Atheism requires as much faith as religion?

Atheism requires as much faith as religion? bearvspuma : The only problem with this rationalization is that ita s assuming all athiests are so because theya re intelligent in the ways of science and reasoning and all people that believe in a form of god are unintelligent. Full Story

Since: Oct 10

Location hidden

#211710 Feb 8, 2014
Eagle 12 wrote:
<quoted text>
Every church I’ve attended always had Mom’s work the nursery. And every Mom that works the nursery is a church member.
It’s kind of unfair to ask someone who has no children to watch someone else’s kids.
I’m telling you it takes a mom with a hell of a strong stomach to deal with some of those diapers.
And I wouldn’t be so sure people assume you two are a couple in that way. For all they know you two could be cousins.
New Flash !!!!!!!!

It's not 1939 anymore, Eagle.

“What's left to defend?”

Since: Jan 11

Freedom

#211711 Feb 8, 2014
Eagle 12 wrote:
Every church I’ve attended always had Mom’s work the nursery. And every Mom that works the nursery is a church member.
It’s kind of unfair to ask someone who has no children to watch someone else’s kids.
I’m telling you it takes a mom with a hell of a strong stomach to deal with some of those diapers.
And I wouldn’t be so sure people assume you two are a couple in that way. For all they know you two could be cousins.
You can't help it, can you?

Your concern is in providing damage control to protect the image of Christianity, lest someone get the right idea.

Since: Oct 10

Location hidden

#211712 Feb 8, 2014
Eagle 12 wrote:
<quoted text>
Every church I’ve attended always had Mom’s work the nursery. And every Mom that works the nursery is a church member.
It’s kind of unfair to ask someone who has no children to watch someone else’s kids.
I’m telling you it takes a mom with a hell of a strong stomach to deal with some of those diapers.
And I wouldn’t be so sure people assume you two are a couple in that way. For all they know you two could be cousins.
Why did you change churches? Did you move or did they ask you to leave?

“The eye has it...”

Since: May 09

Russell's Teapot

#211713 Feb 8, 2014
Eagle 12 wrote:
<quoted text>
There’s always a beginning and without it there’s no ending.















Unless it's your deity, then >it< bypasses your statement above, no?






Eagle 12 wrote:
You had a birth day. That was your beginning. And most assuredly you will have a expiration day.
Yep.
Eagle 12 wrote:
All that‘s between your beginning until your ending is a life that has embraced nothing. And nothing is what you will be remembered for.
A life of nothingness.
Your perception of yourself is damaged.

Your religious belief in magical thinking has damaged you, so much, that you believe I must believe as you do, in order to have made an impact in the world among others, and to have meaning in life.

Theism is a pox upon humanity.
Eagle 12 wrote:
Then you will be forgotten as if you were never born.
Yep.

You too.

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#211714 Feb 8, 2014
lightbeamrider wrote:
<quoted text> In Acts Paul preaches to the Greeks and they mock. Kinda puts a damper on early Christians copying from pagan sources since when those sources were informed they responded with ridicule. Paul had no authority to indoctrinate anyone since he was a wandering evangelist. Other than mocking i don't see anything of substance here. It stands to reason if God is the source of all life then resurrection from the dead is no big deal. You are perhaps [?] free to reject those claims. Being dead spiritually perhaps you have no choice but to reject. You only think you do.
It was a joke - you missed the point. The point was that paul's ability to acknowledge and predict the existence of unbelievers doesn't mean anything - you quote him as the very existence of non christians validates paul's prediction - perhaps as an indicator of divinely inspired prescience. Absurd.

Certain christian beliefs, by their nature, are bound to inspire a certain level of skepticism. The christian way is to tell people that they are sinful, guilty - wrong just for being human. Is it surprising that these disgusting pieces of dogma inspire resistance? Is it surprising that paul decided that he was being mocked because his opponents were "spiritually dead?" (as you so charitably referred to me, further proving my point).

I wasn't mocking anyone. I was making the obvious point that the "all nonchristians are spiritually dead, hellblound, and potentially influenced by satan" piece of non logic makes more sense if we think about it as a belief reinforcement mechanism, as opposed to a meaningful prediction.

