Atheism requires as much faith as rel...

Atheism requires as much faith as religion?

There are 258476 comments on the Webbunny tumblelog story from Jul 18, 2009, titled Atheism requires as much faith as religion?. In it, Webbunny tumblelog reports that:

Atheism requires as much faith as religion? bearvspuma : The only problem with this rationalization is that ita s assuming all athiests are so because theya re intelligent in the ways of science and reasoning and all people that believe in a form of god are unintelligent.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at Webbunny tumblelog.

Favorite Adversary

Brooklyn, NY

#169769 Jun 23, 2013
KittenKoder wrote:
<quoted text>
One simple example, ancient Egyptian mythology is much older than your bibles are, and there are two stories in there that when combined form your entire "Jesus" myth. Imhotep and Horus.
I'm sorry Kitten, but this is false. Jesus as a myth is a lazy argument of desperation on the part of those who lack historical knowledge. I know my assertion will not change your mind, and that's your right. The parallel "Jesus as myth" religions were debunked years and years ago, and have only recently resurfaced within the last few years to influence a very ignorant audience that is unfamiliar with these ludicrous claims.

The skeptical scholars of the Jesus debate all acknowledge he lived and was executed by the Romans. Gerd Ludemann and Bart Ehrman have both been very consistent in their research even though neither believes in the deity of Jesus. They have both characterized the entire "Jesus as myth" as being a very poor and lazy intellectual argument.

My question to you is this:

In both Matthew and Mark, Jesus is recorded as saying "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" as he was dying on the cross. This is a very unheroic thing to say for a leader of a religious movement. All the other religions like Islam or Buddhism have their founders dying peacefully or with heroic words, and not executed as traitors by an evil oppressive occupying government.

If you were going to start a movement or help it along, would you promote your founder in such a negative light as dying such a shameful death and then crying out in such a manner?

I wouldn't. In the context of the society at that time or at any time within 400 years of the crucifixion either way, it wouldn't make sense to write propaganda this way to promote a religion. It would fail.

“ad victoriam”

Since: Dec 10

arte et marte

#169770 Jun 23, 2013
Favorite Adversary wrote:
<quoted text>
I'm sorry Kitten, but this is false. Jesus as a myth is a lazy argument of desperation on the part of those who lack historical knowledge. I know my assertion will not change your mind, and that's your right. The parallel "Jesus as myth" religions were debunked years and years ago, and have only recently resurfaced within the last few years to influence a very ignorant audience that is unfamiliar with these ludicrous claims.
The skeptical scholars of the Jesus debate all acknowledge he lived and was executed by the Romans. Gerd Ludemann and Bart Ehrman have both been very consistent in their research even though neither believes in the deity of Jesus. They have both characterized the entire "Jesus as myth" as being a very poor and lazy intellectual argument.
My question to you is this:
In both Matthew and Mark, Jesus is recorded as saying "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" as he was dying on the cross. This is a very unheroic thing to say for a leader of a religious movement. All the other religions like Islam or Buddhism have their founders dying peacefully or with heroic words, and not executed as traitors by an evil oppressive occupying government.
If you were going to start a movement or help it along, would you promote your founder in such a negative light as dying such a shameful death and then crying out in such a manner?
I wouldn't. In the context of the society at that time or at any time within 400 years of the crucifixion either way, it wouldn't make sense to write propaganda this way to promote a religion. It would fail.

I find your little essay here to be.

All hat and no cattle.

“Think&Care”

Since: Oct 07

Location hidden

#169771 Jun 23, 2013
Dave Nelson wrote:
<quoted text>
Bullshit.
Humanism of today is a direct descendant of Christian teachings.
Greek and Roman philosophy is not what is taught in today's world except in school classes. The present day evolved Christian ethos is the de facto basis of our social mores and even political thought.
That is just the way it is. Deal with it.
But the ethics of Christianity are derived from the Greek and Roman ethics which were common at the time of the rise of Christianity. So, teaching Christian morality is largely also teaching stoic and neo-platonic morality.

Since: Sep 08

Rocky Ford, CO

#169772 Jun 23, 2013
polymath257 wrote:
<quoted text>
But the ethics of Christianity are derived from the Greek and Roman ethics which were common at the time of the rise of Christianity. So, teaching Christian morality is largely also teaching stoic and neo-platonic morality.
Your assumption is that Greeks and Romans originated such, That is only because those were the writings that survived the times containing such that became part of Western education.

Many of man's perceptions are common and independently arrived at. Your education trains you to think in a linear fashion about such things.

