Atheism requires as much faith as religion?

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Atheism requires as much faith as religion? bearvspuma : The only problem with this rationalization is that ita s assuming all athiests are so because theya re intelligent in the ways of science and reasoning and all people that believe in a form of god are unintelligent.
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spudgun

Stoke-on-trent, UK

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#171371
Jul 9, 2013
 
susanblange wrote:
<quoted text>You obviously don't know what the Torah is about. Have you ever read it? It is a history of God, the world and Israel and was revealed to Moses and the prophets by the living God....
This is a joke right? No one today believes in stoning people to death for minor crimes, slavery, animal sacrifice or any other of these barbaric and primitive laws.
spudgun

Stoke-on-trent, UK

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#171372
Jul 9, 2013
 
susanblange wrote:
<quoted text>.. The NT is conjecture and we cannot rely on it.
At least we agree with this much!

“I started out with nothing”

Since: Nov 10

and still got most of it left

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#171373
Jul 9, 2013
 
Givemeliberty wrote:
There is no historical proof that Jesus even existed let alone performed these so called miracles. None whatsoever and the gospels were written decades after these men would have died by Ronan's who didn't even speak their language.
They were oral stories changed over decades and finally documented. Even then the gospels have been edited numerous times over the years.
<quoted text>
There is evidence in the Roman archives, military records and tax records that he did not exist as depicted in the babble.

Military records – Mary was raped by a roman soldier named “Tiberius Julius Abdes Pantera” of Sidonm he was reprimand and posted from Judea to Germany following the offence, his grave stone still exists

Tax records show Mary bore a son from the rape, named Judas who grew to be a terrorist with two aliases, Judas of the Sicari and Judas the Galilean.

He was captured with the help of a guy named Saulus (later to become known as St Paul)

Back to military records, He was put to the cross for his crimes, however his terrorist oppo’s bribed the guard and he was released, the guard was punished. Judas was seen out and about after he was “supposed” to have been crucified. He died a few weeks later of probable blood poisoning caused by the nails.

His terrorist band was named of the fourth philosophy and took the name as their posthumous figure head.

The Roman archives for the time of Emperor Titus Flavius describe how Titus in collusion with Josephus (of some fame) plotted to discredit the Hebrew Sicari terrorists. By messing with the posthumous leaders name Judas of the Sicari became Judas Iscariot, the man who betrayed himself.

It was not until many years later that when the records were being translated to greek some wiseass thought two judas’s makes a bad story, we’ll give one the good greek name of jesus.

See the books of
Sara Reinke - Pantera
Robert Eisenman – James, the brother of Christ,
Hyam Maccobys – The Mythmaker,
Danial Underbank – Judas the Galilean: the flesh and blood Jesus
Paul Cresswell – Jesus the Terrorist

“I started out with nothing”

Since: Nov 10

and still got most of it left

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#171374
Jul 9, 2013
 
Bongo wrote:
<quoted text> No Babe, sushi and fresh fruit
Whatever turns you on

“I started out with nothing”

Since: Nov 10

and still got most of it left

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#171375
Jul 9, 2013
 
susanblange wrote:
<quoted text>You obviously don't know what the Torah is about. Have you ever read it? It is a history of God, the world and Israel and was revealed to Moses and the prophets by the living God. The law was not given to other people except through Israel. A lot of the laws only apply to the children of Israel and it's ludicrous to believe it was stolen from other people who the living God did not call.
Nope, it is a bunch of tales told by bronze age goat herders and run away slaves who knew no better.

However you are welcome to believe what you like so long as you acknowledge it is belief and not fact.

“I started out with nothing”

Since: Nov 10

and still got most of it left

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#171376
Jul 9, 2013
 
susanblange wrote:
<quoted text>Do you really believe the gospels were written by eyewitnesses? There was no Matthew, Mark, Luke and John-these names were made up to conform to prophecy. There is also no contemporaneous record of Jesus' life and the NT was written hundreds of years after Jesus died. The NT is conjecture and we cannot rely on it.
And the same can be said for the OT which of course means the Torah from which the OT was (selectively) copied

“a.k.a. GhostWriter2U”

Since: Jul 13

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#171377
Jul 9, 2013
 

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spudgun wrote:
No one knows who wrote the gospels, where they were written and the sources used. They are likely written decades after Paul's letters by various greek speaking christians.
All the gospels contadict each other and very inconsistent with Paul's spiritual Jesus.
In other words the >evidence< supporting Christianity is very weak. Therefore no honest or rational person can be a Christian.
The authorship of the gospels has always been in dispute in the modern era, but we have no evidence of a dispute from the first three centuries of Christianity. This is most likely when any dispute would have surfaced, and to date, there's no record of such a dispute.

