LeBron gives Cavs 'A' for Williams trade

LeBron gives Cavs 'A' for Williams trade

There are 300 comments on the Akron Beacon Journal story from Aug 14, 2008, titled LeBron gives Cavs 'A' for Williams trade. In it, Akron Beacon Journal reports that:

Half a world away, LeBron James expressed plenty of optimism after hearing that General Manager Danny Ferry pulled off a trade Wednesday to bring in point guard Mo Williams from the Milwaukee Bucks.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at Akron Beacon Journal.

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joe

Cleveland, OH

#286 Aug 26, 2008
alan t wrote:
<quoted text> Ilgauskas deserves praise for not "throwing in the towel?" Why? It's a business. His carrot was tens of millions of future dollars. Once you have a dollar, you want two. Once you have two dollars, you want four. Once you have four dollars, you want eight. Ilgauskas is no different than anybody else. His subsequent reward was a big fat bloated contract far above his value, far above what he would be worth at age 35, far above what he could have possibly gotten from any other team in the United States, let alone any team overseas. Between all the dollars remaining on his contract, and all the dollars remaining on Hughes' contract, Ferry was forced to be a passive bystander when deals became available throughout the league. It had absolutely nothing to do with towels.
Z was going to get the money in his contract and be set for life no matter what. he could have finished that contract off and retired quite easily. have you watched the nba lately? have you seen how many players are content with just collecting paychecks and not earning it? Z coming back from multiple surgeries to be able to play at an nba-level is remarkable. maybe you've never had broken bones in your feet? i have had a few and around the same age as Z had his. my broken bones effectively ended by rec-league career. what Z has done is pretty ridiculous.
alan t

Delaware, OH

#287 Aug 26, 2008
joe wrote:
<quoted text>
Z was going to get the money in his contract and be set for life no matter what. he could have finished that contract off and retired quite easily. have you watched the nba lately? have you seen how many players are content with just collecting paychecks and not earning it? Z coming back from multiple surgeries to be able to play at an nba-level is remarkable. maybe you've never had broken bones in your feet? i have had a few and around the same age as Z had his. my broken bones effectively ended by rec-league career. what Z has done is pretty ridiculous.
He's a hard worker. OK, fine. But so what. Just because he has a work ethic doesn't negate the fact that Ferry did a very stupid thing by bidding against himself. Fans can't have it both ways, they can't scream at Ferry for not doing anything for two years, and in the next breath say that it was proper to give Ilgauskas outrageous money and years for a slightly above-average talent.

And yes, I do think an actual porpoise would have been a better match for Ilgauskas. That's my opinion, and I stand by it. Come to think of it, the porpoise would have been just like Z, tipping the ball off the rim to himself 50 times.
alan t

Delaware, OH

#288 Aug 26, 2008
Oops. That doesn't make sense. I meant an actual porpoise would have been a better match *than* Ilgauskas. Besides, porpoises are kind of cute, don't you think? The porpoise would be loved even more than Z.

Since: Dec 07

Heath, OH

#289 Aug 26, 2008
alan t wrote:
<quoted text> And yes, I do think an actual porpoise would have been a better match for Ilgauskas. That's my opinion, and I stand by it. Come to think of it, the porpoise would have been just like Z, tipping the ball off the rim to himself 50 times.
Ugh, you're a moron and not funny to boot... get a clue buddy.
joe

Cleveland, OH

#290 Aug 26, 2008
alan t wrote:
<quoted text> He's a hard worker. OK, fine. But so what. Just because he has a work ethic doesn't negate the fact that Ferry did a very stupid thing by bidding against himself. Fans can't have it both ways, they can't scream at Ferry for not doing anything for two years, and in the next breath say that it was proper to give Ilgauskas outrageous money and years for a slightly above-average talent.
And yes, I do think an actual porpoise would have been a better match for Ilgauskas. That's my opinion, and I stand by it. Come to think of it, the porpoise would have been just like Z, tipping the ball off the rim to himself 50 times.
in my opinion, the moon is made out of cheese. im standing by that.
alan t

Delaware, OH

#291 Aug 26, 2008
joe wrote:
<quoted text>
in my opinion, the moon is made out of cheese. im standing by that.
At least the moon was worth the full weight of its contract.
King James

Louisville, OH

#292 Aug 26, 2008
The Z today...
Is very much Overrated.

He has ZERO low post moves...
When he gets the ball in the post...
He either travels or puts up some kind of a sweeping hook shot that I cant figure out...

Z is also one of the worst Def. center in the game..