Intelligence in man is proclaimed to be universal. Thus the logics and perceptions are apt to be similar. The Greeks and Romans were a small minority of the world's population.

A bush man squatting in the dirt is as capable of deep thoughts as a collector of previous recorded thoughts in a university. Perhaps even deeper. Less baggage to sort through.
Favorite Adversary

Brooklyn, NY

#169773 Jun 23, 2013
polymath257 wrote:
<quoted text>
But the ethics of Christianity are derived from the Greek and Roman ethics which were common at the time of the rise of Christianity. So, teaching Christian morality is largely also teaching stoic and neo-platonic morality.
I respect your online personality and your scholarship in the sciences polymath. Your intelligence and candor are top drawer. But here in historical matters regarding Christianity, I have to disagree with you. Ethics of Christianity basically turned Judaic teachings upside down to the consternation of everyone. The standard mindset of the time was of the Old Testament variety and reflected the prejudices of Mosaic Laws.

The Jews of Jesus' day were very much offended by Greco-Roman ethics and practices as is attested in Josephus' two major works 'Jewish Wars', and 'Antiquity of the Jews.'

After the purported resurrection of Jesus, his disciples and followers started turning away from previous behaviors that were deeply ingrained by their Judaic traditions.

“Think&Care”

Since: Oct 07

Location hidden

#169777 Jun 23, 2013
Favorite Adversary wrote:
<quoted text>
I respect your online personality and your scholarship in the sciences polymath. Your intelligence and candor are top drawer. But here in historical matters regarding Christianity, I have to disagree with you. Ethics of Christianity basically turned Judaic teachings upside down to the consternation of everyone. The standard mindset of the time was of the Old Testament variety and reflected the prejudices of Mosaic Laws.
The Jews of Jesus' day were very much offended by Greco-Roman ethics and practices as is attested in Josephus' two major works 'Jewish Wars', and 'Antiquity of the Jews.'
After the purported resurrection of Jesus, his disciples and followers started turning away from previous behaviors that were deeply ingrained by their Judaic traditions.
Just as today, not many Romans actually lived by the ethical principles they proclaimed. So, while stoicism and neo-platonism had very strong ethical sides that Christianity picked up, the Romans, especially those at the top, did not tend to live by those codes.

It should also be pointed out that, with Paul, there was a definite shift of Christianity away from the Judaic side and towards a more Roman religion. In particular, neo-platonism was a particularly strong influence through the teachings of Philo of Alexandria.

“Think&Care”

Since: Oct 07

Location hidden

#169778 Jun 23, 2013
atheism is evil wrote:
<quoted text>
Not getting that proof has made you very angry . Why is that?
Perhaps you are upset that your atheism isn't fulfilling your needs?
Perhaps your faith in atheism has been stricken down with doubt? Or is it you are just a bitter person as I've suspected all along?
No atheist has EVER answered my question: "Why do you want proof of God?"
I want proof of God for exactly the same reason I want proof of the Higg's particle or of dark matter: because proof is what is required for rational belief.
Faith is what Christians rely on to believe in God. Asking a Christian to provide that proof is silliness on your part.
And belief without proof or evidence is irrational. Religious faith is based on the tendency of people not to like to actually think for themselves. As such, it is a dereliction of duty and is wrong. In many cases, it is even evil.
I think the question should be , "why are atheists too weak-willed to rely on faith?"
Because faith is unreliable. That is shown by the simple fact that many have faith in contradictory beliefs. I no more rely on faith for my beliefs than I would a book of fairy tales.

It isn't weakness of will, but strength of character.

Since: Sep 08

Rocky Ford, CO

#169779 Jun 23, 2013
polymath257 wrote:
<quoted text>
I want proof of God for exactly the same reason I want proof of the Higg's particle or of dark matter: because proof is what is required for rational belief.
<quoted text>
And belief without proof or evidence is irrational. Religious faith is based on the tendency of people not to like to actually think for themselves. As such, it is a dereliction of duty and is wrong. In many cases, it is even evil.
<quoted text>
Because faith is unreliable. That is shown by the simple fact that many have faith in contradictory beliefs. I no more rely on faith for my beliefs than I would a book of fairy tales.
It isn't weakness of will, but strength of character.
"Religious faith is based on the tendency of people not to like to actually think for themselves."

So what is your view on scientism?

“I Am No One Else”

Since: Apr 12

Seattle

#169780 Jun 23, 2013
Favorite Adversary wrote:
<quoted text>
The analogy refers to the fact that sheep were the most common farm animal in that culture. Domesticated sheep need a shepherd who will keep them safe from predators. In Jesus' day "predators" were false Messiahs and other cultural leaders who didn't have spiritual concerns.
Sheep were also bred to be docile and eaten, in a horrible slaughter.

