Thousands Protest Roe V. Wade Decision

Thousands Protest Roe V. Wade Decision

There are 317610 comments on the Newsday story from Jan 22, 2008, titled Thousands Protest Roe V. Wade Decision. In it, Newsday reports that:

Thousands of abortion opponents marched from the National Mall to the Supreme Court on Tuesday in their annual remembrance of the court's Roe v. Wade decision.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at Newsday.

katie

Tacoma, WA

#318335 Dec 14, 2013
worships reality wrote:
<quoted text>
careful. remember what happens when you try to be clever.
anyway the issue was bitner actually "denying" she said that schiavo did "not" starve to death. so if your intent was to defend her somehow, you missed the mark, again.
can you get anything right ?
Where do you get that idea? Mrs. Schiavo's death was caused by dehydration. Not starvation. Both Bitner and I said that yesterday. I provided a quote from CNN showing that. Bitner never denied stating Mrs. Schiavo did NOT starve because she did NOT starve to death.

You're not as good at this deception as you seem to believe you are.
No Relativism

Pittsburgh, PA

#318336 Dec 14, 2013
_Bad Axe wrote:
<quoted text>So didn't you just agree that what I said was how it happened but you twisted how your response should have been interpreted? Your response wasnít about whether or not you were offended but rather that you agreed that a fetus was a "useless wad of cells". You like to call people intellectually dishonest yet you canít even be honest about things you admit you have posted here? What is that?
Bad Axe: "So didn't you just agree that what I said was how it happened but you twisted how your response should have been interpreted? Your response wasnít about whether or not you were offended but rather that you agreed that a fetus was a "useless wad of cells". You like to call people intellectually dishonest yet you canít even be honest about things you admit you have posted here? What is that?"

Katie: "What I do know is I had no trouble with Chicky referring to an embryo/fetus as "a useless wad of cells" because other people's phrases/expressions don't affect me. Guess I have a thick skin and an ability to let things roll off -- sticks and stones and all that jazz."
__________

Not only does Katie not have a problem with "a useless wad of cells" herself, but she spoke for everyone.

My next post will lay out the context where Katie posted ( http://www.topix.com/forum/news/abortion/T833... )...

"No, I don't think calling fetuses in general "a useless wad of cells" is belittling to anyone."
No Relativism

Chicago, IL

#318337 Dec 14, 2013
Part I:

Brilliant Chicky wrote: "Another woman just aborted another useless wad of cells."

Badaxe responded: Now see, here is another example of your contradictions. I got you talking about your daughters pregnancy, and you admitted you had a name for the fetus, and you said he was going to play for the Red Socks, short stop, as I recall. Then when I asked how a "useless clump of cells" could play baseball, you blew up and have been ranting at me every since. It's funny how you think that everyone else's fetus is just a "useless clump of cells", yet your daughter's had a name, and a real future in the MLB? Do you see any hypocrisy there? http://www.topix.com/forum/news/abortion/T833...

Chicky: "I didn't say he would play for the Yankees BEFORE birth, when he was in fact a useless wad of cells."
http://www.topix.com/forum/news/abortion/T833...
__________
__________

Part II:

[Chicky changes avi to a picture of a couple grandkids]

PBFA: "Good to see you. The babies look wonderful, Chicky."
http://www.topix.com/forum/news/abortion/T833...

Chicky: "Thanks about the babies, PBFA. There is another one on the way!"
http://www.topix.com/forum/news/abortion/T833...

[Chicky was called out by several posters on her statement "another one is on the way" in light of her past characterization of those in the womb as "useless wads of cells." Chicky subsequently attempted to clarify her statement...]

Chicky: "So to recap: I never said there IS a baby. I said there is another "ONE ON THE WAY". Before birth fetus IS actually a useless wad of cells."
http://www.topix.com/forum/news/abortion/T833...

[Chicky's "explanation" brought Bad Axe into the conversation]

Badaxe: Anyone who belittles the significance of abortion belittles their own "intellectual" arguments.

Katie V.: Who here is "belittling" the significance of abortion?http://www.topix.com/ forum/news/abortion/T833PCEP80 MM49OU9/post232633

Bad Axe: "So you dont think calling a developing human fetus a useless wad of cells is belittling the significance of what it is? Or you dont think that joking that "oops, there goes another abortion" is inappropriate?"
http://www.topix.com/forum/news/abortion/T833...

