Tom Brady is Overrated

Full story: Dr. U 10,030
Tom Brady of the New England Patriots is the most overrated quarterback in the NFL. Full Story
Mensa 7

Cypress, CA

#10413 Aug 20, 2013
flbadcatowner wrote:
<quoted text>You focus on one year which was the exception to the rule where Brady generally had much better defenses backing up his play on offense.
To make it easy for all (the unbiased) to understand. What is a QBs main purpose? Answer...score as many points as possible.
So, find out who scores the most points and you got your better offensive weapon (and QB).
Despite having worse receivers throughout his career, Brady has scored more. I believe it has a lot to do with his not throwing INTs at the same clip as other QBs. It gives him more chances to score, and he is the most efficient QB at scoring.
Only Aaron Rodgers does it better INT-wise but doesnt score as efficiently.
If you have been paying attention to these posts, you'd know, Peyton's INTs puts him nowhere close, while Brady has numerous records for scoring the most points.
Mensa 7

Cypress, CA

#10414 Aug 20, 2013
flbadcatowner wrote:
<quoted text>I only wish you would wise up and realize that much of what you post is possibility and not settled proven fact. Judging by Brady's sack numbers, it looks like he doesn't always succeed in side stepping the pass rush.
As for who played on the team with a better defense, do you want to rethink that one? In 8 of 11 seasons as the starter (not counting 2008 when he missed most of the season), Brady played on teams that gave up less than 300 points. Never did he start when the Patriots gave up more than 400 points. Manning started on teams that gave up less than 300 points 4 times. 8 times, his team gave up over 300, but less than 400. Twice he played on teams that gave up over 400 points. You really laid an egg on that contention of yours as that doesn't sound like advantage Manning to me. Sounds more like advantage Brady. It is much easier to play conservatively when the defense holds down the opposition. Brady started on teams that gave up an average of roughly 290 pts./season while Manning's gave up an average of roughly 350 pts./season. It's hard to win Super Bowls with just an average defense.
Do you have any links to prove that Brady threw more Hail Mary interceptions than Manning or is that another opinion misrepresented as fact?
Manning also has some great pocket skills of his own. Considering how often Brady gets sacked, his attempts to sidestep the rush doesn't always work.
Wow that's some stat. Brady played on teams that had a defense that gave up less than 400 points all of Brady's 11 years, while Manning was on teams that had a defense that gave up less than 400 points for 12 years. Wow. How does the defensive side of the ball impact Brady's TDs and INTs again? They don't. Your arguement is Statistically invalid. Only goes to show you Brady can get sacked 51 more times and still win while Mannings 86 extra INTs are game killers. Makes sense. Would you rather get sacked and retain the ball or would you rather throw an INT and lose possession. Then would you trade 51 sacks for 86 INTs? Insane question right? I'll take the guy that doesn't throw the INT. and after you get done trading 51 sacks for 51 INTs, you still got 35 more INTs to go. And Mannings 1.3% completion% advantage means nothing in the scheme of things.
Now look at the end results, they only further prove my point. Brady leads NFL All-Time in win% and wins in postseason and all with a lesser offensive cast, amazing isn't he (Brady)? Case closed.

And did you know that defenses are rated by the NFL by how many yards they give up and not points.
Did you ever think to check? Guess its your reputation that takes the hit, not mine. Sorry :)
Oh, by the way, How many of those points were from Peyton's pick sixes. With 209 Interceptions, I'd bet quite a few.
Cabby

Cypress, CA

#10415 Aug 20, 2013
flbadcatowner wrote:
<quoted text>I see no substance in this post, only unsubstantiated personal attacks. It sounds to me like you are getting flustered. I am neither a Brady or Manning fan as I never liked the Broncos or Colts or the Patriots. My favorite team is the Giants and I wish they would dump overpaid Eli Manning's contract and sign a quality veteran QB in his place. Eli has trouble getting the job done in spite of having good receivers and a very good offensive line for most of his career.
Crap, crap and double crap. Who are you kidding, you see no substance in his post? Then say he attacked you when he ddn't. He attacked your feeble minded attempt (this may be an attack)/position that Denvers receivers, the ones that took Tebow to the AFC Championship game, are no good. Man what have you been smoking? They are great!!! Promeithus handed you your head in a basket with facts and stats anyone can look up. Best guillotine chop I've seen in a while. Then you attack him, wow, you are some piece of work.
TROLL ALERT, TROLL ALERT, TROLL ALERT.

