Atheism requires as much faith as religion?

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Atheism requires as much faith as religion? bearvspuma : The only problem with this rationalization is that ita s assuming all athiests are so because theya re intelligent in the ways of science and reasoning and all people that believe in a form of god are unintelligent.
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“ IT'S A CHOICE !!!”

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#166181
May 28, 2013
 
Hi Imhotep, Als die link niet word probeer deze eens ... lol Interessante kleuren!

http://www.brobible.com/life/slideshow/the-co... .

“I Am No One Else”

Since: Apr 12

Seattle

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#166182
May 28, 2013
 

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Imhotep wrote:
<quoted text>
Take a very cold shower!
Then avoid religion at all costs in the future.
“Organised religion is violent, irrational, intolerant, allied to racism, tribalism, and bigotry, invested in ignorance and hostile to free inquiry, contemptuous of women and coercive toward children.”
~Christopher Hitchens
Hitchens was a great speaker and a great man, he is missed. Like Plato he will be remembered for as long as humans continue to exist.
blacklagoon

Brookline, MA

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#166183
May 28, 2013
 
KittenKoder wrote:
<quoted text>
Hitchens was a great speaker and a great man, he is missed. Like Plato he will be remembered for as long as humans continue to exist.
He certainly was right about religion poisoning EVERYTHING!!!!

Glad we have other brilliant people to demonstrate the metal illness that accompanies religion, like Sam Harris.

Since: May 13

Hightstown, NJ

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#166184
May 28, 2013
 
blacklagoon wrote:
<quoted text>There is no quibbling over definitions here. The definitions I gave for FACTS is not up for debate, those are simply what facts are.
Something is either true or it isn't, there is no third choice. What methodology do we use to determine wether something is true of not? Isn't it extremely important to ascertain whether something is true or not? Is not evidence one of the most important aspects of making that determination? Without evidence you have NOTHING. Without demonstrable facts, you have NOTHING. Until someone can produce evidence for the existence of God, until someone can produce anything factual about God, then all that is left is because of absents of evidence it is a fact that no God exists. Personal experiences, anecdotal testimony, the words in holy books, the belief by millions, none of these can be used as evidence. You are simply left with a belief, not a fact.
And morals do NOT prove the existence of God, morals are governed by man and the various societies of man.
again the idea that God exists can be defended through various arguments, leaving his existance in dispute. therefor the facts arent so clear cut. so the absence of evidence can not equal evidence of absence. second, personal experience is still a viable peice of evidence unless you can come up with comprehencive defeaters of those experiences. people dont have reason to doubt personal experience of every day matters until the are presented with defeaters of those experiences. and as far as morals go,we can discuss that further if youd like. i firmly believe that morals are a pretty strong indicator of the existnce of God.
Imhotep

Charlotte, NC

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#166185
May 28, 2013
 
Snevaeh legna wrote:
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Goedemorgen, ik hoop dat je een leuk weekend! IK heb een "beeld" voor u ... uw Internet vriend ...
http://www.google.com/search ?
q=california+gold+weed&tbm =isch&tbo=u&source=uni v&sa=X&ei=j8ekUa64CsTu rQGOx4HgBQ&ved=0CDYQsAQ &biw=1130&bih=709
Enjoy!
En een zeer goede morgen aan u!
Ik haat problemen openstelling uw link
Ik heb een geweldig weekend hoe gaat jouwe gaat gehad?
havent forgotten

Lamoni, IA

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#166186
May 28, 2013
 
Ray puelerico wrote:
<quoted text>
again the idea that God exists can be defended through various arguments, leaving his existance in dispute. therefor the facts arent so clear cut. so the absence of evidence can not equal evidence of absence. second, personal experience is still a viable peice of evidence unless you can come up with comprehencive defeaters of those experiences. people dont have reason to doubt personal experience of every day matters until the are presented with defeaters of those experiences. and as far as morals go,we can discuss that further if youd like. i firmly believe that morals are a pretty strong indicator of the existnce of God.
First of all, I wish to assert the right of a commenter to agree with one part of someone's comment, and to disagree with another part. I will do that first with you and then with the person you are in an argument with.

