Tom Brady is Overrated

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Tom Brady of the New England Patriots is the most overrated quarterback in the NFL. Full Story

TMD

“Look! Up in the sky!”

Since: Dec 06

Columbus, Ohio

#10092 Dec 30, 2012
Bewitched wrote:
<quoted text>
LOL I can top that ... guess who is the starting QB for the Browns today. Thad Lewis!
Another one of your Duke connections!

Colts comfortably beat the Texans 28-16, elevating the Broncos to the #1 seed in the AFC. Peyton and home-field advantage - a dangerous combination...

And on a sad note, the Lions fall to the Bears, thus ending the Giants season. I think it's time for Coughlin to go.

“I call it as I see it.”

Since: Jul 09

Retirement City

#10093 Dec 30, 2012
TMD wrote:
<quoted text>
Another one of your Duke connections!
Colts comfortably beat the Texans 28-16, elevating the Broncos to the #1 seed in the AFC. Peyton and home-field advantage - a dangerous combination...
And on a sad note, the Lions fall to the Bears, thus ending the Giants season. I think it's time for Coughlin to go.
It wasn't Couglin's fault Manning regressed this year. Eli was overrated to begin with.

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TMD

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Since: Dec 06

Columbus, Ohio

#10094 Dec 31, 2012
flbadcatowner wrote:
<quoted text>It wasn't Couglin's fault Manning regressed this year. Eli was overrated to begin with.
This is where all of those "overrated/underrated " conversations start. Manning only plays one position - quarterback. He doesn't play defense or special teams, and he can't throw AND catch the ball.

The Giants' problems this year have gone far beyond some errant throws by the QB:

This year's Giants started the year the exact same way they did in the SB years of '07 and '11. Through the first 8 games in all three seasons they went 6-2. They also ended the year almost identically, going 4-4, 3-5, and 3-5, which, of course, had them ending the regular season with almost identical records of 10-6, 9-7, and 9-7. During the SB years that was good enough to get into the playoffs, but not this year.

Blaming Manning for the Giants not making it to the playoffs even though he had the third highest QBR of his career despite the fact that he lost Brandon Jacobs, Mario Manningham, and a musical chairs offensive line, just doesn't make sense. Yes, he threw for less yards than last year, but this year he had fewer attempts and less INTs.

Manning had a career year last year and it's not realistic to expect him to duplicate a season like that. Since '08 he has lost some of his biggest offensive weapons, including the previously mentioned Brandon Jacobs, Mario Manningham, as well as, Plaxico Burress and Jeremy Shockey. I think it's absolutely amazing that he has been able to continue to produce year in and year out while losing his key receivers and RBs, and breaking in new ones. What's more amazing is that the offense is the second least penalized unit in the NFL. Manning must be doing SOMETHING right to keep these guys organized while he's guiding them.

Tom Coughlin has been on the hot-seat for the past six years. Had he not won a SB in '07-'08 he would have been fired. He has lost this team several times now because of his eccentric, draconian coaching and disciplinary methods, and seems to be riding the coattails of his past accomplishments more that his current coaching prowess. The Giants are not focused or prepared quite often, and have the second most penalized defense in the league.

These late season collapses seem to point to a lack of depth on offense and defense, and poor adjustments made by the coaching staff with the current set of players. Tom Coughlin may be a great position coach, but when it comes to managing and overseeing an entire organization he seems to be overwhelmed.

I, for one, would like to see a younger, more energetic, and more aggressive coach take over and guide this team before Manning's (and the Giants') SB window closes for good.

“I call it as I see it.”

