Atheism requires as much faith as rel...

Atheism requires as much faith as religion?

There are 258479 comments on the Webbunny tumblelog story from Jul 18, 2009, titled Atheism requires as much faith as religion?. In it, Webbunny tumblelog reports that:

Atheism requires as much faith as religion? bearvspuma : The only problem with this rationalization is that ita s assuming all athiests are so because theya re intelligent in the ways of science and reasoning and all people that believe in a form of god are unintelligent.

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“A sentient umbrella speaks”

Since: Mar 11

Some stable somewhere

#232405 Jul 13, 2014
Buck Crick wrote:
<quoted text>
Right. Infinity cannot be reached. That's why it is not a realizable value - A PHYSICAL INFINITY WOULD MEAN INFINITY IS REACHED. It is a blatant contradiction.
Stoeger points out the contradiction, and he is correct. Whether Stoeger is a theologian is of exactly no relevance.
Even George Cantor, the most famous author of transfinite math, said it has no application in physical reality.
The ONLY legitimate application of "infinity" is in theoretical mathematics.
Aura Mythra, Polymath, etc. do not know the difference in transfinite math theory and physical reality.
Physicists are becoming more and more prone to using the term in cosmology, which is erroneous, and the critical reader should take notice of the fallacy.
So you’re saying that any measurable quantity that is increasing and will continue to increase forever is not an infinity because we can measure it?
B: Correct. It’s not an infinity.
H: Because we can measure it?
B: Correct.
H: But then it gets bigger.
B: Correct. And we can measure that, too.
H: So it’s not an infinity , despite that it continues to increase, forever because-
B:-because we can measure it. Yes.
H: Ok, so let’s take an example – the size of the universe, expanding forever
B: Measured, not infinite.
H: Oh, it got bigger.
B: Measured.
H: Bigger
Measured
Bigger
Measured
(continues for the next several decades unabated until Buck is nearing the sad end)
Meas…urr…eedd (urk!)
Bigger. Oh, you’re dead! Well, I guess the universe continued to expand, so it must be an in-fi
(from the ghostly beyond)~measured~
Bigger!
~measured~
(continues for a few more years, then Hiding is about to pass)
Bi..g..g…
~measured~ ha! I finally got the last measurement in, Hiding, you have fa-
~bigger!~
~measured~
~bigger~
~measured~
~bigger~
(and so the two ghosts argue for eternity, never reaching an end. Almost as if they were chasing…infinity)

“A sentient umbrella speaks”

Since: Mar 11

Some stable somewhere

#232406 Jul 13, 2014
number four wrote:
<quoted text>..touche'..
I win, I win, I win!!!

“ad victoriam”

Since: Dec 10

arte et marte

#232407 Jul 13, 2014
Hidingfromyou wrote:
<quoted text>
So you’re saying that any measurable quantity that is increasing and will continue to increase forever is not an infinity because we can measure it?
B: Correct. It’s not an infinity.
H: Because we can measure it?
B: Correct.
H: But then it gets bigger.
B: Correct. And we can measure that, too.
H: So it’s not an infinity , despite that it continues to increase, forever because-
B:-because we can measure it. Yes.
H: Ok, so let’s take an example – the size of the universe, expanding forever
B: Measured, not infinite.
H: Oh, it got bigger.
B: Measured.
H: Bigger
Measured
Bigger
Measured
(continues for the next several decades unabated until Buck is nearing the sad end)
Meas…urr…eedd (urk!)
Bigger. Oh, you’re dead! Well, I guess the universe continued to expand, so it must be an in-fi
(from the ghostly beyond)~measured~
Bigger!
~measured~
(continues for a few more years, then Hiding is about to pass)
Bi..g..g…
~measured~ ha! I finally got the last measurement in, Hiding, you have fa-
~bigger!~
~measured~
~bigger~
~measured~
~bigger~
(and so the two ghosts argue for eternity, never reaching an end. Almost as if they were chasing…infinity)
In the scenario I gave you, any attempt to measure the distance will never succeed in measuring it's entirety. There will never be a measure long enough because it's physically impossible to measure what can never be causally connected to our portion of the universe. We can imagine it has a limit but never know. We can only know it's much larger than what can be measured. So you have to say is this infinite or can we imagine that it's not. Because by definition it's infinite.

1.limitless or endless in space, extent, or size; impossible to measure or calculate.

unlimited or unmeasurable in extent of space, duration of time,

Existing beyond or being greater than any arbitrarily large value.

having no limits or boundaries in time, space, extent, or magnitude

Those were 4 different dictionary's and it meets that criteria.

Nope, it doesn't matter how much he squirms away from it it the mind boggling reality.

“LOL Really?”