I agree that facts are not clear cut, in many cases. In many cases they are not known at all.

I do not think that absence of evidence is evidence of absence, on the God issue or many other things. But it is not an excuse for weak assertions to be claimed as "evidence", for either side.

The notion that something is true or not, may be correct by definition, but it sure does not imply that we know or can know what is true about everything that interests us.

You may have your opinion, but I do not see your alleged evidence as being real evidence. I also do not think that the atheists who claim to "know" there is no God have evidence that there is none, or that they know it. There are two issues involved, one is whether there is or is not something that can reasonably be called a God (and the definition is not clear or universally accepted), and the second issue is about the nature and extent of human knowledge.

I am an agnostic (not making a knowledge claim), and also an atheist (not a believer in a God). I doubt whether anyone knows or can know whether something that can reasonably be called a god exists. I depends on the definition, and on what thinks is a reasonable definition.

I personally feel strongly that an allgoodallpowerful God does not and could not exist, given the world we observe and feel, with pain in it.

I also think that there is a reasonable definition of a God that exists - which is that God is a name for everything that exists.

But I certainly do not think that the Christian God as described is allgood and allpowerful, nor do I think it is everything that exists. I do not believe in it because I think that the Biblical God is not a nice guy, and unworthy of worship, even more than I consider it to be unlikely to exist, as a matter of reason.
havent forgotten

Lamoni, IA

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#166187
May 28, 2013
 
Aerobatty wrote:
<quoted text>
Trying to organize atheists is like trying to herd cats.
That is true, but to get folks who say they believe in religion to reach common beliefs is also impossible on many matters. People have different opinions, and it is a very good thing that they do.
On many things. Maybe we should all want our planet to survive as a habitable place for humans and the plants and animals and ecosystems we value.
havent forgotten

Lamoni, IA

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#166188
May 28, 2013
 
blacklagoon wrote:
<quoted text>There is no quibbling over definitions here. The definitions I gave for FACTS is not up for debate, those are simply what facts are.
Something is either true or it isn't, there is no third choice. What methodology do we use to determine wether something is true of not? Isn't it extremely important to ascertain whether something is true or not? Is not evidence one of the most important aspects of making that determination? Without evidence you have NOTHING. Without demonstrable facts, you have NOTHING. Until someone can produce evidence for the existence of God, until someone can produce anything factual about God, then all that is left is because of absents of evidence it is a fact that no God exists. Personal experiences, anecdotal testimony, the words in holy books, the belief by millions, none of these can be used as evidence. You are simply left with a belief, not a fact.
And morals do NOT prove the existence of God, morals are governed by man and the various societies of man.
Please read my two comments above. I do not agree with you that it is a fact that no God exists. I do not think we have agreed on an adequate definition of God so that we agree on what we are even discussing.
I also do not think that the absence of evidence is the evidence of absence.

I think it is rational not to believe in God, but arrogant to claim one knows there is no God (especially when there is no adequate definition of a God, and not enough understanding of what would constitute knowledge, as differing from even sensible opinion).

I am an agnostic (not making a knowledge claim) atheist (not a believer in any God I have ever heard of). I doubt that anyone knows or can know whether there is something that can reasonably be called God. But in general I prefer the opinion that there is not, given the usual very unacceptable (to me) descriptions of God and gods and their behavior, and also the usual totally unconvincing arguments for the existence of such Gods.

Again, I do believe one sort of God is totally impossible, and in a visceral sense of knowing, I feel that I know it does not exist:
that is the socalled allgoodallpowerful God. The existence of pain rules that one out, in my view.

also for fun, I advance a superpantheist definition of a God that does exist - that God is a name for everything that exists. It has the big advantage of being a bigger entity and bigger claimant for the title of a God that most others, and dwarfs them by comparison - even a socalled Creator God, who does not seem to include its own creation, and thus would be inferior to the All that Exists.