“I Am No One Else”

Since: Apr 12

Seattle

#169781 Jun 23, 2013
atheism is evil wrote:
<quoted text>
You seem to lie about everything, don't you? Is it even possible for you to tell the truth?
Provide one lie I have told and the evidence to support your assertion.

Catcher1

Since: Sep 10

Hermosa Beach, CA

#169782 Jun 23, 2013
Dave Nelson wrote:
<quoted text>
"Religious faith is based on the tendency of people not to like to actually think for themselves."
So what is your view on scientism?
My view is that it's a pejorative term, used by religitards like you.

I wouldn't dignify it with a response on the merits.

I don't suffer fools, Dave.

“I Am No One Else”

Since: Apr 12

Seattle

#169783 Jun 23, 2013
Catcher1 wrote:
<quoted text>
My view is that it's a pejorative term, used by religitards like you.
I wouldn't dignify it with a response on the merits.
I don't suffer fools, Dave.
Why did you give his nonsense credence by posting a response to it?

“Think&Care”

Since: Oct 07

Location hidden

#169784 Jun 23, 2013
Dave Nelson wrote:
<quoted text>
"Religious faith is based on the tendency of people not to like to actually think for themselves."
So what is your view on scientism?
I've already told you.

There are many questions that science cannot answer that are still interesting and important: do I like tomatoes? which art do I enjoy? What literature is good?

Also, all mathematical questions are outside of the realm of science.

The difference is that science provides knowledge about reality. The first class of questions are matters of opinion and not knowledge. mathematics is knowledge, but it is abstract knowledge, not knowledge about reality.

Since: Sep 08

Rocky Ford, CO

#169785 Jun 23, 2013
Catcher1 wrote:
<quoted text>
My view is that it's a pejorative term, used by religitards like you.
I wouldn't dignify it with a response on the merits.
I don't suffer fools, Dave.
Not enough room in your skin for another one.

Lovely first sentence. Really compliments your "objective" views.

You are getting more subtle in your comedic attempts. Keep it up.

Since: Sep 08

Rocky Ford, CO

#169786 Jun 23, 2013
polymath257 wrote:
<quoted text>
I've already told you.
There are many questions that science cannot answer that are still interesting and important: do I like tomatoes? which art do I enjoy? What literature is good?
Also, all mathematical questions are outside of the realm of science.
The difference is that science provides knowledge about reality. The first class of questions are matters of opinion and not knowledge. mathematics is knowledge, but it is abstract knowledge, not knowledge about reality.
You didn't tell me before or now.

Knowing "reality" is a very long ways off. So you stay dumb until then. Which means scientists now are dumb, which means dumb scientists are teaching us "reality" now.

Improve your scientific method. We are running out of time.

Since: Sep 08

Rocky Ford, CO

#169787 Jun 23, 2013
KittenKoder wrote:
<quoted text>
Why did you give his nonsense credence by posting a response to it?
"So what is your view on scientism?"

You consider that a nonsensical question?

Very impressive something or other you have there.

“I Am No One Else”

Since: Apr 12

Seattle

#169788 Jun 23, 2013
Dave Nelson wrote:
<quoted text>
You didn't tell me before or now.
Knowing "reality" is a very long ways off. So you stay dumb until then. Which means scientists now are dumb, which means dumb scientists are teaching us "reality" now.
Improve your scientific method. We are running out of time.
So this provides the perfect example of how lacking in education you are. Your entire concept of reality is what you made up, nothing in it challenges your fears, nothing in it challenges your mind. You have made existence itself meaningless by replacing it with religious superstition instead of attempting to study it, attempting to understand it.
LNC Llin

United States

#169789 Jun 23, 2013
KittenKoder wrote:
<quoted text>
So this provides the perfect example of how lacking in education you are. Your entire concept of reality is what you made up, nothing in it challenges your fears, nothing in it challenges your mind. You have made existence itself meaningless by replacing it with religious superstition instead of attempting to study it, attempting to understand it.
"Reality is a crutch for those who do not use drugs"

For get which movies this is from.

“I Am No One Else”

Since: Apr 12

Seattle

#169790 Jun 23, 2013
LNC Llin wrote:
<quoted text>
"Reality is a crutch for those who do not use drugs"
For get which movies this is from.
I recognize it, but alas I too cannot recall it's origin. It is apt.

“The future begins”

Since: Jul 07

every moment

#169791 Jun 23, 2013
I first heard it in a Lily Tomlin standup routine, waay back innaday...

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