And I couldn't stop laughing at you for wanting to get rid of Eli Manning. The same QB that has twice as many SB wins as his brother. Man what a screwup. Are you for real? I'm gonna read you just cause you make me laugh. Maybe we could make a movie together, I could play dumb and you could be dumber :)
BarTender

Cypress, CA

#10416 Aug 21, 2013
Cabby wrote:
<quoted text>
Crap, crap and double crap. Who are you kidding, you see no substance in his post? Then say he attacked you when he ddn't. He attacked your feeble minded attempt (this may be an attack)/position that Denvers receivers, the ones that took Tebow to the AFC Championship game, are no good. Man what have you been smoking? They are great!!! Promeithus handed you your head in a basket with facts and stats anyone can look up. Best guillotine chop I've seen in a while. Then you attack him, wow, you are some piece of work.
TROLL ALERT, TROLL ALERT, TROLL ALERT.
And I couldn't stop laughing at you for wanting to get rid of Eli Manning. The same QB that has twice as many SB wins as his brother. Man what a screwup. Are you for real? I'm gonna read you just cause you make me laugh. Maybe we could make a movie together, I could play dumb and you could be dumber :)
Better yet, he could play both parts.Sorry, couldn't resist. You set yourself up for this.
Janitor

Cypress, CA

#10417 Aug 21, 2013
Cabby wrote:
<quoted text>
Crap, crap and double crap. Who are you kidding, you see no substance in his post? Then say he attacked you when he ddn't. He attacked your feeble minded attempt (this may be an attack)/position that Denvers receivers, the ones that took Tebow to the AFC Championship game, are no good. Man what have you been smoking? They are great!!! Promeithus handed you your head in a basket with facts and stats anyone can look up. Best guillotine chop I've seen in a while. Then you attack him, wow, you are some piece of work.
TROLL ALERT, TROLL ALERT, TROLL ALERT.
And I couldn't stop laughing at you for wanting to get rid of Eli Manning. The same QB that has twice as many SB wins as his brother. Man what a screwup. Are you for real? I'm gonna read you just cause you make me laugh. Maybe we could make a movie together, I could play dumb and you could be dumber :)
Anybody ever notice this guy only rags on us, he never answers the questions he is asked.
Why won't he tell us why Manning is a the same level as Brady?
Only reason I can think of, 2 actually, is either he's got no evidence or he is a trouble makin troll.
Since I've never heard of any evidence, he's gotta be the troll.
Janitor

Cypress, CA

#10418 Aug 21, 2013
Cabby wrote:
<quoted text>
Crap, crap and double crap. Who are you kidding, you see no substance in his post? Then say he attacked you when he ddn't. He attacked your feeble minded attempt (this may be an attack)/position that Denvers receivers, the ones that took Tebow to the AFC Championship game, are no good. Man what have you been smoking? They are great!!! Promeithus handed you your head in a basket with facts and stats anyone can look up. Best guillotine chop I've seen in a while. Then you attack him, wow, you are some piece of work.
TROLL ALERT, TROLL ALERT, TROLL ALERT.
And I couldn't stop laughing at you for wanting to get rid of Eli Manning. The same QB that has twice as many SB wins as his brother. Man what a screwup. Are you for real? I'm gonna read you just cause you make me laugh. Maybe we could make a movie together, I could play dumb and you could be dumber :)
Sorry to Cabby
Ment the badcatowner guy is the troll not you. I'll say it again. The troll is not cabby.
The troll is badcatowner
TNS

Cypress, CA

#10419 Aug 22, 2013
How do you group the NFLs QBs?