This definition should allow folks to minimize the claims of such inferior Gods as the God of the three big monotheistic religions.
My other acceptable God would be a very nice border collie, but that is my bias.
havent forgotten

Lamoni, IA

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#166189
May 28, 2013
 
Imhotep wrote:
<quoted text>
Once again you're too stupid to understand the context. Too bad you can't twist Einstein's thoughts. We do understand your religion has taught you to lie.
The inspiration of the bible depends on the ignorance of the person who reads it.
We should be agnostic about those things for which there is no evidence. We should not hold beliefs merely because they gratify our desires for afterlife or immortality.
If you really believe that death leads to eternal bliss then why are you wearing a seat belt?
You belong to the church - stay there
again that was to someone else, but maybe you and I have similar views, and if you wish to take the time to look at some of my comments above and reply to anything there.
I sort of object to saying that believers lie - when I define a lie as a knowing telling of an untruth. I think many believers to not knowingly do so. I think even when they warp things, it is because their thinking processes are warped, and/or minimal, rather than because they know and lie. I think many big bankers lie on purpose, and know better but want to fool folks for their own profit, for example. I think that is the correct use of the accusation of liar.

“I Am No One Else”

Since: Apr 12

Seattle

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#166190
May 28, 2013
 
blacklagoon wrote:
<quoted text>He certainly was right about religion poisoning EVERYTHING!!!!
Glad we have other brilliant people to demonstrate the metal illness that accompanies religion, like Sam Harris.
I am not a huge Harris fan, personally, I think he's a bit too fanatical at times. Hitchens thought out what he would say, and often stuck to the facts, while Harris seems more emotionally attached to his assertions. But, we all have our own preferences.

“I see quantum effects”

Since: Jan 11

In the macro world.

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#166191
May 28, 2013
 
havent forgotten wrote:
<quoted text>That is true, but to get folks who say they believe in religion to reach common beliefs is also impossible on many matters. People have different opinions, and it is a very good thing that they do.
On many things. Maybe we should all want our planet to survive as a habitable place for humans and the plants and animals and ecosystems we value.
Agreed.

But when 80% of the population thinks there's some magical civil engineer coming back to fix everything for us, it's difficult to get 100% motivated.
Imhotep

Charlotte, NC

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#166192
May 28, 2013
 
Snevaeh legna wrote:
Hi Imhotep, Als die link niet word probeer deze eens ... lol Interessante kleuren!
http://www.brobible.com/life/slideshow/the-co... .
Waarom vraag je me plagen?
Je weet dat ik hou van marihuana elke kleur!
Imhotep

Charlotte, NC

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#166193
May 28, 2013
 
havent forgotten wrote:
<quoted text> again that was to someone else, but maybe you and I have similar views, and if you wish to take the time to look at some of my comments above and reply to anything there.
I sort of object to saying that believers lie - when I define a lie as a knowing telling of an untruth. I think many believers to not knowingly do so. I think even when they warp things, it is because their thinking processes are warped, and/or minimal, rather than because they know and lie. I think many big bankers lie on purpose, and know better but want to fool folks for their own profit, for example. I think that is the correct use of the accusation of liar.
Indeed we do share many views it appears.
That post you responded to was directed specifically at one person who lies constantly.

For one thing I'm not religious I'm a secular humanist.
I was not raised in to any religion.
Actually, until 911 happened, I paid scamt attention to it.

