Thousands Protest Roe V. Wade Decision

Thousands Protest Roe V. Wade Decision

There are 315213 comments on the Newsday story from Jan 22, 2008, titled Thousands Protest Roe V. Wade Decision. In it, Newsday reports that:

Thousands of abortion opponents marched from the National Mall to the Supreme Court on Tuesday in their annual remembrance of the court's Roe v. Wade decision.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at Newsday.

katie

Tacoma, WA

#322114 Feb 17, 2014
Ink wrote:
<quoted text>
I use arguments that I believe in.
'When you do for the least of mankind, you do for Me'
Really, is that so? It would be nice if you would include links with your quotes so everyone can verify your source. This has to be split into two parts.

Part one --
Ink wrote:
<quoted text>
[C]ontrary to articles stating the autopsy report “supported” the diagnosis of “persistent vegetative state (PVS),” a neuropathology expert today was careful to say that PVS is a clinical diagnosis rather than a pathological one. He added that nothing in the autopsy was “inconsistent” with a PVS diagnosis.
"...nothing in the autopsy was “inconsistent” with a PVS diagnosis."

There you have it. The PVS diagnosis is made on a living person, not a dead one during autopsy. During autopsy, when the brain weighs less than half of a normal brain, nothing is "inconsistent with a PVS diagnosis." See how that works, Ink? Your source added nothing new in that paragraph. But, it *seems* they're trying to imply the diagnosis of PVS wasn't quite accurate. And you believed it.
The real elephant in the living room, of course, is whether or not we can really know how conscious anyone labeled “PVS” really is. Several studies have revealed high misdiagnosis rates, with conscious people being mistakenly regarded as totally and irrevocably unaware.
The autopsy also documented significant brain atrophy, and the medical panel called the damage “irreversible.”
This is not the same as saying she had no cognitive ability.
“It’s always seemed to us that PVS isn’t really a diagnosis; it’s a value judgment masquerading as a diagnosis,” said Stephen Drake, research analyst for Not Dead Yet, a national disability rights group that filed three amicus briefs in the case.“When it comes to the hard science, no qualified pathologist went on the record saying she couldn’t think or couldn’t experience her own death through dehydration.”
All the areas of Terri's brain that would make these determinations (being aware of her own death), were liquefied. Liquid, Ink. Terri's brain wasn't capable of determining anything.

You keep saying she wasn't terminal. She was terminal because she wasn't capable of providing herself with nourishment by mouth. An artificial device was surgically installed into her stomach to do for her what she no longer could. Removing that artificial device showed exactly how terminal Terri Schiavo was; hence your outrage.

Where's your outrage for that hospital in San Francisco who allowed a patient ordered by her doctor NEVER to be left alone to wander into a locked stairwell and die of dehydration? She wasn't found for over two weeks and so died in a hospital's locked stairwell fully conscious of her ordeal and "experiencing her own death through dehydration." Even though everything I've read claims this is a peaceful death, where is your outrage over this being allowed to happen anywhere ever?
katie

Tacoma, WA

#322115 Feb 17, 2014
Part two --
Diane Coleman, president and founder of Not Dead Yet, agreed.“The core issues remain the same. Protection of the life and dignity of people under guardianship, and a high standard of proof in removing food and water from a person who can not express their own wishes. These are issues of great concern to the disability community – evidenced by the 26 national disability groups that spoke out in favor of saving Terri Schiavo’s life over the past few years.”
Look at this paragraph trying to imply there wasn't a "high standard of proof" provided throughout Terri's ordeal. And you believe it, you want it to be true. It's not. There's too many court/legal documents and too many hospital/medical documents available for the public's consumption for anyone to claim there wasn't a high standard provided in Terri's on-going care and in her death. You're fighting a battle for the Schindler family, not for Terri.

I looked at the Schindler's foundation website yesterday. It used to ask for people to donate their boats and RVs. Now it asks for people to donate their estates upon death.

Don't you find that greedy? For the Schindlers it's always been about money. They have exploited and capitalized on their daughter's unfortunate collapse and ensuing death. I find that disgusting.