Tier 1...Otto Graham, Tom Brady, Joe Montana
(Many Championships/SB Wins, and great Efficiency stats)

Tier 2....John Elway, John Unitas, Roger Staubach, Steve Young
(1 Championship/SB Win or more, and good-great Efficiency stats)

Tier 3....Brett Favre, Peyton Manning, Drew Brees, Dan Marino
(1SB Win &/or good Longevity stats)

Tier 4....Terry Bradshaw, Troy Aikman, Bart Starr, Ben Roethlisberger, Eli Manning
(2SB Wins or more, good manager of the offense, no efficiency or longevity stats)

Tier 5....Jim Kelly, Fran Tarkenton, Warren Moon
(winner or good longevity stats)

You can even matrix it out for a clearer view.
Gooddogowner

Cypress, CA

#10420 Aug 22, 2013
It is an impossibility for Brady to be over rated since he is already at the top of the food chain at #1. He could only be over rated if he was down the chain but thought of as above his proper position.
As TNS has shown above, if a tier three guy is thought to be a tier one guy, then that guy is over rated.
QBs most often over rated are Marino, Manning and Favre.
People mistake high career numbers for quality of play.
QBs most ofter under rated are Graham, Brady and Staubach (it also happens that these three have the 3 best winning percentages in NFL History).
Janitor

Cypress, CA

#10421 Aug 22, 2013
flbadcatowner wrote:
<quoted text>Considering how you absolutely blew on on your contention that Manning played on better defensive teams than Brady did, perhaps you need to clean up your own yard before you point fingers at others.
When you use the wrong numbers it's easy to be right. Thought everybody knew that defensive rankings are based on yards given up and not points. The Pats defensive ranking the last several years has been at the bottom of the league as reported by the NFL themselves. Obviously you dont know how to determine defensive rankings. You need to change the channel, you are watching the wrong show in your head.
Also, Manning has better receivers so he can get rid of the ball quicker. But the NFL doesn't consider this fact, they instead determine line quality based on sacks given up. Either way, Manning has the better offensive support, being sacked less frequently, and yet he still throws mega-INTs at a 32.7% greater rate per game.
On the lighter side, is your cat bad or is it the owner that's bad. Your not clear on that either.
Janitor

Cypress, CA

#10422 Aug 22, 2013
Be careful not to disagree with the badcatowner he will give you a bad rating in the judge it area, everytime you show he screwed up or thinks strangely, like saying the Giants should get rid of Eli Manning because he stinks (with 2SB Rings) while praising Peyton to death despite his only having 1SB Ring. or not seeing the difference in Peyton's 209 INTs vs Brady's 123 INTs. And then being outed as a TROLL.
Whenever he is asked to explain his position he fails to do so, instead making up his own unrecognized NFL stats to back his position (he doesn't like that the NFL uses yards to rank defenses so he uses points). The reason the NFL uses yards and not points, is because the ranking should be measured by what the defense alone gives up. Points can be scored against the offense with pick sixes and safeties which skew results. And with 209 INTs bet Peyton has quite a few pick sixes in there.
He could easily explain why...when asked to show reasons WHY he thinks Peyton is in Brady's class,.but he never does. That's why he is pummeled with facts, stats and quality commentary by so many.
Im calling you out dude. Either put up or shut up. For the umpteenth time explain WHY Peyton is in Brady's class or forever be labeled a stinking TROLL.
Anybody think he'll respond? Bet he won't answer but say I'm mean and attacking him changing the subject or trying to gain sympathy. Anything but prove he's not a TROLL by giving a well thought out statistically supported argument for Manning. If he does I will apologize. Then he can go back to being a TROLL somewhere else.
Prometheus