Since: Jul 09

Retirement City

#10095 Jan 1, 2013
TMD wrote:
<quoted text>
This is where all of those "overrated/underrated " conversations start. Manning only plays one position - quarterback. He doesn't play defense or special teams, and he can't throw AND catch the ball.
The Giants' problems this year have gone far beyond some errant throws by the QB:
This year's Giants started the year the exact same way they did in the SB years of '07 and '11. Through the first 8 games in all three seasons they went 6-2. They also ended the year almost identically, going 4-4, 3-5, and 3-5, which, of course, had them ending the regular season with almost identical records of 10-6, 9-7, and 9-7. During the SB years that was good enough to get into the playoffs, but not this year.
Blaming Manning for the Giants not making it to the playoffs even though he had the third highest QBR of his career despite the fact that he lost Brandon Jacobs, Mario Manningham, and a musical chairs offensive line, just doesn't make sense. Yes, he threw for less yards than last year, but this year he had fewer attempts and less INTs.
Manning had a career year last year and it's not realistic to expect him to duplicate a season like that. Since '08 he has lost some of his biggest offensive weapons, including the previously mentioned Brandon Jacobs, Mario Manningham, as well as, Plaxico Burress and Jeremy Shockey. I think it's absolutely amazing that he has been able to continue to produce year in and year out while losing his key receivers and RBs, and breaking in new ones. What's more amazing is that the offense is the second least penalized unit in the NFL. Manning must be doing SOMETHING right to keep these guys organized while he's guiding them.
Tom Coughlin has been on the hot-seat for the past six years. Had he not won a SB in '07-'08 he would have been fired. He has lost this team several times now because of his eccentric, draconian coaching and disciplinary methods, and seems to be riding the coattails of his past accomplishments more that his current coaching prowess. The Giants are not focused or prepared quite often, and have the second most penalized defense in the league.
These late season collapses seem to point to a lack of depth on offense and defense, and poor adjustments made by the coaching staff with the current set of players. Tom Coughlin may be a great position coach, but when it comes to managing and overseeing an entire organization he seems to be overwhelmed.
I, for one, would like to see a younger, more energetic, and more aggressive coach take over and guide this team before Manning's (and the Giants') SB window closes for good.
Eli made bad throws all season long. In spite of having a very good and deep wideout corps, he still didn't get the job done. He did have a few good games, but he also stunk up the place in a number of others. I some games, it seemed he couln't or wouldn't throw more than a dozen tards downfield. Coughlin has led the Giants to two Super Bowl wins in less than a decade while there are franchises out there that haven't won a single Super Bowl in the four and one half decade history of the Super Bowl.

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#10096 Jan 1, 2013
TMD wrote:
<quoted text>
This is where all of those "overrated/underrated " conversations start. Manning only plays one position - quarterback. He doesn't play defense or special teams, and he can't throw AND catch the ball.
The Giants' problems this year have gone far beyond some errant throws by the QB:
This year's Giants started the year the exact same way they did in the SB years of '07 and '11. Through the first 8 games in all three seasons they went 6-2. They also ended the year almost identically, going 4-4, 3-5, and 3-5, which, of course, had them ending the regular season with almost identical records of 10-6, 9-7, and 9-7. During the SB years that was good enough to get into the playoffs, but not this year.
Blaming Manning for the Giants not making it to the playoffs even though he had the third highest QBR of his career despite the fact that he lost Brandon Jacobs, Mario Manningham, and a musical chairs offensive line, just doesn't make sense. Yes, he threw for less yards than last year, but this year he had fewer attempts and less INTs.
Manning had a career year last year and it's not realistic to expect him to duplicate a season like that. Since '08 he has lost some of his biggest offensive weapons, including the previously mentioned Brandon Jacobs, Mario Manningham, as well as, Plaxico Burress and Jeremy Shockey. I think it's absolutely amazing that he has been able to continue to produce year in and year out while losing his key receivers and RBs, and breaking in new ones. What's more amazing is that the offense is the second least penalized unit in the NFL. Manning must be doing SOMETHING right to keep these guys organized while he's guiding them.
Tom Coughlin has been on the hot-seat for the past six years. Had he not won a SB in '07-'08 he would have been fired. He has lost this team several times now because of his eccentric, draconian coaching and disciplinary methods, and seems to be riding the coattails of his past accomplishments more that his current coaching prowess. The Giants are not focused or prepared quite often, and have the second most penalized defense in the league.
These late season collapses seem to point to a lack of depth on offense and defense, and poor adjustments made by the coaching staff with the current set of players. Tom Coughlin may be a great position coach, but when it comes to managing and overseeing an entire organization he seems to be overwhelmed.
I, for one, would like to see a younger, more energetic, and more aggressive coach take over and guide this team before Manning's (and the Giants') SB window closes for good.
Brandon Jacobs was only active for a few games while Manningham was known for his erratic pass patterns. Dominik Hixon stayed healthy for a change and Reuben Randle played respectably when cal;led on which rendered Manningham's departure a virtual non-issue. Their defensive line is getting old and their defensive backfield is less than dependable as is their linebacking. if one looks at Manning's career Qb rating, it is no better than that of an average starter and is hardly elite in spite of having played behind a good offensive line for most of his career and having good receivers to throw to along with being supported by a good running game most of those years.