Katie: No, I don't think calling fetuses in general "a useless wad of cells" is belittling to anyone. Especially when said woman has carried her own pregnancy and observed her daughter while pregnant. The fact that Chicky loves her grandchildren and announced there is another on the way shows she understands the difference between fact and fantasy. And until a healthy birth, any thoughts of baby is fantasy (excepting gender if known).
http://www.topix.com/forum/news/abortion/T833...
katie

Tacoma, WA

#318338 Dec 14, 2013
realkatie wrote:
<quoted text>
No, I don't think calling fetuses in general "a useless wad of cells" is belittling to anyone. Especially when said woman has carried her own pregnancy and observed her daughter while pregnant. The fact that Chicky loves her grandchildren and announced there is another on the way shows she understands the difference between fact and fantasy. And until a healthy birth, any thoughts of baby is fantasy (excepting gender if known).
Also, I didn't think it was inappropriate for Chicky to point out another abortion took place and not a single PL here was aware of it. Other than their repetitive claim 4k abortions happen daily, what personal knowledge do they have of anyone, strangers, aborting an unwanted or unhealthy pregnancy?
I could see where some folk would not understand Chicky's, but I understand her and I call her friend even if you don't.
http://www.topix.com/forum/news/abortion/T833...

I said back in April 2012, "No, I don't think calling fetuses in general "a useless wad of cells" is belittling to anyone."

And I stand by that statement. I don't think it's belittling to anyone and if people are overly sensitive to this, they need to grow a thicker skin, imo.

You, NR, have done much worse than this phrase that I didn't make, but my opinion of it was asked, so I answered.

Now do you and BA want to tell me again how terrible it was of me to claim I didn't think it was belittling to anyone (or to the abortion issue)?

I await your (non)constructive criticisms.
katie

Tacoma, WA

#318339 Dec 14, 2013
And thanks, NR, for digging these up. That was swell!
sassyjm

Cresskill, NJ

#318341 Dec 14, 2013
katie wrote:
<quoted text>
http://www.topix.com/forum/news/abortion/T833...
I said back in April 2012, "No, I don't think calling fetuses in general "a useless wad of cells" is belittling to anyone."
And I stand by that statement. I don't think it's belittling to anyone and if people are overly sensitive to this, they need to grow a thicker skin, imo.
You, NR, have done much worse than this phrase that I didn't make, but my opinion of it was asked, so I answered.
Now do you and BA want to tell me again how terrible it was of me to claim I didn't think it was belittling to anyone (or to the abortion issue)?
I await your (non)constructive criticisms.
You had a son that you named Aaron. He died while still in utero. Was he a useless wad of cells? No,I don't think so. He was your developing child and I find it hard to believe that you don't think that referring to him as a useless wad of cells isn't belittling to him or the memory of him.

It's not about being overly sensitive,it is about having and showing respect for anothers life.
sassyjm