The early church historian Eusebius records that Mark's gospel was written first, and was essentially the eye-witness account of Peter, who was a disciple of Jesus. Eusebius was the very first historian of the early Christian church and had to assemble his extensive history from early letters, gospels, and written quotations. It's interesting to note a few items for your consideration before you form your rebuttal.

Peter was executed in Rome right around 66-67 A.D. during the Neronian Persecutions. This is accepted as true by both secular and Christian scholars as historically accurate.

Therefore, if Mark really was the scribe of Peter, then it's only logical to conclude that Mark started writing before the death of Peter. The language in Mark's gospel seems to protect Peter's feelings, which in turn suggests that Mark wrote while Peter was still alive.

Mark also accompanied Paul to Rome, and we know this from Paul's letters. Therefore, Mark was likely writing to a Greco-Roman audience and would have written in Greek which the universal language of the time. I mention this, because in Mark's account of Jesus dying on the cross, Jesus says "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" and the curious thing about it is that Mark wrote it in Aramaic, which is the language that Palestinian Jews spoke then. If Mark was writing to a Greco-Roman audience, then why would he write in Aramaic, far removed from the place where Aramaic was the primary language? He wouldn't have written it to add detail to the story for literary creativity. That kind of writing hadn't developed yet. If Mark wrote his gospel in Greek, but certain phrases in Aramaic, then it's logical to say he was writing down somebody's memories. They may not have been his own memories, but that raises a question also. If not his memories, then who's memories? If he was inventing it, it would have been written in Greek or Latin but it wasn't.

So here we have good reason to accept that at least one gospel is early and is likely based on eye-witness testimony. Now this is only one small piece of evidence. I could bring a lot more to the conversation, but it would be counter-productive to overwhelm you all at once.

Since: Sep 08

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#171378
Jul 9, 2013
 
Aura Mytha wrote:
<quoted text> That's the problem dude, there's no evidence of him.
It's all second third hand 30-50+ years after the fact.
No direct testimony of anyone, seems more a fabrication than a real person. But I do think he represents the suffering of people.
The only physical evidence is so shrouded in controversy, even if it is real it's not going to prove much. But it's authenticity is weak at best.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v =lE4qzFDCyCEXX
Paul was 20 years after. Not that long.

Xcntirk and I had discussions about that. He ranted and raved about 50-70 years later for Paul. Then I apprised him of the fact that AD started with the birth, not the crucifixion. After months of his BS, he disappeared a day or two after that.

Paul is thought to have died between 62-68 AD, under the rule of Nero, who died in 68 AD. Subtract 30 odd years from that. He started writing before he died.

“ The Lord of delirious minds.”

Since: Dec 10

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#171379
Jul 9, 2013
 
ChristineM wrote:
<quoted text>
There is evidence in the Roman archives, military records and tax records that he did not exist as depicted in the babble.
Military records – Mary was raped by a roman soldier named “Tiberius Julius Abdes Pantera” of Sidonm he was reprimand and posted from Judea to Germany following the offence, his grave stone still exists
Tax records show Mary bore a son from the rape, named Judas who grew to be a terrorist with two aliases, Judas of the Sicari and Judas the Galilean.
He was captured with the help of a guy named Saulus (later to become known as St Paul)
Back to military records, He was put to the cross for his crimes, however his terrorist oppo’s bribed the guard and he was released, the guard was punished. Judas was seen out and about after he was “supposed” to have been crucified. He died a few weeks later of probable blood poisoning caused by the nails.
His terrorist band was named of the fourth philosophy and took the name as their posthumous figure head.
The Roman archives for the time of Emperor Titus Flavius describe how Titus in collusion with Josephus (of some fame) plotted to discredit the Hebrew Sicari terrorists. By messing with the posthumous leaders name Judas of the Sicari became Judas Iscariot, the man who betrayed himself.
It was not until many years later that when the records were being translated to greek some wiseass thought two judas’s makes a bad story, we’ll give one the good greek name of jesus.
See the books of
Sara Reinke - Pantera
Robert Eisenman – James, the brother of Christ,
Hyam Maccobys – The Mythmaker,
Danial Underbank – Judas the Galilean: the flesh and blood Jesus
Paul Cresswell – Jesus the Terrorist
LOL this stuff is a conspiracy made out of a conspiracy.
Kind of like 911 research or someshit. Jebus research team no. 6 .