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TMD

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Since: Dec 06

Columbus, Ohio

#10097 Jan 2, 2013
flbadcatowner wrote:
<quoted text>Eli made bad throws all season long.
ALL quarterbacks make bad throws. That includes the likes of older brother Manning, Rodgers, Brees, and Brady. Nobody's perfect.

If you want an example of a QB who has been called "elite", but routinely underperforms, look no further than Romo. He is the poster child for underachieving QBs. Despite the numbers, I don't know of any nationally syndicated writers, coaches, or subject matter experts who have rated Romo a better QB than Manning. Not one.

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In spite of having a very good and deep wideout corps, he still didn't get the job done. He did have a few good games, but he also stunk up the place in a number of others. I some games, it seemed he couln't or wouldn't throw more than a dozen yards downfield.
A "few" good games? He was the leading passer in half of his games this season. And, as I said earlier, no one is perfect. That includes those receivers you speak so highly of. Bennett is no Shockey, and Cruz and Hixon could write a book on drops, near catches, bad reads, and poor routes. It's kind of hard for a QB to throw a deep ball when the receiver hasn't beaten the coverage, or has run the wrong route. More difficult, still, when they drop balls thrown directly to them...

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Coughlin has led the Giants to two Super Bowl wins in less than a decade while there are franchises out there that haven't won a single Super Bowl in the four and one half decade history of the Super Bowl.
And While Coughlin was doing all this "leading" what was Manning doing? Do you really believe ANY other QB would have won either of those SBs? Manning is, by far, the best big game QB in the NFL, bar none.

How many SBs did Coughlin win as an HC without Manning? He had plenty of opportunites. Why didn't he lead the Jaguars to a SB? Could it be he didn't have an ELITE QB to carry the team? Hmmmm...

TMD

“Look! Up in the sky!”

Since: Dec 06

Columbus, Ohio

#10098 Jan 2, 2013
flbadcatowner wrote:
<quoted text>Brandon Jacobs was only active for a few games while Manningham was known for his erratic pass patterns. Dominik Hixon stayed healthy for a change and Reuben Randle played respectably when called on which rendered Manningham's departure a virtual non-issue.
Brandon Jacobs was one half of a very productive rushing attack, and was an excellent blocker. And, yes, Manningham made mistakes, but he was also one of the most dynamic receivers in the league, and has been the past four years. If he were not, the 49ers would never have picked him up.

I can't believe you're actually going to try to compare Randle to Manningham. The difference is night and day. Randle is an average backup WR, but he is no franchise receiver, and it showed when he was on the field in the place of the Giants' injured leading receiver, Victor Cruz. That's when the Giants really missed Manningham. Between Manningham, Nicks, and Cruz a receiver was always open. That's not the case anymore.

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Their defensive line is getting old and their defensive backfield is less than dependable as is their linebacking.
Did you bring this up to explain the defensive penalties, or just the inability to stop teams in crucial situations, or both? Regardless, this is a big reason the Giants have faltered over the last half of the season. This, obviously, has much more to do with coaching, than Manning or the QB position.

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if one looks at Manning's career Qb rating, it is no better than that of an average starter and is hardly elite in spite of having played behind a good offensive line for most
of his career and having good receivers to throw to along with being supported by a good running game most of those years.
I could say the exact same thing about Brady's QBR the first nine years of his career (excluding '07). It didn't stop him from winning 3 SBs and being considered an elite QB.

The bottom line is this: Eli Manning is a two-time SB winner/MVP who had an average '12 season after having a career '11 season. It happens. It doesn't mean anybody has regressed,
or are not the same QB they were the previous season. It just means he's human.

Since: Apr 08

Akron, Ohio

#10099 Jan 3, 2013
Wow, you guys have a good discussion going on in here. I'm glad somebody finally brought up "good coaching."