Cresskill, NJ

#318342 Dec 14, 2013
No Relativism wrote:
Part I:
Brilliant Chicky wrote: "Another woman just aborted another useless wad of cells."
Badaxe responded: Now see, here is another example of your contradictions. I got you talking about your daughters pregnancy, and you admitted you had a name for the fetus, and you said he was going to play for the Red Socks, short stop, as I recall. Then when I asked how a "useless clump of cells" could play baseball, you blew up and have been ranting at me every since. It's funny how you think that everyone else's fetus is just a "useless clump of cells", yet your daughter's had a name, and a real future in the MLB? Do you see any hypocrisy there? http://www.topix.com/forum/news/abortion/T833...
Chicky: "I didn't say he would play for the Yankees BEFORE birth, when he was in fact a useless wad of cells."
http://www.topix.com/forum/news/abortion/T833...
__________
__________
Part II:
[Chicky changes avi to a picture of a couple grandkids]
PBFA: "Good to see you. The babies look wonderful, Chicky."
http://www.topix.com/forum/news/abortion/T833...
Chicky: "Thanks about the babies, PBFA. There is another one on the way!"
http://www.topix.com/forum/news/abortion/T833...
[Chicky was called out by several posters on her statement "another one is on the way" in light of her past characterization of those in the womb as "useless wads of cells." Chicky subsequently attempted to clarify her statement...]
Chicky: "So to recap: I never said there IS a baby. I said there is another "ONE ON THE WAY". Before birth fetus IS actually a useless wad of cells."
http://www.topix.com/forum/news/abortion/T833...
[Chicky's "explanation" brought Bad Axe into the conversation]
Badaxe: Anyone who belittles the significance of abortion belittles their own "intellectual" arguments.
Katie V.: Who here is "belittling" the significance of abortion?http://www.topix.com/ forum/news/abortion/T833PCEP80 MM49OU9/post232633
Bad Axe: "So you dont think calling a developing human fetus a useless wad of cells is belittling the significance of what it is? Or you dont think that joking that "oops, there goes another abortion" is inappropriate?"
http://www.topix.com/forum/news/abortion/T833...
Katie: No, I don't think calling fetuses in general "a useless wad of cells" is belittling to anyone. Especially when said woman has carried her own pregnancy and observed her daughter while pregnant. The fact that Chicky loves her grandchildren and announced there is another on the way shows she understands the difference between fact and fantasy. And until a healthy birth, any thoughts of baby is fantasy (excepting gender if known).
http://www.topix.com/forum/news/abortion/T833...
I remember that conversation where Chicky anounced another baby on the way. That useless wad of cells suddenly turned into a baby/grandchild which Chicky was so excitedly awaiting. I bet Chicky jumped for joy at the news that a granddaughter was going to join the others. I bet she was with her daughter during the sonogram and even requested a copy to put on her fridge door. She probably told her friends at work that a new granddaughter was on her way and that she got to feel her kicking as she put her hand on her daughters big pregnant belly. P was so excited to hear the news. EVERYONE as I recall,congratulated her and show such joy.

*sigh* they live such lives of deception.
sassyjm

Cresskill, NJ

#318343 Dec 14, 2013
katie wrote:
<quoted text>
Most people don't like it when their hypocrisy is pointed out. They will, in most cases, do anything to divert attention away from it. Especially point their fingers outward, toward the one highlighting their hypocrisy. Am thinking you knew this, though.
I believe the underlying message of the PLM is punishment. They don't give much consideration to the growing infant/toddler/child; especially when the first financial cuts happen at WIC and SNAP (foodstamps).
To go even further under the surface, I believe the underlying message from the Religious Right (financially backing the PLM) is that women *are* property. Their virginity is a commodity. And if it isn't, then their resulting embryos/fetuses should be a commodity saved for adoption into Christian families that cannot have their own children -- completely overlooking God's role in this because He may not *want* infertile couples to have their own children for reasons only He knows.
But people caught up in the PLM will scoff at this, point their fingers outward to the messenger, and ignore the message. All while believing abortion for rape can be approved (in some, not all, cases), but not for consensual sex. Never for that. Tsk tsk.
I agree with your first paragraph.

The second one is just silly. Nobody wants to punish anyone. What we want in a civilized society is for people to take responsibility for their actions. Learn some self-control. If you can't take responsibility for your actions,then perhaps you need to to grow up. Life choices have consequences. The natural result of sex is pregnancy. That is how we all came to be. That act is not a game. It is a pleasurable act that God intended for a married couple to show love and bonding..then to procreate at Gods will. That is not a punishment. It is nature. Perhaps an umarried couple shouldn't be sleeping together sharing such an intimate act with each other if they have no intentions of staying together or procreating. All I hear is women and young girls who end up alone after they get pregnant. If you asked them prior to the pregnancy,they'd try to justify their sleeping around. They wouldn't tell you that they were booty calling for some horny guy who they know would never stick by them if they got a disease or pregnant.

I think that it is amazing how you make prolifers the bad guys when we are the ones who want women to respect themselves and their bodies, AND to not punish their developing child by having them executed in the womb because you aren't ready to mother them. I guess you need to use us as a scapegoat for your irresponsible behavior.

Morgana 9

“And the Horse You Rode in On”

Since: Sep 08

Minneapolis

#318344 Dec 14, 2013
worships reality wrote:
<quoted text>
she asked for a show of hands from those pc who shudder when they're told she is on their side. good one. lol !
<quoted text>
she is rarely correct and bad axe is right on the money.
<quoted text>
to you if a man breathes he is a controlling male. why do you hate men so much ?
<quoted text>
bad axe was very clear in making the similar point that most pl make who support the right to abortion in cases of rape, and that is that forcing the woman to gestate a fetus conceived by such an act of violence would constitute a legitimate health and possibly even life risk and therefore abortion in that case represents a real and legitimate case of self defense.
a fetus conceived in a consensual sex act who subsequently poses a md verified life risk is also just as human as a fetus that doesn't represent such a risk yet roe v wade correctly and rightfully allows for post viability abortion in those cases.
Oh WHATEVER!! SHE KNOWS that I am 100% in her favor!