Since: Mar 11

Louisville, KY

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#171380
Jul 9, 2013
 
You mean two questions as that is a question. But sure go right ahead. I can only provide tested facts, your accepting the truth is another matter entirely.
Roman Apologist wrote:
<quoted text>
May I ask you a question?

“a.k.a. GhostWriter2U”

Since: Jul 13

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#171381
Jul 9, 2013
 

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susanblange wrote:
<quoted text>Do you really believe the gospels were written by eyewitnesses? There was no Matthew, Mark, Luke and John-these names were made up to conform to prophecy. There is also no contemporaneous record of Jesus' life and the NT was written hundreds of years after Jesus died. The NT is conjecture and we cannot rely on it.
Yes I do believe they are eye-witness accounts. Knowledge of eye-witness statements in both history and court proceedings is very helpful in determining this.

The Gospels were all written early. There is a mountain of evidence to support this claim. I understand that not everyone will accept individual portions of evidence as conclusive, but when taken as a whole, there is a lot of evidence to more than adequately support this assertion.

Since: Mar 11

Louisville, KY

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#171382
Jul 9, 2013
 
Historical proof that Paul even existed? And no the bible doesn't count.
Dave Nelson wrote:
<quoted text>
Paul was 20 years after. Not that long.
Xcntirk and I had discussions about that. He ranted and raved about 50-70 years later for Paul. Then I apprised him of the fact that AD started with the birth, not the crucifixion. After months of his BS, he disappeared a day or two after that.
Paul is thought to have died between 62-68 AD, under the rule of Nero, who died in 68 AD. Subtract 30 odd years from that. He started writing before he died.

“ The Lord of delirious minds.”

Since: Dec 10

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#171383
Jul 9, 2013
 
Dave Nelson wrote:
<quoted text>
Paul was 20 years after. Not that long.
Xcntirk and I had discussions about that. He ranted and raved about 50-70 years later for Paul. Then I apprised him of the fact that AD started with the birth, not the crucifixion. After months of his BS, he disappeared a day or two after that.
Paul is thought to have died between 62-68 AD, under the rule of Nero, who died in 68 AD. Subtract 30 odd years from that. He started writing before he died.
Hog wash , he even admits he never actually saw him, it's complete bs. Now how do you tell all about a person you never even saw, but had a vision of even 20 years after they dead? Make shit up that's how. They got their made up shit standardized in 325 under Constantine and made a set belief system.
There may have been a few different people that suffered the crucifixion but their no real evidence there was a Jesus.

Since: Mar 11

Louisville, KY

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#171384
Jul 9, 2013
 
It was stolen, often word for word from surrounding people of the region.

susanblange wrote:
<quoted text>You obviously don't know what the Torah is about. Have you ever read it? It is a history of God, the world and Israel and was revealed to Moses and the prophets by the living God. The law was not given to other people except through Israel. A lot of the laws only apply to the children of Israel and it's ludicrous to believe it was stolen from other people who the living God did not call.