“Blessed Be”

Since: Jun 07

Location hidden

#322116 Feb 17, 2014
Ink wrote:
<quoted text>
[C]ontrary to articles stating the autopsy report “supported” the diagnosis of “persistent vegetative state (PVS),” a neuropathology expert today was careful to say that PVS is a clinical diagnosis rather than a pathological one. He added that nothing in the autopsy was “inconsistent” with a PVS diagnosis.
The real elephant in the living room, of course, is whether or not we can really know how conscious anyone labeled “PVS” really is. Several studies have revealed high misdiagnosis rates, with conscious people being mistakenly regarded as totally and irrevocably unaware.
The autopsy also documented significant brain atrophy, and the medical panel called the damage “irreversible.”
This is not the same as saying she had no cognitive ability.
“It’s always seemed to us that PVS isn’t really a diagnosis; it’s a value judgment masquerading as a diagnosis,” said Stephen Drake, research analyst for Not Dead Yet, a national disability rights group that filed three amicus briefs in the case.“When it comes to the hard science, no qualified pathologist went on the record saying she couldn’t think or couldn’t experience her own death through dehydration.”
Diane Coleman, president and founder of Not Dead Yet, agreed.“The core issues remain the same. Protection of the life and dignity of people under guardianship, and a high standard of proof in removing food and water from a person who can not express their own wishes. These are issues of great concern to the disability community – evidenced by the 26 national disability groups that spoke out in favor of saving Terri Schiavo’s life over the past few years.”
Again, she wasn't JUST in a persistent vegetative state. You continuing to ignore this only proves how desperate you are.

80% of her Cerebral Cortex was GONE. She wasn't conscious, and no general of PVS that doesn't take that lack of upper brain, or the opinion of a research analyst, will change that.

Your desperation is pathetic.
Ink

Bensalem, PA

#322117 Feb 17, 2014
katie wrote:
<quoted text>
So, according to you, God creates/destroys life, but humanity is only allowed to continue life. Is that your argument?
How do you defend that without the inclusion of war, executions, and self-defense?
Induced termination of unwanted/unhealthy pregnancy *is* self-defense.
So where is the logic in your belief? Can't seem to find it.
Do I think humanity should take life without just cause? No.

“Blessed Be”

Since: Jun 07

Location hidden

#322118 Feb 17, 2014
Ink wrote:
<quoted text>
She couldn't see either but that doesn't mean she isn't alive and researchers really don't know how conscious a pvs person is. there are thousands of PVS patients alive now and no one is killing them. I wonder why.
I have never said her body wasn't alive. Stop building strawmen.

Again, she wasn't JUST PVS. That wasn't the only issue, as I've been saying all along.

You stupid cabbage.

“Blessed Be”

Since: Jun 07

Location hidden

#322119 Feb 17, 2014
Ink wrote:
<quoted text>
I use arguments that I believe in.
'When you do for the least of mankind, you do for Me'
Which means that we are free to use YOUR own source against you in argument, to point out the fallacies OF your arguments, even if we don't believe in your source.

YOU are free to continue to cherry pick from your source, indicating that even YOU don't believe in your source, just the parts that you are comfortable with. Once again, you judge everything based upon YOUR comfort level.

“Blessed Be”

Since: Jun 07

Location hidden

#322120 Feb 17, 2014
Ink wrote:
<quoted text>
Do I think humanity should take life without just cause? No.
And, of course, you believe that YOU can determine what is, and what is not, a just cause?

LOL. Like I said, your concern is ONLY for your own feelings, you self-centered pig.
Ink

Bensalem, PA

#322121 Feb 17, 2014
katie wrote:
Part two --
<quoted text>
Look at this paragraph trying to imply there wasn't a "high standard of proof" provided throughout Terri's ordeal. And you believe it, you want it to be true. It's not. There's too many court/legal documents and too many hospital/medical documents available for the public's consumption for anyone to claim there wasn't a high standard provided in Terri's on-going care and in her death. You're fighting a battle for the Schindler family, not for Terri.
I looked at the Schindler's foundation website yesterday. It used to ask for people to donate their boats and RVs. Now it asks for people to donate their estates upon death.
Don't you find that greedy? For the Schindlers it's always been about money. They have exploited and capitalized on their daughter's unfortunate collapse and ensuing death. I find that disgusting.
If you look at their website you will find a list of about 24 doctors who affidavids about Teri that judge Greer ignored. They can all be read.

You can also look into the finances of the Teri Schiavo foundation.
It seems to me that they are fighting the call to readily dispose of people thought not fit to continue living.

----------

Terri Schiavo Life & Hope Network is a 501(c)(3) non-profit organization, registration #CH20037. Your contribution is tax deductible to the extent allowed by law. Any sources soliciting contributions on behalf of Terri Schiavo other than the Terri Schiavo Life & Hope Network are not affiliated or endorsed by this organization or the Schindler family. If you are receiving any contribution requests of this nature, please bring this immediately to our attention. A copy of the official registration and financial information may be obtained from the Division of Consumer Services by calling toll-free within the state (1.800.435.7352).
Ink

Bensalem, PA

#322122 Feb 17, 2014
Bitner wrote:
<quoted text>
And, of course, you believe that YOU can determine what is, and what is not, a just cause?
LOL. Like I said, your concern is ONLY for your own feelings, you self-centered pig.
Your rudeness should send Playa into delirium.
Ink