What's the matter punky, getting your xsmall briefs in a bunch when women recognize control freak men? Bad Breath is a control freak and a hypocrite. Fetuses do not matter nor do they have equal value to him, he simply wishes to control women. That is why he breaks down HIS will where HE wants.

I know 2 women who were raped one wanted and cherished her pregnancy the other aborted. It was up to them....just like every pregnancy. Would you be willing to force every woman/girl to abort a pregnancy conceived in rape sense YOU consider it a health and possibly even life risk? AGAIN....every pregnancy can fall under that definition. What about the woman/girl who has an unwanted pregnancy and might kill herself if forced to gestate? There have been and will continue to be cases like that. SO AGAIN...who the fck are YOU to decide? YOU are nothing but a CONTROL FREAK! Get over yourself!!
sassyjm

Cresskill, NJ

#318345 Dec 14, 2013
cpeter1313 wrote:
If a fetus isn't useless, it must be useful. How is a fetus useful?
<quoted text>
A fetus is a human in that stage of life. He/She is alive and developing. Mom and Dads approval is not what gives that fetus child its worth. How many people do you know that have parents who are total A-holes? They treat their so called wanted or planned children like second class citizens. Quite a few of my childrens friends as well as my own, have parents that they have no relationships with. Seems like selfish,self-centered parents is the norm these days. I can't even comprehend such a thing. My own husband had parents who couldn't have cared less about anyone but themselves.

So,tell me,does this also mean that they are useless?

Wanted doesn't equate to be useful.
sassyjm

Cresskill, NJ

#318346 Dec 14, 2013
katie wrote:
<quoted text>
Where do you get that idea? Mrs. Schiavo's death was caused by dehydration. Not starvation. Both Bitner and I said that yesterday. I provided a quote from CNN showing that. Bitner never denied stating Mrs. Schiavo did NOT starve because she did NOT starve to death.
You're not as good at this deception as you seem to believe you are.
She may have officially died of dehydration but let's face it,she was being starved to death as well. It could have been starvation as well.

All because she wasn't wanted by her husband. He certainly didn't take his vows seriously(for better or worse, in sickness and in health).

:(

Wonder what his new wife will do when he is sick and has lost interest. Oopsy!
sassyjm

Cresskill, NJ

#318347 Dec 14, 2013
Morgana 9 wrote:
<quoted text>
Oh WHATEVER!! SHE KNOWS that I am 100% in her favor!
What's the matter punky, getting your xsmall briefs in a bunch when women recognize control freak men? Bad Breath is a control freak and a hypocrite. Fetuses do not matter nor do they have equal value to him, he simply wishes to control women. That is why he breaks down HIS will where HE wants.
I know 2 women who were raped one wanted and cherished her pregnancy the other aborted. It was up to them....just like every pregnancy. Would you be willing to force every woman/girl to abort a pregnancy conceived in rape sense YOU consider it a health and possibly even life risk? AGAIN....every pregnancy can fall under that definition. What about the woman/girl who has an unwanted pregnancy and might kill herself if forced to gestate? There have been and will continue to be cases like that. SO AGAIN...who the fck are YOU to decide? YOU are nothing but a CONTROL FREAK! Get over yourself!!
The child that was "wanted and cherished" went on to live his/her life. Mom didn't punish him/her for the vicious attack on her by his/her father. The other baby was a victim of that rape as well as the mother. How sad that one man victimized two.
Again, our self worth is not determined by whether or not mom and dad wants us OR how we were conceived. We deserve the right to our lives despite how we got here.
FTR,most abortions are done out of convenience(healthy mom,healthy developing child)and not from rape or mom dying.
Another thing I hear alot is how the girl was abandoned by this abusive man when she was pregnant. Tell me,why was she having sex with such a person?
sassyjm

Cresskill, NJ

#318348 Dec 14, 2013
Grown71 wrote:
<quoted text>
What rights do women loose?
What about the women who decide they don't want to continue when they are 9 months into the pregnancy? Do they get punished for just because they waited a little to long?
Why are most women Forced to continue at later stages?
Perhaps to be right - we should allow abortion up to six months after birth. Most will know if they are gonna be able to make it by then. Perhaps no limit?
Parents should have a right to do as they please with their child.
They don't care about fighting for women to be able to electively abort after their limited time frame. THOSE women apparently don't get to make their own choices. THEY are forced to gestate. MOST of these women/men are not pro-choice after all.

