned answers any more than you do.

“Quantum Junctn: Use Both Lanes”

Since: Dec 06

Tulsa, Oklahoma USofA

#172361 Jul 16, 2013
Mikko wrote:
<quoted text>
I'll rather stay in Sweden (were more democratic than USA)
Yes-- yes you are.

More to the point? Sweden is far more secular than the USA, and has a much higher standard of living, a higher average salary per person, a much lower per-person crime rate too.

A much lower dead-baby rate as well (per 1000 births)-- cannot forget the number of infants who **die** here in the good old USA, due to the unfortunate circumstances of their births.

All in all? A much better place to live than here-- on average.

Personally? I blame your success on your mostly godless lifestyles.

<laughing>
blacklagoon

Brookline, MA

#172362 Jul 16, 2013
Roman Apologist wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes, all history that we haven't witnessed is hearsay if we're passing on the tradition. Here's an example for your consideration.
My great great grandfather fought in the 3 day Battle of Gettysburg during the American Civil War, and was wounded on the first day. He was a member of the 76th NY Infantry from Cortland County. I was told this by my mother. She was told this by her mother, and she was told by her mother, and she was told by her mother and father. What proof do I have in my possession? I have a copy of his pension from the War Department, and a digital copy of a young man in civil war attire, holding a derringer. Our family has preserved the stories he told his daughter (my great-grandmother) about the things he did and the things he witnessed. She passed that on to her daughter (my grandmother), who in turn passed it down to my mother, who in turn passed it down to me. It's been 150 years since the battle. I have an oral tradition that hasn't been exaggerated, I have a single piece of paper detailing a pension for a war injury, and a digital copy of a grainy black and white image of a young man in civil war attire. That's all I have. Now if I cross check, I can know that the 76th NY Infantry fought on the first day of the battle. There's one single stone monument that marks the position of the 76th NY Infantry on July 1st 1863. That's it. Nothing more to know in relation to my grandfather being at this historic event from 150 years ago. At best, my family history is circumstantial. It's hearsay. I never met my great-great-grandfather. Nobody ever wrote a book about him, yet he existed. Do you doubt anything I've told you about my great-great-grandfather?
In comparison, with Jesus, we have at least 2 hostile secular accounts from hostile sources, and we have 4 sources that were friendly (the gospels). None of them are contemporary, and they don't NEED to be. Nobody wrote down my great-great-grandfather's account of what it was like to lay wounded on the battlefield for 2 days before receiving any first-aid whatsoever, until about 10 years ago. It was always maintained in family stories that NEVER changed or exaggerated any detail.
My point? There's more written evidence for Jesus from 2,000 years ago, than there is for my great-great-grandfather from just 150 years ago. Of course you'll claim that my great-great-grandfather's existence is irrelevant to this conversation. Do you know why it's irrelevant? Because your eternal future isn't at stake or dependent upon the existence of my great-great-grandfather.
If you look at every argument that you reject for the existence of Jesus, despite the fact that we repeat the same information, your own emotional bias comes shining through like the sun. If we wanted to make this up to convince you, why would we keep repeating the same arguments? Wouldn't we make up new arguments? What possible motive could I have to get you to change your heart and mind? It's not like I'm going to make any money off my efforts. I'm not going to get extra credit in the after-life. I'm not looking for bragging rights. I'm not running for office. What can I possibly gain?
Believing in the existence of my great-great-grandfather doesn't require any internal change of heart. But believing in Jesus does, and there is the difference.
Your great grandfathers existence IS irrelevant to the conversation, and No my "eternal" future is NOT at stake, as there is absolutely No evidence that anyone, including you, has an "eternal" future. Stating your unsupported beliefs as factual is never a good idea.

Now with that out of the way. Reason and logic are two very important components in this conversation, you have exercised neither. The existence of your Grandfather vs. the existence of Jesus. Your grandfather fought in the civil war, fought at the battle of Gettysburg, was a member of the 76th NY infantry. more on my next post, your's was very long.

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