Bensalem, PA

#322123 Feb 17, 2014
Bitner wrote:
<quoted text>
Which means that we are free to use YOUR own source against you in argument, to point out the fallacies OF your arguments, even if we don't believe in your source.
YOU are free to continue to cherry pick from your source, indicating that even YOU don't believe in your source, just the parts that you are comfortable with. Once again, you judge everything based upon YOUR comfort level.
Are you the belief Nazi now?
Ink

Bensalem, PA

#322124 Feb 17, 2014
Bitner wrote:
<quoted text>
I have never said her body wasn't alive. Stop building strawmen.
Again, she wasn't JUST PVS. That wasn't the only issue, as I've been saying all along.
You stupid cabbage.
Her body, mind and soul were alive even if damaged. She wasn't brain dead.
katie

Tacoma, WA

#322125 Feb 17, 2014
Topix won't let me post a C&P from "terrisfightdotorg".

Anyone doubting, go to the site, click on the donations tab, and read it for yourself. "Planned Giving: The primary reason people give for leaving a gift to charity at death is because they were asked. If you have an estate, you may want to consider an organization who will receive your gift after you die. We would prayerfully ask you to consider this gift to the Terri Schiavo Life & Hope Network in your will."

Yeah, "...because they were asked..." So simple.

:-/
katie

Kent, WA

#322126 Feb 17, 2014
Ink wrote:
<quoted text>
If you look at their website you will find a list of about 24 doctors who affidavids about Teri that judge Greer ignored. They can all be read.
You can also look into the finances of the Teri Schiavo foundation.
It seems to me that they are fighting the call to readily dispose of people thought not fit to continue living.
----------
Terri Schiavo Life & Hope Network is a 501(c)(3) non-profit organization, registration #CH20037. Your contribution is tax deductible to the extent allowed by law. Any sources soliciting contributions on behalf of Terri Schiavo other than the Terri Schiavo Life & Hope Network are not affiliated or endorsed by this organization or the Schindler family. If you are receiving any contribution requests of this nature, please bring this immediately to our attention. A copy of the official registration and financial information may be obtained from the Division of Consumer Services by calling toll-free within the state (1.800.435.7352).
How many of those 24 doctors observed Terri in person? How many actually put hands on her? I'm thinking none. Maybe that's why Judge Greer didn't allow those affidavits. Ever consider that? What would be gained if Judge Greer had allowed in those affidavits? Different opinions from people who'd never seen Terri in person? Wasn't there enough of that going on already?
Ink

Bensalem, PA

#322127 Feb 17, 2014
Bitner wrote:
<quoted text>
Again, she wasn't JUST in a persistent vegetative state. You continuing to ignore this only proves how desperate you are.
80% of her Cerebral Cortex was GONE. She wasn't conscious, and no general of PVS that doesn't take that lack of upper brain, or the opinion of a research analyst, will change that.
Your desperation is pathetic.
I read the autopsy report like many others have and the final sentence of the neuropathy report from Teri's autopsy as written by the Chief Medical Examiner, Stephen Nelson reads;

"Neuropathic examination alone of the decedent's brain or any brain for that matter cannot prove or disprove a diagnosis of Persistant Vegetative State or minimally conscious state."

They should have checked with you.
Ink

Bensalem, PA

#322128 Feb 17, 2014
katie wrote:
<quoted text>
How many of those 24 doctors observed Terri in person? How many actually put hands on her? I'm thinking none. Maybe that's why Judge Greer didn't allow those affidavits. Ever consider that? What would be gained if Judge Greer had allowed in those affidavits? Different opinions from people who'd never seen Terri in person? Wasn't there enough of that going on already?
The first one listed is Dr Jay Carpenter, seeing Teri on 2/13/2000, he descrbes her as responsive among other things.

Do you want me to do the whole list?

“YUC YUC”

Since: Feb 14

Location hidden

#322129 Feb 17, 2014
Hmmm
katie

Kent, WA

#322130 Feb 17, 2014
Ink wrote:
<quoted text>
I read the autopsy report like many others have and the final sentence of the neuropathy report from Teri's autopsy as written by the Chief Medical Examiner, Stephen Nelson reads;
"Neuropathic examination alone of the decedent's brain or any brain for that matter cannot prove or disprove a diagnosis of Persistant Vegetative State or minimally conscious state."
They should have checked with you.
Right. The patient needs to be observed as well as examined. Observed over a long period of time. Like Dr. Wolfson had done.
katie

Kent, WA

#322131 Feb 17, 2014
Ink wrote:
<quoted text>
The first one listed is Dr Jay Carpenter, seeing Teri on 2/13/2000, he descrbes her as responsive among other things.
Do you want me to do the whole list?
No. Was Dr. Jay Carpenter the only one of those 24 doctors to actually observe Mrs. Schiavo. Do you know? What I know is he observed her for a whopping 45 minutes. He did not, however, examine her.