Happy New Year to all.

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#10100 Jan 3, 2013
TMD wrote:
<quoted text>
Brandon Jacobs was one half of a very productive rushing attack, and was an excellent blocker. And, yes, Manningham made mistakes, but he was also one of the most dynamic receivers in the league, and has been the past four years. If he were not, the 49ers would never have picked him up.
I can't believe you're actually going to try to compare Randle to Manningham. The difference is night and day. Randle is an average backup WR, but he is no franchise receiver, and it showed when he was on the field in the place of the Giants' injured leading receiver, Victor Cruz. That's when the Giants really missed Manningham. Between Manningham, Nicks, and Cruz a receiver was always open. That's not the case anymore.
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<quoted text>
Did you bring this up to explain the defensive penalties, or just the inability to stop teams in crucial situations, or both? Regardless, this is a big reason the Giants have faltered over the last half of the season. This, obviously, has much more to do with coaching, than Manning or the QB position.
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<quoted text>
I could say the exact same thing about Brady's QBR the first nine years of his career (excluding '07). It didn't stop him from winning 3 SBs and being considered an elite QB.
The bottom line is this: Eli Manning is a two-time SB winner/MVP who had an average '12 season after having a career '11 season. It happens. It doesn't mean anybody has regressed,
or are not the same QB they were the previous season. It just means he's human.
Brandon Jacobs WAS an effective runner at one time, but he obviously has lost something. He is now more of a fringe player than he was in his prime. The Giants made the right decision on him as he was obviously overpaid for what little he produced (7 yards in 5 carries). Running backs tend to wear down more quickly than players at any other position and Jacobs certainly is a poster boy for that.

I am not trying to compare Randle with Manningham just yet, but he certainly has been getting better and has the potential to become Manningham's equal or superior as he better learns the ropes in the pros. Let us not forget Manningham had only 4 receptions in his rookie season to Randle's 29 in his first season. When you consider that Randle did not get the playing time that Manningham received in SF, his statistics stack up very favorably vs. Manningham. Manningham started 10 games to Randle's 1 and Randle was the number 4 receiver behind a solid trio of Cruz, Nicks and Hixon. Manningham would likely have been no better than the fourth receiver on the Giants anyway this year. Mario's salary demands obviously were greater than his value to the team. Note that Randle had a much better per reception yardage figure than Manningham in 2012 and his reception to targeted ratio is roughly equal to Manningham's career average.

Eli I believe is the main reason for the Giants late season sags as he just can't seem to get himself mentally into the game at times for a whole season and only seems to be consistently good when either the game in on the line or in the playoffs. I will admit he as as good as any with time running down with his team trailing by a TD or less.

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#10101 Jan 3, 2013
TMD wrote:
<quoted text>

<quoted text>
I could say the exact same thing about Brady's QBR the first nine years of his career (excluding '07). It didn't stop him from winning 3 SBs and being considered an elite QB.
The bottom line is this: Eli Manning is a two-time SB winner/MVP who had an average '12 season after having a career '11 season. It happens. It doesn't mean anybody has regressed,
or are not the same QB they were the previous season. It just means he's human.
Have you ever noticed that Bady's career QB rating is higher than Manning's single season best (96.6 to 93.1)?

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TMD

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Since: Dec 06

Columbus, Ohio

#10102 Jan 3, 2013
flbadcatowner wrote:
<quoted text>Brandon Jacobs WAS an effective runner at one time, but he obviously has lost something. He is now more of a fringe player than he was in his prime. The Giants made the right decision on him as he was obviously overpaid for what little he produced (7 yards in 5 carries). Running backs tend to wear down more quickly than players at any other position and Jacobs certainly is a poster boy for that.
This is a bit misleading. Brandon Jacobs can still be very effective when he is given enough touches. Five carries over two games is not enough. Besides that, he's been playing behind Frank Gore, Kendall Hunter, and LaMichael James. There really isn't room for him on the 9ers roster.