Since: May 13

Hightstown, NJ

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#166194
May 28, 2013
 
havent forgotten wrote:
<quoted text> First of all, I wish to assert the right of a commenter to agree with one part of someone's comment, and to disagree with another part. I will do that first with you and then with the person you are in an argument with.
I agree that facts are not clear cut, in many cases. In many cases they are not known at all.
I do not think that absence of evidence is evidence of absence, on the God issue or many other things. But it is not an excuse for weak assertions to be claimed as "evidence", for either side.
The notion that something is true or not, may be correct by definition, but it sure does not imply that we know or can know what is true about everything that interests us.
You may have your opinion, but I do not see your alleged evidence as being real evidence. I also do not think that the atheists who claim to "know" there is no God have evidence that there is none, or that they know it. There are two issues involved, one is whether there is or is not something that can reasonably be called a God (and the definition is not clear or universally accepted), and the second issue is about the nature and extent of human knowledge.
I am an agnostic (not making a knowledge claim), and also an atheist (not a believer in a God). I doubt whether anyone knows or can know whether something that can reasonably be called a god exists. I depends on the definition, and on what thinks is a reasonable definition.
I personally feel strongly that an allgoodallpowerful God does not and could not exist, given the world we observe and feel, with pain in it.
I also think that there is a reasonable definition of a God that exists - which is that God is a name for everything that exists.
But I certainly do not think that the Christian God as described is allgood and allpowerful, nor do I think it is everything that exists. I do not believe in it because I think that the Biblical God is not a nice guy, and unworthy of worship, even more than I consider it to be unlikely to exist, as a matter of reason.
you know, i agree with you on many points. you are right, christians have no excuse for some of the arguments they give. i often find my hand firmly pressed to my face in frustration towhat i read some christians post at times. i think its something that christians have to understand. you cant argue the bible from the inside to someone on the outside of that world view, or itll just be like you saying im right ur wrong with no argument for the truth of it..

on another point i agree with, i do agree that the pain we feel is a strong reason for doubting the existance of God. and it doesnt help that often times we cant see the answers to why the pain we see and feel happen. we want the world to be right, and we think that if God exists, he should stop or fix the pain. but ive sat down and thought very hard on many things in this area, and ive seen that very often its where the greatest pain exists that belief in God flurishes. and its not because they are weak by any means. i doubt anyone could look at those who suffer anywhere in the world and say they are weak for believing in God with the kind of strength that ive seen personally. when we look at the things that happen, we see pain, but we also see healing after the storm so to speak. and i think those that suffer and believe in God also have doubts, just as i have had, but many have also described their lives as being stronger with God. i could not see this as merely a function of weakness or crutch bearing. sometimes pain is just the thing people need to step back and ask where God is. many find him, and some dont.
Bongo

Bayport, NY

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#166195
May 28, 2013
 
Buck Crick wrote:
<quoted text>
Hey. You stole my laugh, you big yankee.
Might have to drive north and line you up.
Is that better than squarin off? Make sure you bring some jello with banana slices
havent forgotten

Lamoni, IA

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#166196
May 28, 2013
 
Ray puelerico wrote:
<quoted text>
you know, i agree with you on many points. you are right, christians have no excuse for some of the arguments they give. i often find my hand firmly pressed to my face in frustration towhat i read some christians post at times. i think its something that christians have to understand. you cant argue the bible from the inside to someone on the outside of that world view, or itll just be like you saying im right ur wrong with no argument for the truth of it..
on another point i agree with, i do agree that the pain we feel is a strong reason for doubting the existance of God. and it doesnt help that often times we cant see the answers to why the pain we see and feel happen. we want the world to be right, and we think that if God exists, he should stop or fix the pain. but ive sat down and thought very hard on many things in this area, and ive seen that very often its where the greatest pain exists that belief in God flurishes. and its not because they are weak by any means. i doubt anyone could look at those who suffer anywhere in the world and say they are weak for believing in God with the kind of strength that ive seen personally. when we look at the things that happen, we see pain, but we also see healing after the storm so to speak. and i think those that suffer and believe in God also have doubts, just as i have had, but many have also described their lives as being stronger with God. i could not see this as merely a function of weakness or crutch bearing. sometimes pain is just the thing people need to step back and ask where God is. many find him, and some dont.
thank you for the interesting reply. I think that many people who suffer have more reason to believe in God because they believe in an afterlife where everything will be made right and for a much longer time. They also need to think that everything that happens in this life is for a reason, and a part of a good plan of a good God, which is one that will save them in an afterlife (and often they like to think that people who disagree with them on religion, but are not suffering now, will go to hell later and suffer more). Many of them rush to churches after disasters, and listen to sermons who preach that message. And many in Oklahoma probably have voted for Senator Inhofe, who has done more to oppose restrictions on carbon pollution than anyone else in politics. If this world turns into a hot "hell" for their living grandchildren, never mind, God will fix it somehow, or get them all into heaven. Meanwhile the rest of life on earth will live horrid lives with disasters. These wild religious types will think that is God's punishment for legalization of gay marriage or something, and OK.