Since: Oct 10

Location hidden

#211715 Feb 8, 2014
Tide with Beach wrote:
<quoted text>
Are you going tomorrow?
No.

She still doesn't quite get it. She's been in the rotation for a few years. I'm trying to keep my mouth shut. Reality is upon us and one of us just felt the weight of it.

I tried to tell her.

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#211716 Feb 8, 2014
Darwins Stepchild wrote:
<quoted text>
<headdesk>
Ha.

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#211717 Feb 8, 2014
New Age Spiritual Leader wrote:
<quoted text>
Citation please.
For what, the runestone

Here's something that makes it simple - the faker signed it, and attempted to disguise his signature with a cryptogram.

http://scienceblogs.com/aardvarchaeology/2011...

“Öh mans fan vi ved hade ved sten”, or in English,“The Öhmans found. We kept/collected firewood at the stone.”

“… this is not strictly a case of forgery, but of a practical joke gone wrong through the gullibility of others.…Öhman himself may have been both surprised and a little disappointed to find that his hints about who made the inscription were never noted, and as time passed it became successively more difficult for him to confess. After his rune stone gained acceptance in wider circles through skilful marketing by others, it became almost impossible for him to come clean with his honour intact."

Larsson, M.G.. 2010. Vem ristade Kensingtonrunstenen? Saga och sed 2010. Uppsala.

If you want something else, like sources that explain why the language is all wrong and other problems, I'll be happy to provide them, but I think this is quite definitive.

“Life may be sweeter for this”

Since: Nov 08

Fennario

#211718 Feb 8, 2014
KiMare wrote:
The challenge has been to present an authentic prophecy.
I did.
timn17 wrote:
Let's hear this authentic prophecy. I'm crossing my fingers for a prophecy that is both predicted and fulfilled in the bible.
The prophecy he provided was this:

Matthew 16:17-18 (NASB77) 17 And Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18 "And I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades shall not overpower it.

I began a challenge of this material with a series of questions about what he thought of this material prior to explaining why it was trivial, but he declined to answer them.

What makes the prophecy trivial is that it the kind of thing that cults typically predict for themselves, just as Hitler did when he called the Third Reich, which lasted less than a generation, the thousand year reich.

Another problem with that prophecy is that the church has to survive as long as humanity does for it to be fulfilled. Given that the church is presently dying in the parts of the world where it is known, and can be expected to eventually do the same where it is just being introduced, the prediction is likely false.

The other manner in which this like all other biblical prophecy fails to meet the criteria for quality prophecy is that the few predictions in the bible that might be said to be corrects are drowning in a sea of failed predictions.

I have compiled a set of criteria for quality prophecy for this purpose. I would suggest that quality prophecy needs to be specific - that is, detailed and unambiguous. The highest quality prophecy specifying specifics such as time and place.

It also needs to prophecy something unexpected, unlikely or unique, something that could not have been contrived, and something which was not self-fulfilling.

And the prophecies need to be verified, fulfilled completely, predict something that definitely occurred subsequently, and be unaccompanied by failed prophecies.

Scientific prophecy is the only known prophecy to meet these standards. Famous examples of this include [1] Einstein's prediction that the apparent position of a star would be altered by exactly so many radians by grazing by the sun and being bent by its gravity,[2] the prediction that an isotropic cosmic background radiation would be found at a specific wavelength and temperature,[3] that primordial nebulae would comprise hydrogen, helium, lithium and deuterium in specified proportions (Big Bang nucleosynthesis), and most recently,[4] that the Higgs boson would be found at a specified energy and contain particles of a specified mass, charge, spin, etc..

His bible can't touch that.