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I am not trying to compare Randle with Manningham just yet, but he certainly has been getting better and has the potential to become Manningham's equal or superior as he better learns the ropes in the pros. Let us not forget Manningham had only 4 receptions in his rookie season to Randle's 29 in his first season. When you consider that Randle did not get the playing time that Manningham received in SF, his statistics stack up very favorably vs. Manningham. Manningham started 10 games to Randle's 1 and Randle was the number 4 receiver behind a solid trio of Cruz, Nicks and Hixon. Manningham would likely have been no better than the fourth receiver on the Giants anyway this year. Mario's salary demands obviously were greater than his value to the team.
The fact remains that Randle is not a starter, he played far less than Manningham, and his numbers show it. He may one day develop into something closer to Manningham, but that's not who he is today, or was during the season when Manning had to rely on him.

Manningham would probably have been the #2 receiver, not #4, and his salary demands appear to be reasonable enough for the 49ers to pick him up. Despite the 9ers having an excellent set of receivers, Manningham was still their second leading receiver right behind Crabtree. I'd say he lived up to his salary demands.

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Note that Randle had a much better per reception yardage figure than Manningham in 2012 and his reception to targeted ratio is roughly equal to Manningham's career average.
These type of extrapolations almost never work. If I catch one pass for 33 yards, and you catch 33 passes for 33 yards does that make me a better receiver because I have a 33 ypc average and you have a 1 ypc average? No, it just means that my sample size is way too small. That's the problem with comparing Randle to Manningham. Randle's sample size is way too small. We'll have to wait and see if Randle one day develops into a #1 or #2 receiver with a sufficient enough sample size to compare their stats on a meaningful basis.

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Eli I believe is the main reason for the Giants late season sags as he just can't seem to get himself mentally into the game at times for a whole season and only seems to be consistently good when either the game in on the line or in the playoffs. I will admit he as as good as any with time running down with his team trailing by a TD or less.
Isn't it more likely that Coughlin (and his aides) just make poor decisions late in the season and dig these holes for the team? That HE has mental lapses and can't keep focused through the more difficult part of the schedule?

The last half of the season is when everyone in your division has seen all of the new wrinkles you've added to the offense and defense. It requires a level of ingenuity and inventiveness not necessary earlier in the year. I just think Coughlin and his team have run out of fresh ideas. It's time for a change.

TMD

“Look! Up in the sky!”

Since: Dec 06

Columbus, Ohio

#10103 Jan 3, 2013
flbadcatowner wrote:
<quoted text>Have you ever noticed that Bady's career QB rating is higher than Manning's single season best (96.6 to 93.1)?
I have. I also noticed that Manning has only played in the NFL 9 seasons. Brady's QBR average through his first 9 years (excluding the aberration of '07) is 82.15. Manning's is 82.7. Even if you add in '07, Brady's QBR average is only 86.04. Not much of a difference.

It wasn't until Brady's tenth season in the league that he started compiling QBRs near 100 consistently. Looks like next year may be a monster year for Manning...

“I call it as I see it.”

Since: Jul 09

Retirement City

#10104 Jan 3, 2013
TMD wrote:
<quoted text>
This is a bit misleading. Brandon Jacobs can still be very effective when he is given enough touches. Five carries over two games is not enough. Besides that, he's been playing behind Frank Gore, Kendall Hunter, and LaMichael James. There really isn't room for him on the 9ers roster.
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<quoted text>
The fact remains that Randle is not a starter, he played far less than Manningham, and his numbers show it. He may one day develop into something closer to Manningham, but that's not who he is today, or was during the season when Manning had to rely on him.
Manningham would probably have been the #2 receiver, not #4, and his salary demands appear to be reasonable enough for the 49ers to pick him up. Despite the 9ers having an excellent set of receivers, Manningham was still their second leading receiver right behind Crabtree. I'd say he lived up to his salary demands.
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<quoted text>
These type of extrapolations almost never work. If I catch one pass for 33 yards, and you catch 33 passes for 33 yards does that make me a better receiver because I have a 33 ypc average and you have a 1 ypc average? No, it just means that my sample size is way too small. That's the problem with comparing Randle to Manningham. Randle's sample size is way too small. We'll have to wait and see if Randle one day develops into a #1 or #2 receiver with a sufficient enough sample size to compare their stats on a meaningful basis.
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<quoted text>
Isn't it more likely that Coughlin (and his aides) just make poor decisions late in the season and dig these holes for the team? That HE has mental lapses and can't keep focused through the more difficult part of the schedule?
The last half of the season is when everyone in your division has seen all of the new wrinkles you've added to the offense and defense. It requires a level of ingenuity and inventiveness not necessary earlier in the year. I just think Coughlin and his team have run out of fresh ideas. It's time for a change.
Manningham number 2 with the Giants? Dream on! Nicks and Cruz are clearly superior and Hixon is at least his equal. Randle is at worst only a very small dropoff from Erratic Pass Route Manningham. The stats showed that Randle in his firat NFL season caught about the same percentage of targeted passes as Manningham has in his career. Did you see the game he had against Philadelphia? The Giants passing game didn't miss a beat with Nicks sidelined and Randle starting in his place. Hixon had 3 less catches, but nearly 120 yards more gained as the #3 Giant receiver than Manningham had as the #2 49er receiver. Except for injuries to the 49ers wideouts, Manningham would have been the #3 receiver for the 49ers.