Now the last guardian ad litem, Dr. Wolfson, observed Mrs. Schiavo for extended periods of time. "In doing this, I spent close to 30 days visiting with Terri each day -- for as long as 4 hours each day, including visits with her parents and her husband."

<snip>

"After spending hours with Terri, getting to know her parents and siblings and her husband, and reviewing all of the evidence, my conclusion was that the competent medical evidence provided in the the case, following the Florida rules of civil procedure and evidence, and according to the Guardianship law in Florida, which was carefully crafted over fifteen years of bipartisan political and religious efforts --- indicated by clear and convincing evidence that she was in a persistent vegetative state, according to the most credible science and medicine. I also concluded that based on the same Florida laws and rules, the trier of fact appropriately determined that Terri had expressed, while she was competent, the intention never to be kept artificially alive under such circumstances. The evidence supporting this included competent legal evidence demonstrating that she personally expressed those intentions at the funerals of two family members who had been on life support -- so it was contextual. Due to the conflict between the parties, I suggested that additional testing could and should be done but ONLY if the parties agreed in advance as to how the results would be used. We almost came to agreement on this option, but for legal reasons, one of the parties pulled out on the last minute."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles...

Guess Dr. Wolfson should've checked with you first, huh, Ink?
Ink

Bensalem, PA

#322132 Feb 17, 2014
katie wrote:
<quoted text>
No. Was Dr. Jay Carpenter the only one of those 24 doctors to actually observe Mrs. Schiavo. Do you know? What I know is he observed her for a whopping 45 minutes. He did not, however, examine her.
Now the last guardian ad litem, Dr. Wolfson, observed Mrs. Schiavo for extended periods of time. "In doing this, I spent close to 30 days visiting with Terri each day -- for as long as 4 hours each day, including visits with her parents and her husband."
<snip>
"After spending hours with Terri, getting to know her parents and siblings and her husband, and reviewing all of the evidence, my conclusion was that the competent medical evidence provided in the the case, following the Florida rules of civil procedure and evidence, and according to the Guardianship law in Florida, which was carefully crafted over fifteen years of bipartisan political and religious efforts --- indicated by clear and convincing evidence that she was in a persistent vegetative state, according to the most credible science and medicine. I also concluded that based on the same Florida laws and rules, the trier of fact appropriately determined that Terri had expressed, while she was competent, the intention never to be kept artificially alive under such circumstances. The evidence supporting this included competent legal evidence demonstrating that she personally expressed those intentions at the funerals of two family members who had been on life support -- so it was contextual. Due to the conflict between the parties, I suggested that additional testing could and should be done but ONLY if the parties agreed in advance as to how the results would be used. We almost came to agreement on this option, but for legal reasons, one of the parties pulled out on the last minute."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles...
Guess Dr. Wolfson should've checked with you first, huh, Ink?
Why did he think additional testing was needed?
Ink

Bensalem, PA

#322133 Feb 17, 2014
katie wrote:
<quoted text>
No. Was Dr. Jay Carpenter the only one of those 24 doctors to actually observe Mrs. Schiavo. Do you know? What I know is he observed her for a whopping 45 minutes. He did not, however, examine her.
Now the last guardian ad litem, Dr. Wolfson, observed Mrs. Schiavo for extended periods of time. "In doing this, I spent close to 30 days visiting with Terri each day -- for as long as 4 hours each day, including visits with her parents and her husband."
<snip>
"After spending hours with Terri, getting to know her parents and siblings and her husband, and reviewing all of the evidence, my conclusion was that the competent medical evidence provided in the the case, following the Florida rules of civil procedure and evidence, and according to the Guardianship law in Florida, which was carefully crafted over fifteen years of bipartisan political and religious efforts --- indicated by clear and convincing evidence that she was in a persistent vegetative state, according to the most credible science and medicine. I also concluded that based on the same Florida laws and rules, the trier of fact appropriately determined that Terri had expressed, while she was competent, the intention never to be kept artificially alive under such circumstances. The evidence supporting this included competent legal evidence demonstrating that she personally expressed those intentions at the funerals of two family members who had been on life support -- so it was contextual. Due to the conflict between the parties, I suggested that additional testing could and should be done but ONLY if the parties agreed in advance as to how the results would be used. We almost came to agreement on this option, but for legal reasons, one of the parties pulled out on the last minute."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles...
Guess Dr. Wolfson should've checked with you first, huh, Ink?
I read that an MRI wasn't done because of the stimulateor in her braim and Wolfson said it was. Also why didn't Michael want swallowing tests done that Wolfson thought should be done especially when the nurses said she had eaten jello?

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