Time to repost this:“Think of how many religions attempt to validate themselves with prophecy. Think of how many people rely on these prophecies, however vague, however unfulfilled, to support or prop up their beliefs. Yet has there ever been a religion with the prophetic accuracy and reliability of science?”- Carl Sagan

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#211719 Feb 8, 2014
New Age Spiritual Leader wrote:
<quoted text>
More opinions?
Why do you keep referencing the only artifact you "understand", when clearly the series shows of many different sights and relics?
Please provide your citations that also mimics what you express.
What? You quoted the same post twice...
I referenced the runestone once or twice because it was specifically mentioned by you earlier. So, I apologize for staying on topic, I guess?
I just provided you with a citation that neatly exposes the runestone for a fraud. It's not even a good fraud - it was nearly instantly dismissed as a fake by contemporary researchers.
What different relics and sights do you want to talk about? Do you expect me to review the entire show in one topix post? What relic, sight, and/or theory from the show do you find most compelling?
This is why I provided you with a link to a blog whose author writes comprehensive, well researched, well reasoned critiques of AU.

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#211720 Feb 8, 2014
Eagle 12 wrote:
<quoted text>
I mean honestly an atheist teaching a bible study is like an orangutan trying to teach Calculus.
All you can do is what the orangutan does and that’s jump up and down and yell while swinging your arms. Teach us something you know how to do like eating a banana.
You're so witty eagle. Sometimes I find myself wondering how you've made it this far without winning a Darwin Award.

“Life may be sweeter for this”

Since: Nov 08

Fennario

#211721 Feb 8, 2014
lightbeamrider wrote:
<quoted text> The problem is not with prophecy. Rebirth of Israel is fulfilled prophecy. Prophecy is explained away by critics. Israel did not exist from 70AD to 1948. Matthew Henry predicted rebirth of Israel from Ezek 37.
http://biblehub.com/commentaries/mhc/ezekiel/...
37:15-28 This emblem was to show the people, that the Lord would unite Judah and Israel. Christ is the true David, Israel's King of old; and those whom he makes willing in the day of his power, he makes to walk in his judgments, and to keep his statutes. Events yet to come will further explain this prophecy. Nothing has more hindered the success of the gospel than divisions. Let us study to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace; let us seek for Divine grace to keep us from detestable things; and let us pray that all nations may be obedient and happy subjects of the Son of David, that the Lord may be our God, and we may be his people for evermore.
----------
This is around 1714 when Israel did not exist. Predicts rebirth if Israel on the same spot, self rule and undivided. Conditions not since the time of Solomon. Even when prophecy is fulfilled critics minimize and explain away which is exactly what you will do.
That's an example of a self-fulfilling prophecy. The people who caused Israel to reappear in the land surrounding Jerusalem were aware of the prophecy, and were guided and motivated by it.

You've still go the problem of all of the low quality and failed prophecy in the bible, which negate any that night qualify according to the other standards posted above. If I predict the scores of a 100 ballgames, and get three right, am I a prophet?

There was a famous scam run from prison wherein a prisoner sent maybe 1000 letters to people claiming to be a psychic, and needing help from an outsider who could place bets for him. He predicted the outcome of ballgames (as I recall) one way to about 500 people, and the opposite way to the other 500, keeping track of who got which prediction. He repeated this with the 500 that received a correct prediction, and then had about 250 people that he had made two correct predictions in a row.

After two more iterations, he had about 60-something people to whom he had predicted four consecutive outcomes correctly. Four more took him down to about four suckers that saw him make eight predictions correctly in a row, and the rest of the story is foreseeable. These people gladly put up large sums of their own money to bet on his predictions, and sent him half in exchange for another prediction.

The principle he invoked was the absence of failed prophecies for the handful that got eight correct predictions in a row. He understood that people are not impressed with a handful of correct guesses out of dozens or hundreds of tries. Neither are we.