Since: Mar 11

Louisville, KY

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#171385
Jul 9, 2013
 
I have heard of the Jesus son of Pantera account that has a wealth of historical proof unlike this so called Jesus of the bible which has none whatsoever.
ChristineM wrote:
<quoted text>
There is evidence in the Roman archives, military records and tax records that he did not exist as depicted in the babble.
Military records – Mary was raped by a roman soldier named “Tiberius Julius Abdes Pantera” of Sidonm he was reprimand and posted from Judea to Germany following the offence, his grave stone still exists
Tax records show Mary bore a son from the rape, named Judas who grew to be a terrorist with two aliases, Judas of the Sicari and Judas the Galilean.
He was captured with the help of a guy named Saulus (later to become known as St Paul)
Back to military records, He was put to the cross for his crimes, however his terrorist oppo’s bribed the guard and he was released, the guard was punished. Judas was seen out and about after he was “supposed” to have been crucified. He died a few weeks later of probable blood poisoning caused by the nails.
His terrorist band was named of the fourth philosophy and took the name as their posthumous figure head.
The Roman archives for the time of Emperor Titus Flavius describe how Titus in collusion with Josephus (of some fame) plotted to discredit the Hebrew Sicari terrorists. By messing with the posthumous leaders name Judas of the Sicari became Judas Iscariot, the man who betrayed himself.
It was not until many years later that when the records were being translated to greek some wiseass thought two judas’s makes a bad story, we’ll give one the good greek name of jesus.
See the books of
Sara Reinke - Pantera
Robert Eisenman – James, the brother of Christ,
Hyam Maccobys – The Mythmaker,
Danial Underbank – Judas the Galilean: the flesh and blood Jesus
Paul Cresswell – Jesus the Terrorist

Since: Mar 11

Louisville, KY

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#171386
Jul 9, 2013
 
Oh a wealth of information, Christian writings started with the works of the so called Paul which came decades later and he never met the man. Decades after the Paul letters we finally get Mark written as a prequel. Matthew, Luke and John followed and they all contradict each other. Several books in the NT today are noted forgeries written long after the others.

When you read the gospels and see all of these so called miracles, most stolen btw word for word from the local Hellenistic religions mind you, yet nobody thought at the time to document these miracles? They waited decades later when the supposed eye witnesses were dead or senile?

We have secular historical accounts of Jesus Ben Strada the so called evil Egyptian miracle worker who was caught and crucified, but not a word of this Jesus of Nazareth who raised the dead and went marching back from the dead with an army or Jewish Zombies? Jesus Ben Strada with his parlor tricks gets noticed and documented quickly, but the son of God walking on water and raising the dead doesn't get a single word written about him until decades later?

Not even his own supposed followers couldn't find the time to put pen to paper for decades? none of them? Not one?

You're telling me this guy cures the blind, heals the sick and raises the dead and nobody thought that was important enough to even write about?

People at that time documented recipes and boring information like water levels of the river, who was sleeping with who... But this guy marching into the city with hundreds of formerly dead Jews doesn't merit a word?
Roman Apologist wrote:
<quoted text>
Where is your evidence to support this claim?

“a.k.a. GhostWriter2U”

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#171387
Jul 9, 2013
 

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Givemeliberty wrote:
You mean two questions as that is a question. But sure go right ahead. I can only provide tested facts, your accepting the truth is another matter entirely.
<quoted text>
I can only provide authenticated history. Your accepting the authenticity is another matter entirely. LOL

I wrote the second question as an after-thought. Sorry if I confused you.

My question is, what is your profession?

“YO BOO”

Since: Sep 07

land of BOO

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#171388
Jul 9, 2013
 

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ChristineM wrote:
<quoted text>
Whatever turns you on
Do you mean that? cause I can get kinky dinky baby...

Since: Sep 08

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#171389
Jul 9, 2013
 

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Aura Mytha wrote:
<quoted text> Hog wash , he even admits he never actually saw him, it's complete bs. Now how do you tell all about a person you never even saw, but had a vision of even 20 years after they dead? Make shit up that's how. They got their made up shit standardized in 325 under Constantine and made a set belief system.
There may have been a few different people that suffered the crucifixion but their no real evidence there was a Jesus.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coptic_Orthodox_...

Note the dates preceding Constantine.

You had various churches that later met and came up with doctrines.

It is amusing how atheists can believe a vast conspiracy by disparate groups of persecuted peoples from different locales with different accounts and beliefs could have been perpetrated on the world solely through Rome some 300 years later.

Totally amazingly amusing. They love good conspiracies.
Thinking

York, UK

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#171390
Jul 9, 2013
 
DK Clunt only got sex when his girlfriend died.
ChristineM wrote:
<quoted text>
Don’t need tweezers to laugh at the DK clown
And to think, hescrews his sister with that, no wonder she laughs at him

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