Since: Oct 10

Location hidden

#232408 Jul 13, 2014
number four wrote:
<quoted text>..glazed..??
Jelly

Tehee Candor

“A Time for laughter and ...”

Since: Apr 13

A Time to be candid.

#232409 Jul 13, 2014
Our church rarely serves donuts. Must be about time to move on and find another denomination.

:O

“cdesign proponentsists”

Since: Jul 09

Pittsburgh, PA

#232410 Jul 13, 2014
Lab28 wrote:
<quoted text>
Now you're being real. I knew you had a better reason than what you said about Matthew 5.
Doubt, is not an absence of belief. Doubt is actually an opposing belief. So, build upon the doubt, and see where it leads you.....
Your entire post would make prefect sense if:

I only read the bits you mentioned.

I had not read the bible myself.

your god did not claim to be omniscient and never changing.

I don't doubt anymore, I haven't for years. While I cannot say there is no god, I can say that the god of the bible is man made, the bible itself proves that.

“cdesign proponentsists”

Since: Jul 09

Pittsburgh, PA

#232411 Jul 13, 2014
Lab28 wrote:
<quoted text>You missed the poor right there too, Christianity is big with poor people. I suppose if you're a person who just doesn't have any problems you would never "fall for religion." After all what need would you have for a power greater than yourself if you are in complete control of every part of your life. I still haven't met that person.
Religion is big with the poor, not just christianity. You went from being poor to a person will no problems and in complete control. No middle ground?

There are plenty of more powerful things than me. Nature, big corporations, governments and the like. I have to abide by and deal with them all. No supernatural powers required,
Lab28 wrote:
<quoted text>That's an excellent point, since if you weren't born in a country that allows freedom of religion during a time when our culture is getting less and less involved in religion you probably would not have picked atheism. So it's a self-refuting argument, but nevertheless a good point.
That was good, but not really. A lack of belief comes from knowledge and lack of indoctrination. Everyone in my family is a full blown believer and I was with several of them every step of the way. The indoctrination failed to take hold of me. There are some highly intelligent people that believe in god and if you ever talk to them about their religion, they ignore their normal objectiveness and most of the bible. They would never do that with any other subject, except for possibly politics.
Lab28 wrote:
<quoted text>You also can't not hear yourself parroting the same rhetoric as most internet atheists do. Talking about Santa Claus and the Easter bunny. I know they serve as examples of false beliefs being pushed on children and fully understand the point you are making.
I've also heard the idea that there is no evidence of a God enough times to understand that it's something you truly believe. Good, got it. There is plenty of evidence either way, but no absolute proof. It would be a waste of time for me to go research it, and truncate it into a post on this forum, considering how many times you've posted you've probably heard it anyways.
Is saying, 2+2=4 parroting the math teacher or is it stating the facts as we know it. Parroting is when you really don't understand what you are talking about, you just repeat what you've heard.

The evidence for god that I have heard.

Look at the tree. Not after a hurricane knocked it over!!!!

Look at the miracle of birth! But not when the baby is still born or its heart is on the outside of its chest!!

Explain how we got here if there wasn't a god!

All these bits of 'evidence' are not really evidence, now are they? Seeing an adult book shore get hit by lightening is evidence god hates pornography, but when it hits a church or a huge wooden statue of Jesus!!! That is another matter completely!!
Lab28 wrote:
<quoted text>My point has been to present consistent philosophy, as it's what lit me up. But choice has always been the dilemma hasn't it? We can all choose who we serve.
I'll leave you with this quote by Martin Luther
"Whatever your heart clings to and confides in, that is really your God."
I serve the human race. I try to help them whenever I can.

I will leave you with a quote from George Carlin, "Religion is bullshit!"

Since: May 10

Location hidden

#232412 Jul 13, 2014
Aura Mytha wrote:
<quoted text>
Infinity in calculations are a problem, the world in logic and reason has no use in finding one, as we want to make sense of everything and infinite sum makes no sense.
Even when calculating black holes where space is infinitly curved and gravity becomes infinite is a problem. We want to think there is something missing in Einsteins GR,
because it isn't supposed to be . The same with the volume of space, and it makes no sense to us logically that it maybe infinite. Buck is right about that part,
and to know for sure whether space is actually is infinite and by that I mean that to know whether it is truly boundless is impossible to ever find because of the phenomena
I have been explaining.
The math that adds up to an infinite length is time dependent on the travel toward the event horizon. But we know that the farther away the faster the universe is accelerating
away so it appears the distance past the horizon has already moved into infinity. All the measurements done by WMAP and The Sloan Digital Sky Survey support the idea that the
universe actually is infinite, which basically means , there are some things beyond human comprehension and human ability, or rather beyond the physical ability to be overcome ever
as far as this universe is concerned. This isn't good news for us and makes it hard to understand how the universe came to be and what exactly is going on here.
But even worse it makes it impossible to even find out, but then thats why NASA and all who study this usually end it with, space is flat and probably infinite.
We just dont want to accept that it is, while admitting it's what the data is showing.
If the data shows something is infinite, the data is wrong, because it's impossible.