I still believe that Manning does not always show up on game day mentally as the season wears on which would have frustrated even Vince Lombardi.

If Jacobs was still such a wonderful running back, why so few carries with the 49ers? His best days are obviously behind him. Unless the Giants can get him back at a bargain price, they should not sign him now that he is a free agent. He would be no better than the #3 running back with the Giants now.

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#10105 Jan 3, 2013
TMD wrote:
<quoted text>
I have. I also noticed that Manning has only played in the NFL 9 seasons. Brady's QBR average through his first 9 years (excluding the aberration of '07) is 82.15. Manning's is 82.7. Even if you add in '07, Brady's QBR average is only 86.04. Not much of a difference.
It wasn't until Brady's tenth season in the league that he started compiling QBRs near 100 consistently. Looks like next year may be a monster year for Manning...
What statistics were you looking at? According to Pro Football Reference.com , Brady's rate for his first 9 seasons was 92.9. Prior to 2007, his passing rate for his career was 88.4 At present his QB rate is 96.6. Manning in comparison checks in with an 82.7 for his 9 years in the NFL. Your figures for Brady are spurious. I am a Giant fan, but I will be the first to admit that Manning is overrated and certainly not elite.

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Since: Dec 06

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#10106 Jan 3, 2013
flbadcatowner wrote:
<quoted text>Manningham number 2 with the Giants? Dream on! Nicks and Cruz are clearly superior and Hixon is at least his equal. Randle is at worst only a very small dropoff from Erratic Pass Route Manningham. The stats showed that Randle in his first NFL season caught about the same percentage of targeted passes as Manningham has in his career.
I agree that Cruz is a superior WR, but Nicks is no better. His routes aren't any better and he is injured just as often. It's a toss-up. I choose to go with big play Manningham.

And, once again, you want to take one season and compare it to another guy's entire career. When Randle has played enough seasons to make a valid statistical comparison with Manningham, then I'll have this discussion with you.
Did you see the game he had against Philadelphia? The Giants passing game didn't miss a beat with Nicks sidelined and Randle starting in his place. Hixon had 3 less catches, but nearly 120 yards more gained as the #3 Giant receiver than Manningham had as the #2 49er receiver.
EVERYBODY had great games against Philly this season. And, yes, Hixon is a good receiver, he just has a ways to go to catch up with Manningham's big game acumen. Manningham actually RAN for 3 first downs and was a punt and kickoff returner in college. He's just the more versatile of the two.

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Except for injuries to the 49ers wideouts, Manningham would have been the #3 receiver for the 49ers.
Your opinion. I guess we'll never know...

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I still believe that Manning does not always show up on game day mentally as the season wears on which would have frustrated even Vince Lombardi.
What does Lombardi have to do with this discussion, and how the heck would you know how he would feel? Let's try to keep this conversation confined to the Giants players and living coaches.

I believe whoever prepares the game plans for the Giants is worn out and out of ideas. A change needs to be made.

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If Jacobs was still such a wonderful running back, why so few carries with the 49ers? His best days are obviously behind him. Unless the Giants can get him back at a bargain price, they should not sign him now that he is a free agent. He would be no better than the #3 running back with the Giants now.
Once again, your opinion. As I said before, Jacobs needs more touches to be effective, and the 49ers roster already has two great backs and a sensational rookie. There's no room on their roster for Jacobs. The Colts could use a back like him.