Cypress, CA

#10423 Aug 22, 2013
Gooddogowner wrote:
It is an impossibility for Brady to be over rated since he is already at the top of the food chain at #1. He could only be over rated if he was down the chain but thought of as above his proper position.
As TNS has shown above, if a tier three guy is thought to be a tier one guy, then that guy is over rated.
QBs most often over rated are Marino, Manning and Favre.
People mistake high career numbers for quality of play.
QBs most ofter under rated are Graham, Brady and Staubach (it also happens that these three have the 3 best winning percentages in NFL History).
And do you also notice, its the winningest QBs that are the Efficiency stat guys (and Championship winners), while the big number guys just played a lot of years and threw more passes which ups their career stats. No one is ever going to Mistake Marino, Manning and Favre for Graham, Brady and Staubach, and Montana
It is the wise man that takes the Efficiency stats over the Career/Longevity stats every time.

To be fair to Peyton. He has had the misfortune of playing in the same era as Brady. Like the Lakers had to overcome Bill Russell and couldn't, Manning has to overcome Brady, yet Seldomly does. Were it not for Russell and Brady being born, the Lakers and Manning would be seen in a whole new historical light.
Prometheus

Cypress, CA

#10424 Aug 22, 2013
Mensa 7 wrote:
<quoted text>
Wow that's some stat. Brady played on teams that had a defense that gave up less than 400 points all of Brady's 11 years, while Manning was on teams that had a defense that gave up less than 400 points for 12 years. Wow. How does the defensive side of the ball impact Brady's TDs and INTs again? They don't. Your arguement is Statistically invalid. Only goes to show you Brady can get sacked 51 more times and still win while Mannings 86 extra INTs are game killers. Makes sense. Would you rather get sacked and retain the ball or would you rather throw an INT and lose possession. Then would you trade 51 sacks for 86 INTs? Insane question right? I'll take the guy that doesn't throw the INT. and after you get done trading 51 sacks for 51 INTs, you still got 35 more INTs to go. And Mannings 1.3% completion% advantage means nothing in the scheme of things.
Now look at the end results, they only further prove my point. Brady leads NFL All-Time in win% and wins in postseason and all with a lesser offensive cast, amazing isn't he (Brady)? Case closed.
And did you know that defenses are rated by the NFL by how many yards they give up and not points.
Did you ever think to check? Guess its your reputation that takes the hit, not mine. Sorry :)
Oh, by the way, How many of those points were from Peyton's pick sixes. With 209 Interceptions, I'd bet quite a few.
It's not just the pick sixes and safeties that add points but even INTs that RESULT in both TDs and FGs on the initial subsequent drive that would have to be included as well. That would up the point total considerably, making point totals statistically invalid as a measurement for defensive ability. Special Teams would also skew the analysis, so point totals are a bad choice to measure defensive ability.
Not to dump on you but the analytical world of statistics doesn't value things the way you or sports announcers do. We try to be more clinical and less emotional in nature.
The wins, efficiency stats and even the career stats when offset by three less playing years, all point to Brady as the best ever. And when any QB controls all three statistical areas it's near impossible to unseat him or raise another to his level of play. Sorry for your frustration that Manning doesn't make it to the top of our rating. His trending INTs,, Losses coupled with numerous advantages/failures doesn't allow it.
TNS

Cypress, CA

#10425 Aug 22, 2013
Prometheus wrote:
<quoted text>
It's not just the pick sixes and safeties that add points but even INTs that RESULT in both TDs and FGs on the initial subsequent drive that would have to be included as well. That would up the point total considerably, making point totals statistically invalid as a measurement for defensive ability. Special Teams would also skew the analysis, so point totals are a bad choice to measure defensive ability.
Not to dump on you but the analytical world of statistics doesn't value things the way you or sports announcers do. We try to be more clinical and less emotional in nature.
The wins, efficiency stats and even the career stats when offset by three less playing years, all point to Brady as the best ever. And when any QB controls all three statistical areas it's near impossible to unseat him or raise another to his level of play. Sorry for your frustration that Manning doesn't make it to the top of our rating. His trending INTs,, Losses coupled with numerous advantages/failures doesn't allow it.
You bring up an excellent point about being clinical. It's easiest to mold/model fans while they are in their emotional states than otherwise. And it's the sports media that always caters to their emotional side, trying to get them hyped up. Seems apparent there is a distinct conflict of interest between accurate statistical analysis and maintaining a hyped up consumer for sports marketing purposes. Always inherently knew this, just never put it into words like this before.