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#211722 Feb 8, 2014
It aint necessarily so wrote:
<quoted text>
<quoted text>
The prophecy he provided was this:
Matthew 16:17-18 (NASB77) 17 And Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18 "And I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades shall not overpower it.
I began a challenge of this material with a series of questions about what he thought of this material prior to explaining why it was trivial, but he declined to answer them.
What makes the prophecy trivial is that it the kind of thing that cults typically predict for themselves, just as Hitler did when he called the Third Reich, which lasted less than a generation, the thousand year reich.
Another problem with that prophecy is that the church has to survive as long as humanity does for it to be fulfilled. Given that the church is presently dying in the parts of the world where it is known, and can be expected to eventually do the same where it is just being introduced, the prediction is likely false.
The other manner in which this like all other biblical prophecy fails to meet the criteria for quality prophecy is that the few predictions in the bible that might be said to be corrects are drowning in a sea of failed predictions.
I have compiled a set of criteria for quality prophecy for this purpose. I would suggest that quality prophecy needs to be specific - that is, detailed and unambiguous. The highest quality prophecy specifying specifics such as time and place.
It also needs to prophecy something unexpected, unlikely or unique, something that could not have been contrived, and something which was not self-fulfilling.
And the prophecies need to be verified, fulfilled completely, predict something that definitely occurred subsequently, and be unaccompanied by failed prophecies.
Scientific prophecy is the only known prophecy to meet these standards. Famous examples of this include [1] Einstein's prediction that the apparent position of a star would be altered by exactly so many radians by grazing by the sun and being bent by its gravity,[2] the prediction that an isotropic cosmic background radiation would be found at a specific wavelength and temperature,[3] that primordial nebulae would comprise hydrogen, helium, lithium and deuterium in specified proportions (Big Bang nucleosynthesis), and most recently,[4] that the Higgs boson would be found at a specified energy and contain particles of a specified mass, charge, spin, etc..
His bible can't touch that.
Time to repost this:“Think of how many religions attempt to validate themselves with prophecy. Think of how many people rely on these prophecies, however vague, however unfulfilled, to support or prop up their beliefs. Yet has there ever been a religion with the prophetic accuracy and reliability of science?”- Carl Sagan
Thanks for the summary. I agree, this prophecy is not very impressive - as you noted, it's generic and not at all unique to christianity, among other problems.

“Life may be sweeter for this”

Since: Nov 08

Fennario

#211723 Feb 8, 2014
lightbeamrider wrote:
. Being dead spiritually perhaps you have no choice but to reject.
How do you define spiritually dead? Not a Christian? What is spirituality to you?

I find that many or most Christians spiritually wounded. Look at Clearwater, who cries about persecution, and expresses the same sense of alienation from the world, from mankind, and from his own flesh that I read in the posts of so many of the faithful. How is it spiritual to consider the world and mankind so damaged and to encourage detachment from it?

Spirituality more than anything else entails a sense of connectivity with the world - of oneness with nature, of awe at its grandeur, and gratitude to be included in it. So many of you seem to have your imaginations redirected to the time after your deaths to a place that probably doesn't exist inhabited by spirits that probably don't exist. Is that what you mean by spiritual?

“What's left to defend?”

Since: Jan 11

Freedom

#211724 Feb 8, 2014
River Tam wrote:
No.
She still doesn't quite get it. She's been in the rotation for a few years. I'm trying to keep my mouth shut. Reality is upon us and one of us just felt the weight of it.
I tried to tell her.
She'll probably become more aware and receptive because of this.

No matter what you do, this is likely a turning point for her.

Let me know if I can be of assistance, okay?

Since: Oct 10

Location hidden

#211725 Feb 9, 2014
Tide with Beach wrote:
<quoted text>
She'll probably become more aware and receptive because of this.
No matter what you do, this is likely a turning point for her.
Let me know if I can be of assistance, okay?
This is more than a turning point in her life. This is the vanishing point.

She's been at that church since birth. She was batpised there. It's a crisis.

I have no say in it. She's going to talk to her pastor. I can't talk her out of it. We can find another church. One that accepts us as we are. She's not willing to accept that, yet.