TMD

“Look! Up in the sky!”

Since: Dec 06

Columbus, Ohio

#10107 Jan 3, 2013
flbadcatowner wrote:
<quoted text>What statistics were you looking at? According to Pro Football Reference.com , Brady's rate for his first 9 seasons was 92.9. Prior to 2007, his passing rate for his career was 88.4 At present his QB rate is 96.6.
All of those from NFL.com from 2000 through 2008, excluding 2007. Yes, I know he only played 1 game in '00 and '08, but he did have the benefit of studying under championship coaches and players both seasons. The only way to come up with your numbers is to exclude 2000 and 2008, and include 2009. That wasn't the period I was making comparisons to.

When you compare Brady's numbers (even by your method) prior to 2007 to Manning's, they are very close. And, if you drop Manning's rookie season (as you have Brady's), then the numbers are even closer.

It doesn't matter what Brady's present QBR is because Manning hasn't played enough years to have a one-to-one comparison.

All I'm saying is, under normal circumstances, Brady is a far superior QB, but in big game circumstances, Manning has no peers.

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Your figures for Brady are spurious. I am a Giant fan, but I will be the first to admit that Manning is overrated and certainly not elite.
My numbers are exactly what I said they were - Brady's first 9 years. Who even uses words like "spurious"?

There are at least 25 other teams in the NFL that would LOVE to have E. Manning as their QB. That, to me, is the very definition of elite. I would guess there are two, maybe three other franchises that would want anything to do with Coughlin as an HC.

If you're a Giants fan, I would hate to hear you talk about a team you don't like...

“I call it as I see it.”

Since: Jul 09

Retirement City

#10108 Jan 4, 2013
TMD wrote:
<quoted text>
I agree that Cruz is a superior WR, but Nicks is no better. His routes aren't any better and he is injured just as often. It's a toss-up. I choose to go with big play Manningham.
And, once again, you want to take one season and compare it to another guy's entire career. When Randle has played enough seasons to make a valid statistical comparison with Manningham, then I'll have this discussion with you.
<quoted text>
EVERYBODY had great games against Philly this season. And, yes, Hixon is a good receiver, he just has a ways to go to catch up with Manningham's big game acumen. Manningham actually RAN for 3 first downs and was a punt and kickoff returner in college. He's just the more versatile of the two.
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<quoted text>
Your opinion. I guess we'll never know...
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<quoted text>
What does Lombardi have to do with this discussion, and how the heck would you know how he would feel? Let's try to keep this conversation confined to the Giants players and living coaches.
I believe whoever prepares the game plans for the Giants is worn out and out of ideas. A change needs to be made.
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<quoted text>
Once again, your opinion. As I said before, Jacobs needs more touches to be effective, and the 49ers roster already has two great backs and a sensational rookie. There's no room on their roster for Jacobs. The Colts could use a back like him.
Nicks was ahead of Manningham on the depth chart at WR while Mario was with the Giants. That should speak for itself. Nicks consistently had more receptions than Mario every year they were teammates. Manningham never had more than 60 receptions in a season and Nicks has twice exceeded 70 in a season and the emergence of Nicks and Cruz pushed him back to the number 3 receiver while with NY. I will also take Hixon's consistency over Manningham's sporadic heroics.

Let me add that Jacobs needing more touches sounds more like an excuse than a reson for his lackluster performance that kept him on the bench in SF. All those years of wear and tear are starting to show on Jacobs. He is just not the same back he was a few years ago.

Your dissing my inclusion of Vince Lombardi is a red herring and you kmow it. I am certain that no coach would be pleased with Eli's inconsistency.

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TMD

“Look! Up in the sky!”

Since: Dec 06

Columbus, Ohio

#10109 Jan 4, 2013
flbadcatowner wrote:
<quoted text>Nicks was ahead of Manningham on the depth chart at WR while Mario was with the Giants. That should speak for itself. Nicks consistently had more receptions than Mario every year they were teammates. Manningham never had more than 60 receptions in a season and Nicks has twice exceeded 70 in a season and the emergence of Nicks and Cruz pushed him back to the number 3 receiver while with NY. I will also take Hixon's consistency over Manningham's sporadic heroics.
Great! You take the guy that has a bunch of catches, and I'll take the guy who can break a game wide open, and/or win it. Looks like SanFran agrees with me.