“I call it as I see it.”

Since: Jul 09

Retirement City

#10426 Aug 22, 2013
TNS wrote:
<quoted text>
Please explain how a defense, any defense impacts Brady's offensive statistics relative to Mannings.
How does Brady having a better defense impact Manning throwing over 30 percent more INTs? At best they only face each other once per regular season. Not sure I get it. Help please.
You were the one making such a big deal (falsely) about Manning have the benefit of better defenses. Just for the record, if a team gives up more points, the offense will have to score more often which will require them to take more chances. The offense will have less time to work with the ball if the defense is consistently unable to get the opposing offense off the field. It is all quite simple if you would put your mind to it to comprehend it all.

TMD

“Look! Up in the sky!”

Since: Dec 06

Columbus, Ohio

#10427 Aug 22, 2013

TMD

“Look! Up in the sky!”

Since: Dec 06

Columbus, Ohio

#10428 Aug 22, 2013

“I call it as I see it.”

Since: Jul 09

Retirement City

#10429 Aug 22, 2013
Janitor wrote:
<quoted text>
When you use the wrong numbers it's easy to be right. Thought everybody knew that defensive rankings are based on yards given up and not points. The Pats defensive ranking the last several years has been at the bottom of the league as reported by the NFL themselves. Obviously you dont know how to determine defensive rankings. You need to change the channel, you are watching the wrong show in your head.
Also, Manning has better receivers so he can get rid of the ball quicker. But the NFL doesn't consider this fact, they instead determine line quality based on sacks given up. Either way, Manning has the better offensive support, being sacked less frequently, and yet he still throws mega-INTs at a 32.7% greater rate per game.
On the lighter side, is your cat bad or is it the owner that's bad. Your not clear on that either.
Yards goven up can be a very poor yardstick. The Browns defense of the mid 1960a used to give up a lot of total yards, but they were stingy about giving up points as they always were guarding against the big play. Don Meredith described the Browns defense when he played as a defense that would bend, but never break. It was not unususal for the Browns to be out yarded and still come away with a victory. Total yards do not always put points on the board. Rheir ceach, Blanton Collier installed a defensive scheme that usually resulted in the Browns giving up fewer points than most while allowing total yardage that was either average or somewhat more than average. The Browns would tighten up their defense once a team got inside the Brown's 40 as their was let field to defend behind them and they could tighten up on their defensive coverages and play more aggressively vs. the run. Teams that made it to the red zone vs. the Browns usually had to settle for a field goal attempt and in those days with the wider spread hashmarks, misses were much more frequent.

Due to smaller roster sizes, not all teams could afford setting aside 2 roster spots for place kicking and punting specialists, consequently, many place kickers were also position players and there were also a number of players who both punted and did the place kicking. In the mid 1960s, 60% was considered a good field goal success rate. A percentage in the low to upper 50s was about average. There were a few kickers back then who would succeed on less than half their attempts.

“I call it as I see it.”

Since: Jul 09

Retirement City

#10430 Aug 22, 2013
BarTender wrote:
<quoted text>
Best summary of the difference between Brady and Mannng I've seen in a while. Think they need more Janitors in Indy and Denver to clean up the crap they have been trying to sell us on Manning. Your next round is on me, and I'll cleanup after.
You forget that Manning has played in almost 50 more games.They need more competent janitors in Cypress CA if your posts are any indication of janitorial competence.

“I call it as I see it.”