And what makes women who kill their unwanted newborn or 3 yr olds,wrong? They don't want their child NOR do they want anyone else to have them(just like the ones who don't want to adopt out their child after birth).

They are slipping off their own hypocritical slippery slopes and they don't even see it.

“Blessed Be”

Since: Jun 07

Location hidden

#318349 Dec 14, 2013
sassyjm wrote:
<quoted text> They don't care about fighting for women to be able to electively abort after their limited time frame. THOSE women apparently don't get to make their own choices. THEY are forced to gestate. MOST of these women/men are not pro-choice after all.
And what makes women who kill their unwanted newborn or 3 yr olds,wrong? They don't want their child NOR do they want anyone else to have them(just like the ones who don't want to adopt out their child after birth).
They are slipping off their own hypocritical slippery slopes and they don't even see it.
LOL, you failed to notice who he was replying to, didn't you?

Where is my hypocrisy? Do please point it out.
sassyjm

Cresskill, NJ

#318350 Dec 14, 2013
Long Night Moon 13 wrote:
<quoted text>
Morals are not universal or concrete. You can't honestly believe everyone is living with the exact same set of morals as everyone else.
Well then why do we have people labeled as "criminals" when they live by their moral codes? Say for instance a woman who kills her newborn or older child when they are unwanted? They feel as a mother,that it is the best moral solution. They obviously don't want to have anyone else raise that child. You may think that it is wrong and evil,but apparently,they don't. WHO is right? WHO should be the deciding factor here? You or the mother of that child?

You can play this game til the cows come home but we all know right from wrong. Harming or killing another is wrong regardless of our circumstances or reasons as to *why*.
katie

Tacoma, WA

#318351 Dec 14, 2013
sassyjm wrote:
<quoted text> You had a son that you named Aaron. He died while still in utero. Was he a useless wad of cells? No,I don't think so. He was your developing child and I find it hard to believe that you don't think that referring to him as a useless wad of cells isn't belittling to him or the memory of him.
It's not about being overly sensitive,it is about having and showing respect for anothers life.
I didn't post it. Chicky posted it. There was context wrapped around it. There's more context wrapped around my post. Such as the difference between fact and fantasy. Aaron didn't survive. That is fact. Anything else is fantasy. I grieved for what might have been and really appreciated what is/was at the time. Completely healthy.

As I've said, if people find referring to a ZEF as a "useless wad of cells" they need to grow a thicker skin. Chicky didn't disrespect her grandchildren, she knew the difference between fact and fantasy -- which is the context of that long ago conversation from April 2012.

If you want to believe there's no "respect for another's life" go right ahead. You already believe that anyway about PCers because you can't/don't/won't understand the concept behind women's civil rights. That they don't "hate" or "plan to maliciously murder" the ZEF when abortion is the right choice for them.
katie

Tacoma, WA

#318352 Dec 14, 2013
sassyjm wrote:
<quoted text> Well then why do we have people labeled as "criminals" when they live by their moral codes? Say for instance a woman who kills her newborn or older child when they are unwanted? They feel as a mother,that it is the best moral solution. They obviously don't want to have anyone else raise that child. You may think that it is wrong and evil,but apparently,they don't. WHO is right? WHO should be the deciding factor here? You or the mother of that child?
You can play this game til the cows come home but we all know right from wrong. Harming or killing another is wrong regardless of our circumstances or reasons as to *why*.
Are the Muslim morals of blaming rape victims for their own violations moralistic to you? It is to them. That's why they punsh rape victims and believe they've brought shame onto their families. They totally excuse the rapist. It's as if they believe he couldn't help himself.

Do you think that's moralistic? They do. Their society does. Their religious gov't. does. And their laws are based on it. We would call the rapists criminals, though. They don't.