"I don't understand, I'll never understand but I'll try to understand. There's nothing else I can do." ~ Fiona Apple

“KiMare'a the Monster Mutation”

Since: Nov 10

Location hidden

#211726 Feb 9, 2014
It aint necessarily so wrote:
<quoted text>
<quoted text>
<quoted text>
First, you changed your story from " I simply point out significant contradictions to your claim that the Bible is a worthless book of fiction" to "The challenge has been to present an authentic prophecy." You seem to have confused me with another poster, assuming that anybody actually asked you to provide a prophecy from the bible. Why would anybody? We can find them ourselves. Here's one: "Behold, I am coming soon." - Revelation 22:7
Then you failed to answer several questions, all related to your implication that the words you provided were more than trivial in significance:
[1] How does that support your position? Because Christianity is still around? Do you think that those words make the Christian bible valuable?
[2] Do you consider them quality prophecy, or valuable in any other way?
[3] Do you still think that you produced something of value there, or that you have made the case that your bible is more than what skeptics say it is?
I assume that you had good reasons for evading those questions. We can each speculate what those were.
But since you decline to answer them, I'll answer them for you: No those words do not make the bible valuable, they are not quality prophecy, and you have not made the case that the bible is more than a typical religious book.
Quit whining. I made a general statement about the atheist view on here. The challenge I have always addressed is the idiotic claim that the Bible is a worthless fiction book.

In my original post I addressed the prophecies concerning Israel. Summarized succinctly by God challenging Jews to choose life. That edict has been reflected over the centuries. I used the term 'Alien' in deference to the atheist's bigoted handicap with the word 'God'. As another poster just noted, atheists deny and brush aside every point, or simply avoid facing them.

Your response is a perfect example. A nobody in a subjected country, rejected by his own people, predicted the birth of Christianity. You pretend that is of no account, DESPITE THE FACT THAT CHRISTIANS SIGNIFICANTLY OUTNUMBER ATHEISTS!

Even more interestingly, Jesus makes that claim at the literal location of the Roman/Greek 'gate of hell'. It also was the location of the Temple of Pan. In the very face of the 'wisdom of that age', he made his prophecy. In historical short order, not only were those gods dismissed, but the very power of that time, the Roman Empire was converted!

Perhaps you need to re-examine your definition of 'value'? You focus on things that cannot be, or are difficult to explain. You falsely deny that the Bible contains numerous profound things, which is one reason why it stands distinct in the world of books.

Smile.

“KiMare'a the Monster Mutation”

Since: Nov 10

Location hidden

#211727 Feb 9, 2014
It aint necessarily so wrote:
<quoted text>
Explanations for what? Your assertion that certain biblical passages imply alien visitations? Nobody found your argument compelling. What more did you need?
"Nobody"?

Wow, not just a lie and ignorant, but incredibly narcissistic...

“Life may be sweeter for this”

Since: Nov 08

Fennario

#211729 Feb 9, 2014
KiMare wrote:
Quit whining. I made a general statement about the atheist view on here. The challenge I have always addressed is the idiotic claim that the Bible is a worthless fiction book.
What have you offered as counterevidence apart from the equivalent of horoscopes and fortune cookie fortunes?
KiMare wrote:
In my original post I addressed the prophecies concerning Israel. Summarized succinctly by God challenging Jews to choose life. That edict has been reflected over the centuries.
Did you think that signified something useful or important?
KiMare wrote:
I used the term 'Alien' in deference to the atheist's bigoted handicap with the word 'God'. As another poster just noted, atheists deny and brush aside every point, or simply avoid facing them.
If you're only looking for a word that people won't ridicule, why don't you try "Bigfoot" next time and see if that is received better.
KiMare wrote:
Your response is a perfect example.
I'm a typical rational skeptic. If you are trying to convince us or even just to be taken seriously, you'll need evidence and argument.

“Life may be sweeter for this”

Since: Nov 08

Fennario

#211730 Feb 9, 2014
KiMare wrote:
You falsely deny that the Bible contains numerous profound things,
I haven't seen anything profound in it. You simply insist otherwise.
KiMare wrote:
A nobody in a subjected country, rejected by his own people, predicted the birth of Christianity. You pretend that is of no account, DESPITE THE FACT THAT CHRISTIANS SIGNIFICANTLY OUTNUMBER ATHEISTS!
And I explained to you why that was a trivial prediction, not profound. Somewhere today, somebody will predict the correct lottery numbers. The proper way to understand the significance of that is in the context of all of the other lottery prophets that failed. Every cult that claims to have secret and powerful knowledge or divine favor sees itself as the early Christians did. Some will be correct about their longevity just as some will be correct in their choice of lottery numbers. So what?

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