Since: Jul 09

Retirement City

#10431 Aug 22, 2013
Cabby wrote:
<quoted text>
Crap, crap and double crap. Who are you kidding, you see no substance in his post? Then say he attacked you when he ddn't. He attacked your feeble minded attempt (this may be an attack)/position that Denvers receivers, the ones that took Tebow to the AFC Championship game, are no good. Man what have you been smoking? They are great!!! Promeithus handed you your head in a basket with facts and stats anyone can look up. Best guillotine chop I've seen in a while. Then you attack him, wow, you are some piece of work.
TROLL ALERT, TROLL ALERT, TROLL ALERT.
And I couldn't stop laughing at you for wanting to get rid of Eli Manning. The same QB that has twice as many SB wins as his brother. Man what a screwup. Are you for real? I'm gonna read you just cause you make me laugh. Maybe we could make a movie together, I could play dumb and you could be dumber :)
I have already been alerted to the troll activity in Cypress CA. Now you are claiming that you and Promethius are separate entities. I have seen all i need to see and have determined that you have your trolls mixed up. After all, it was you anhd not me who got warned by Topix to tone it down.

As for Eli Manning, he has only about an 82 passer rating to show for playing behind a good offensive line and having good running backs and pass receivers. The Giants were lucky to even get into the last Super Bowl they won as they struggled to a 9-7 regular season. Last year, Eli's performance cost the Giant's a chance for the playoffs as he has in other years as well.

Let's try to put things in perspective. When Brady went down with an injury, the Pats went 11-5 in his absence. When Manning was lost to the Colts in 2011, the Colts were 2-14. Brady was voted on of the more overrated players by his peers, people who know football much better than you and me. Judging by Matt Cassel's numbers in N.E. compared to K.C. it looks like Cassel was a strong starter when Brady got hurt for the Pats, but was only a journeyman for the Chiefs. If anything, Cassel should have gotten better after his one season as a starter, but it didn't happen. The obvious answer is that the Patriots were a far superior team to the Chiefs and much of Brady's superior performance was due to being with a much better team.

http://voices.yahoo.com/tom-brady-most-overra...

“I call it as I see it.”

Since: Jul 09

Retirement City

#10432 Aug 22, 2013
Mensa 7 wrote:
<quoted text>
To make it easy for all (the unbiased) to understand. What is a QBs main purpose? Answer...score as many points as possible.
So, find out who scores the most points and you got your better offensive weapon (and QB).
Despite having worse receivers throughout his career, Brady has scored more. I believe it has a lot to do with his not throwing INTs at the same clip as other QBs. It gives him more chances to score, and he is the most efficient QB at scoring.
Only Aaron Rodgers does it better INT-wise but doesnt score as efficiently.
If you have been paying attention to these posts, you'd know, Peyton's INTs puts him nowhere close, while Brady has numerous records for scoring the most points.
Having a team behind him that gave up an average of 60 points fewer per season shows that Brady had a stronger defense behind him which means that the defense of the Patriots did a better job of stopping the opposition which would give Brady more time to score points. The Patriots weren't hurt nearly as badly by Tom Brady's absence the year he was out nearly the whole season as the Colts were when Manning got hurt.

Tell me when this thread is updated:

Subscribe Now Add to my Tracker

Add your comments below

Characters left: 4000

Please note by submitting this form you acknowledge that you have read the Terms of Service and the comment you are posting is in compliance with such terms. Be polite. Inappropriate posts may be removed by the moderator. Send us your feedback.

NCAA Sports Discussions

Title Updated Last By Comments
UCLA FOOTBALL NOTEBOOK: Neuheisel says Prince w... (Sep '10) 12 min Bruin For Life 27,603
College football roundup: Ohio State starts the... (Sep '13) 3 hr Go Blue Forever 1,400
The Better Football Conference: PAC-10 or SEC? (Aug '07) 8 hr PEE PEE PETE 49,298
Malzahn: 3 injured starters 'day to day' for LSU 8 hr BigDan 1
Da'Rick Rogers released by Colts 14 hr Max Flatulence 2
Auburn opens 6-game stretch of ranked teams vs LSU Mon auburnwareagle 1
Pass defense not only OSU question vs. UC Sep 27 Dlbuckeye 1

NCAA Sports People Search

Addresses and phone numbers for FREE