“YO BOO”

Since: Sep 07

land of BOO

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#166197
May 28, 2013
 

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macumazahn wrote:
<quoted text>Okay.
Is striking a six-momth-old okay, or not?
if you ask a question like that! you would understand the answer..

“YO BOO”

Since: Sep 07

land of BOO

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#166198
May 28, 2013
 

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KittenKoder wrote:
<quoted text>
Hitchens was a great speaker and a great man, he is missed. Like Plato he will be remembered for as long as humans continue to exist.
so will Jesus Christ

Since: May 13

Hightstown, NJ

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#166199
May 28, 2013
 
havent forgotten wrote:
<quoted text> thank you for the interesting reply. I think that many people who suffer have more reason to believe in God because they believe in an afterlife where everything will be made right and for a much longer time. They also need to think that everything that happens in this life is for a reason, and a part of a good plan of a good God, which is one that will save them in an afterlife (and often they like to think that people who disagree with them on religion, but are not suffering now, will go to hell later and suffer more). Many of them rush to churches after disasters, and listen to sermons who preach that message. And many in Oklahoma probably have voted for Senator Inhofe, who has done more to oppose restrictions on carbon pollution than anyone else in politics. If this world turns into a hot "hell" for their living grandchildren, never mind, God will fix it somehow, or get them all into heaven. Meanwhile the rest of life on earth will live horrid lives with disasters. These wild religious types will think that is God's punishment for legalization of gay marriage or something, and OK.
again, i find myself agreeing with you on pretty much everythingyousaid. many people do go to church for comfort, and a number of people try to view bad things that happen as Gods punishment for things. personally, even though i do have the belief that God judges sin, i think its stupid and hateful to just up and blame gays for hurricanes or abortions for earthquakes or whatever stupid things some christians say. one of my best friends is gay, and even though i want him healthy and care for his wellbeing, i would never in a trillion years blame him for a single incident of global harm. plus, i think that its foolish to believe that God will fix EVERYTHING that we humans mess up. we have to take responsability for our actions and do our part. now, i think the reasons people believe vary, and oi respect most of the reasons, although some resons are more valid than others. i think that discussions on God and faith are important, and are a big part of peoples everyday lives and life long world views. thats why im here. i like talking about these things and getting a feel for the world as we view it

Since: May 13

Hightstown, NJ

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#166200
May 28, 2013
 
havent forgotten wrote:
<quoted text> thank you for the interesting reply. I think that many people who suffer have more reason to believe in God because they believe in an afterlife where everything will be made right and for a much longer time. They also need to think that everything that happens in this life is for a reason, and a part of a good plan of a good God, which is one that will save them in an afterlife (and often they like to think that people who disagree with them on religion, but are not suffering now, will go to hell later and suffer more). Many of them rush to churches after disasters, and listen to sermons who preach that message. And many in Oklahoma probably have voted for Senator Inhofe, who has done more to oppose restrictions on carbon pollution than anyone else in politics. If this world turns into a hot "hell" for their living grandchildren, never mind, God will fix it somehow, or get them all into heaven. Meanwhile the rest of life on earth will live horrid lives with disasters. These wild religious types will think that is God's punishment for legalization of gay marriage or something, and OK.
you have a way of thining that i can appreciate. these are the kind of discussions i like. they brighten my day. thanks for that.

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