Same as a married bachelor is impossible.

It's understandable why one can claim to be a married bachelor if he abandons the meaning of either "married" or "bachelor".

That's the only way you get an infinite universe.

Since: May 10

Location hidden

#232413 Jul 13, 2014
Aura Mytha wrote:
<quoted text> In the scenario I gave you, any attempt to measure the distance will never succeed in measuring it's entirety. There will never be a measure long enough because it's physically impossible to measure what can never be causally connected to our portion of the universe. We can imagine it has a limit but never know. We can only know it's much larger than what can be measured. So you have to say is this infinite or can we imagine that it's not. Because by definition it's infinite.
1.limitless or endless in space, extent, or size; impossible to measure or calculate.
unlimited or unmeasurable in extent of space, duration of time,
Existing beyond or being greater than any arbitrarily large value.
having no limits or boundaries in time, space, extent, or magnitude
Those were 4 different dictionary's and it meets that criteria.
Nope, it doesn't matter how much he squirms away from it it the mind boggling reality.
It's only min-boggling when people lie about it, saying it's something it's not.

"Greater than any large value" proves the physical infinite cannot exist.

It's extent would be greater than its extent.

The extent of the physical universe has a value. We don't know what it is, and it doesn't matter whether we know what it is. If it is physical, it's extent has a value.

Infinity, by definition, is greater than that physical value.

Or any value.

Infinity is unreachable.

If it were reached, it would no longer be infinity.

If your expanding universe reached infinity, it would no longer be infinity.

There can never be a time when the universe is infinite in extent.

Never.

Your contention to the contrary is not "mind boggling". It is bull shit.

Since: May 10

Location hidden

#232414 Jul 13, 2014
TheBlackSheep wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes I am lacking belief in a god or gods, much like I lack a belief in the Tooth Fairy.
I do not believe that there is no god, I do not see any evidence that there is a god. There are billions of things for which there is no evidence, am I an athoothfairian? an asantaclausian. You can say it over and over until you are blue in the face, it does not make it true.
A theist believes in a god or gods. An atheist lacks belief in a god or gods.
I don't believe in the BBT; I follow the evidence that leads to that conclusion and will quickly change as the data dictates.
Try being honest.

You believe there are no gods.

Simply lacking belief is not atheism, and it is not what you are expressing.

You express rejection of the proposition that there is a god. You have a belief.

“It's Time. . .”

Since: Jun 13

New Holland

#232415 Jul 13, 2014
Hidingfromyou wrote:
<quoted text>
Let's just clarify here. The Princeton Engineering Research Anomalies lab - located in ... Princeton, one of the top universities in the world - produces results that are significant, repeatable and measurable. I likewise have equations that can take their data and graphically represent it on a time + distance axis with undeniable fit. We can subsequently find exact brain waves that describe such information flow and we can model it via computers - and more.
You believe in a deity that has no evidence, has never been seen and is just something you grew up with.
And you're calling me "outlandish"?
That's awesome.
It's true actually, because "outlandish" merely means an outlander = foreigner.

Definition 4:
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/outlandish

“A sentient umbrella speaks”

Since: Mar 11

Some stable somewhere

#232416 Jul 13, 2014
Aura Mytha wrote:
<quoted text> In the scenario I gave you, any attempt to measure the distance will never succeed in measuring it's entirety. There will never be a measure long enough because it's physically impossible to measure what can never be causally connected to our portion of the universe. We can imagine it has a limit but never know. We can only know it's much larger than what can be measured. So you have to say is this infinite or can we imagine that it's not. Because by definition it's infinite.
1.limitless or endless in space, extent, or size; impossible to measure or calculate.
unlimited or unmeasurable in extent of space, duration of time,
Existing beyond or being greater than any arbitrarily large value.
having no limits or boundaries in time, space, extent, or magnitude
Those were 4 different dictionary's and it meets that criteria.
Nope, it doesn't matter how much he squirms away from it it the mind boggling reality.
Good point.

How do you deal with estimations?

“A sentient umbrella speaks”

Since: Mar 11

Some stable somewhere

#232417 Jul 13, 2014
Buck Crick wrote:
<quoted text>
Try being honest.
You believe there are no gods.
Simply lacking belief is not atheism, and it is not what you are expressing.
You express rejection of the proposition that there is a god. You have a belief.
Here's an interesting case study for you Buck. This cultural group has no deities, no concept of deities, afterlife, ghosts or any such things that would fall under the (imagined) category "supernatural).

So, they neither know of deities nor don't believe in deities. What would they be called?