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Let me add that Jacobs needing more touches sounds more like an excuse than a reson for his lackluster performance that kept him on the bench in SF. All those years of wear and tear are starting to show on Jacobs. He is just not the same back he was a few years ago.
I never said he was the same back he was years ago. I just said he is the kind of back that needs more touches. He gets stronger towards the end of the game. He never has started strong. And, once again, I'll state that the Giants don't have ANY backs that could start for the 9ers. Not one.

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Your dissing my inclusion of Vince Lombardi is a red herring and you know it. I am certain that no coach would be pleased with Eli's inconsistency.
Your inclusion of a coach you did not know personally, is deceased, and has nothing to do with this conversation, and the fact that you now want to argue this point, is a red herring and YOU know it.

It seems you would rather talk about dead coaches, RBs, and WRs, when this discussion is supposed to be about Coughlin and Manning. Let me know when you want to get back to the original conversation.

“I call it as I see it.”

Since: Jul 09

Retirement City

#10110 Jan 4, 2013
TMD wrote:
<quoted text>
All of those from NFL.com from 2000 through 2008, excluding 2007. Yes, I know he only played 1 game in '00 and '08, but he did have the benefit of studying under championship coaches and players both seasons. The only way to come up with your numbers is to exclude 2000 and 2008, and include 2009. That wasn't the period I was making comparisons to.
When you compare Brady's numbers (even by your method) prior to 2007 to Manning's, they are very close. And, if you drop Manning's rookie season (as you have Brady's), then the numbers are even closer.
It doesn't matter what Brady's present QBR is because Manning hasn't played enough years to have a one-to-one comparison.
All I'm saying is, under normal circumstances, Brady is a far superior QB, but in big game circumstances, Manning has no peers.
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<quoted text>
My numbers are exactly what I said they were - Brady's first 9 years. Who even uses words like "spurious"?
There are at least 25 other teams in the NFL that would LOVE to have E. Manning as their QB. That, to me, is the very definition of elite. I would guess there are two, maybe three other franchises that would want anything to do with Coughlin as an HC.
If you're a Giants fan, I would hate to hear you talk about a team you don't like...
Unfortunately, Manning's performance in "little game" circumstances kept them out of the playoffs. At least 25 teams who would love to have Manning might well be an overly optimistic thing. At least five other tems for certain would not start him over Brees, Rodgers, RG3, Brady, and Ryan while he would have a hard time unseating Rivers and Roethlesberger and a few others. Add to that teams with young promising QBs who have a promising future ahead of them and are likely to be starters for years to come who will only get better with experience. Eli's rate ranked 14th this year among starting QBs which sounds more like middle of the pack to me among the starters. Eli is good, but hardly elite.

Tom Coughlin has had two Super Bowl victories which is two more than most head coaches will ever have. He has a career winning record. Even Vince Lombardi would have had trouble with the Giants this year as they were very mediocre on defense and banged up on offense at some key positions, not to mention having an erratic QB.

I fail to see the revelance of my choice of words to the discussion as it relates to statistics. In arriving at my statistics, I used Pro Football Reference's feature where by clicking on two different years, his first and ninth season, I was able to get a cumulative performance which was much higher than the one you tried to pass off on us and clearly superior to Manning in his first 9 seasons. Brady came on much more strongly at age 30 than Manning has and I suspect Manning has already peaked as a QB. Brady has a higher career rate than Manning's best season.

Tom Brady Passing Statistics for Career Games 2000 to 2008
Games Passing Passing
Year Cmp Att Cmp% Yds TD TD% Int Int% Rate 2000-2008 2301 3653 63.0% 26446 197 5.4 86 2.4 92.9

Brady's 92.9 is definitely at least a step up from Manning's 82.7.

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“I call it as I see it.”

Since: Jul 09

Retirement City

#10111 Jan 4, 2013
Sorry I couldn't get the numbers to fall neatly under their respective headings, but you should be intelligent enough to figure it all out.

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