Morgana 9

“And the Horse You Rode in On”

Since: Sep 08

Minneapolis

#318353 Dec 14, 2013
sassyjm wrote:
<quoted text> The child that was "wanted and cherished" went on to live his/her life. Mom didn't punish him/her for the vicious attack on her by his/her father. The other baby was a victim of that rape as well as the mother. How sad that one man victimized two.
Again, our self worth is not determined by whether or not mom and dad wants us OR how we were conceived. We deserve the right to our lives despite how we got here.
FTR,most abortions are done out of convenience(healthy mom,healthy developing child)and not from rape or mom dying.
Another thing I hear alot is how the girl was abandoned by this abusive man when she was pregnant. Tell me,why was she having sex with such a person?
Hey...tell it to your other "pro life" friends like Bad Breath and Worships my Ass who believe in the right to choice considering rape, incest, life and health of the mother. Argue with them...they claim to be "prolife". I am prochoice, the woman chooses no matter the circumstances as SHE is the one who is at risk.

How stupid are you...how many stories would you like me to tell you since you obviously live in a bubble?
sassyjm wrote:
<quoted text>
Another thing I hear alot is how the girl was abandoned by this abusive man when she was pregnant. Tell me,why was she having sex with such a person?
First example:

Friend of mine and a good one married a military guy who was sent to Vietnam. They had two children. When he came back things were good for awhile.....then he became abusive VERY abusive.....took off and went to Mexico where he hooked up with another woman who he got pregnant.

Now you tell me...how the FCK was she suppose to know any of this would happen?

You certainly are a naive clueless bytch blaming the woman as usual. Bet you blame the rape victim too, thats why you wish to force her to gestate.
katie

Tacoma, WA

#318354 Dec 14, 2013
sassyjm wrote:
<quoted text> She may have officially died of dehydration but let's face it,she was being starved to death as well. It could have been starvation as well.
All because she wasn't wanted by her husband. He certainly didn't take his vows seriously(for better or worse, in sickness and in health).
:(
Wonder what his new wife will do when he is sick and has lost interest. Oopsy!
If you put your histrionics aside, you'd be able to see objectively. Michael Schiavo loved his first wife. He went way above and beyond in trying to help her recover when no recovery was possible. And so he made sure she was maintained better than could be expected. All she could be was maintained.

As I've said plenty of times, a baby born the same day Mrs. Schiavo became incapacitated would be learning how to drive by the time her feeding tube was removed.

What had Mrs. Schiavo been able to do during those 15yrs of incapacitation? Besides being her birth family's life-size Barbie Doll, a source of income for them and a talking piece for the PLM?

The Schindlers weren't even equipped for taking care of their daughter/sister at home because when they had that opportunity, they left all the physical work to Mr. Schiavo and then sent her back by ambulance because they were unable to do it themselves.

When Mr. Schindler was on his deathbed, he did not want any extraordinary measures taken to prolong his life. He either learned or was so selfish as to want his last wishes followed even as he forsake his daughter's last wishes -- which was not to be kept alive by artificial means.

Whatever Mr. Schiavo and the 2nd Mrs. Schiavo do with their end of life wishes, I'm sure nobody will hear about it on the national news.

“Blessed Be”

Since: Jun 07

Location hidden

#318355 Dec 14, 2013
sassyjm wrote:
<quoted text> Well then why do we have people labeled as "criminals" when they live by their moral codes? Say for instance a woman who kills her newborn or older child when they are unwanted? They feel as a mother,that it is the best moral solution. They obviously don't want to have anyone else raise that child. You may think that it is wrong and evil,but apparently,they don't. WHO is right? WHO should be the deciding factor here? You or the mother of that child?
You can play this game til the cows come home but we all know right from wrong. Harming or killing another is wrong regardless of our circumstances or reasons as to *why*.
We have criminals because we have laws. Laws, unlike morals, are objective. They are not based on any one moral code BECAUSE morals are subjective, and relative to the person/group holding them. We have laws to govern an entire society, not just one segment of it, and so our laws reflect what society sees as acts that should be illegal. It's called consensus.

That's what you people just don't get, that laws and morals are not the same thing at all.

Morals are subjective. The fact that you and I agree that an act is immoral (and despite Ink's disbelief, you and I DO hold some of those things in common), doesn't make that an absolute. It just means that particular act is immoral to both of us. And just because two people (or groups) think an act is immoral, doesn't mean it MUST be declared illegal. And there is a third choice, too, people for whom the act is neutral. And just because an act that YOU hold to be immoral is ALSO declared illegal, does NOT mean that law is based upon YOUR moral code.

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