The Pirahã people:

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2007/04/16...

“It's Time. . .”

Since: Jun 13

New Holland

#232418 Jul 13, 2014
Hidingfromyou wrote:
<quoted text>
Uhm...what's a twink? Is that some kind of term for Asian?
Oh dear oh, deary me. Not it isn't an Asian, not necessarily.

A twink is a handsome, young, homosexual man. The kind that makes me shake my head.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twink_ (gay_slang)
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php...
http://thehomolife.com/39-signs-youre-a-twink...

It's not too derogatory for HIM, but to call you that? ROFLOLOLOLOLLC!!!

“It's Time. . .”

Since: Jun 13

New Holland

#232419 Jul 13, 2014
Hidingfromyou wrote:
<quoted text>
Hmm...I'd suggest that anyone who was raised in a religion and then rejected it, becoming atheist, would believe that deities don't exist.
I'd suggest that someone who was simply raised in the absence of deity belief, who couldn't fathom them, would simply "not have a belief about deities."
For the latter one, there are a few cultures that don't have deities. They have spirits or sorcery - so they wouldn't, until the concept was explained, bother to think about deities.
Not sure if this is close, but I know Japanese who think the entire concept of deities is silly and kind of funny. They don't understand it - it's basically incomprehensible to them - but, in their normal social lives, they still go about religious rituals. It's simply that they have social meaning, not spiritual meaning.
In my house, for example, we put the Butsudan in the closet. So we're being quite disrespectful to the kamisama (deity) but...ah...none of us care. It still gets beer and rice on the days it's supposed to, along with incense - but only b/c it's supposed to. Not because any of us are actually worried our house deity is going to be unhappy and cause our house to collapse.
However, I've gone to other people's houses and the first thing you do is pray to the kamisama. Then socialize. I feel silly doing it, but I don't let them know.
Ok then. We could say that your family are closet atheists.
:-)

“It's Time. . .”

Since: Jun 13

New Holland

#232420 Jul 13, 2014
waaasssuuup wrote:
<quoted text>
besides being fools, athesits are also often gay and/or ALWAYS gay advocates. hence the term that i coined - Gaytheists!
i thought this term would have gone viral by now.....
...in your shirt-lifting fantasies. LOL

“It's Time. . .”

Since: Jun 13

New Holland

#232421 Jul 13, 2014
Aura Mytha wrote:
<quoted text>
I had this stupid cat once......
So did I. Was it a Maltese pussycat?!

“It's Time. . .”

Since: Jun 13

New Holland

#232422 Jul 13, 2014
Buck Crick wrote:
<quoted text>
It's in the Book of Exodus.
It deals with the modulus of elasticity.
"Moses tied his ass to a tree and walked ten miles."
LOL

Since: May 10

Location hidden

#232423 Jul 13, 2014
Aura Mytha wrote:
<quoted text>
I'm not contradicting anything, the evidence is contradictory.
Faster than light travel is impossible, but space itself is expanding faster than light.
It presents the same problem as black holes do when space becomes infinitly curved and gravity becomes infinite.
The difference is things are receding away at the horizon faster than light and distance becomes infinite between the particle barrier and the event horizon.
There are plenty of papers on this subject, though we can't really make sense of it or understand how it can be , we can only say that we see that it is.
To which we answer with dark energy is the cause.
You are lost.

Math theory and reality are not the same thing.

You can have all the infinite values you want in math theory.

In physical reality? None. Zero.

Why?

Because it is impossible.

William R. Stoeger, Astrophysicist:

"It is important to recognize that infinity is not an actual number we can ever specify, determine or reach; it is simply a code-word for “it continues without end”.’ and ‘…something that is not specifiable or determinate in quantity, extent or event, is not materially or physically realizable. Whenever infinities emerge in physics,... we can be reasonably sure, as is usually recognized, that there has been a breakdown in our models. Any accepted infinity within a physical parameter is tantamount to specifying what is essentially un-specifiable."

Keywords: "not physically realizable"

Keywords: "specifying what is un-specifiable"

P.C.W Davies, Physicist:

"There is an unwritten rule in science that when anything potentially observable is predicted to become infinite, it is a sure sign that the theory itself is in need of fixing".

“It's Time. . .”

Since: Jun 13

New Holland

#232424 Jul 13, 2014
TheBlackSheep wrote:
<quoted text>
Oh how that hated Gutenberg! He made the bible accessible for all to read! Little did the church leaders realize, their flocks would not read the bible!
Oh how they hated the Internet! It made the errors, the inconsistencies, and the horrible stories visible for all to see. Little did they realize, the indoctrinated would dismiss and excuse all those stories and even perpetuate lies given by the pulpit.
The surest cure for religion: reading the book the religion is based on and that pill is just too large for most.
Scientia est potentia.

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