He is a good mid-range spot up shooter...

Now if the above puts him in the "top 10 centers playing today"... Well... o.k.... I'll take your word for it... I dont have the list in front of me....

But I think Alans point is this...

Lets say he is in the top 10 centers today...
That doesnt mean he is a top 10 fit for this team...

What alan is saying is...
A Center that can get up and down the court, and/or Defend the basket, and/or have some low post moves, may not be better than Z per say.... But that guy would be a better fit to play with LBJ...

The problem with the cavs the last couple years are real simple to see...

They had NO PG....
They had NO low post scoring....

Now we got Mo... Lets hope he works out... Cant be worse than what we had...

We still have NO low post scoring...

Botton line on Z...

If we could get rid of him for a guy that brings a little D, and has some low post scoring ability... That guy may not be better (per say) than Z.... But it would make the cavs a better team...

Now...
Lets move on to Football...

Someone please post a good Football thread going on.... I cant seem to find any.... Worth a darn...
joe

Cleveland, OH

#293 Aug 26, 2008
King James wrote:
The Z today...
Is very much Overrated.
He has ZERO low post moves...
When he gets the ball in the post...
He either travels or puts up some kind of a sweeping hook shot that I cant figure out...
Z is also one of the worst Def. center in the game..
He is a good mid-range spot up shooter...
Now if the above puts him in the "top 10 centers playing today"... Well... o.k.... I'll take your word for it... I dont have the list in front of me....
But I think Alans point is this...
Lets say he is in the top 10 centers today...
That doesnt mean he is a top 10 fit for this team...
What alan is saying is...
A Center that can get up and down the court, and/or Defend the basket, and/or have some low post moves, may not be better than Z per say.... But that guy would be a better fit to play with LBJ...
The problem with the cavs the last couple years are real simple to see...
They had NO PG....
They had NO low post scoring....
Now we got Mo... Lets hope he works out... Cant be worse than what we had...
We still have NO low post scoring...
Botton line on Z...
If we could get rid of him for a guy that brings a little D, and has some low post scoring ability... That guy may not be better (per say) than Z.... But it would make the cavs a better team...
Now...
Lets move on to Football...
Someone please post a good Football thread going on.... I cant seem to find any.... Worth a darn...
i think what alan is actually saying is, "I can't see the forest through the trees since my head is up by butt"
alan t

Delaware, OH

#294 Aug 26, 2008
joe wrote:
<quoted text>
i think what alan is actually saying is, "I can't see the forest through the trees since my head is up by butt"
Classy. And, it's "forest for the trees." It's not "through the trees." If you're going to write something juvenile and stupid, at least correctly get the part that's meant to be intelligent.
edward

Cleveland, OH

#295 Aug 27, 2008
alan t wrote:
<quoted text> Classy. And, it's "forest for the trees." It's not "through the trees." If you're going to write something juvenile and stupid, at least correctly get the part that's meant to be intelligent.
based on most of the things you post on here, alan, you're not much of a judge of class. however, you are certainly an expert on posts that are juvenile and stupid :)
and for the record, it's either "for the trees" or "through the trees." both are technically correct.
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/can%27t_see_the...
alan t

Delaware, OH

#296 Aug 27, 2008
edward wrote:
<quoted text>
based on most of the things you post on here, alan, you're not much of a judge of class. however, you are certainly an expert on posts that are juvenile and stupid :)
and for the record, it's either "for the trees" or "through the trees." both are technically correct.
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/can%27t_see_the...
Both are not "technically correct," as you put it. All somebody did is post a nonexistent "alternative" for the people like you who've botched it over the years.
Milos Babic

Alameda, CA

#297 Aug 30, 2008
alan t. Yawn. Same old arguments.
Z is overpaid. He's not. He's a top 15 center in the NBA, with two All Star games under his belt. I'd put him at 13. Of the twelve ahead of him, only Camby, Kaman, and Bogut are paid less than Ilgauskas, and several behind him are paid more. Kaman and Bogut are both about to start long term extensions, and will both be paid more than Z. So really, we're talking about Z being paid more than one center in the NBA that outproduces him. If "overpaid" has anything to do with how other comparable players at his position are paid, Z is simply not.
The alan t claims than the length of Z's contract is "outrageous". Z has one year plus a player option left on his current deal. He will play his final year on the contract at age 34. We've established that Z's current level of production is right in line with what he should be paid. Since his numbers aren't declining - in fact, we saw a career high in rebounds from Ilgauskas last year - it stands to reason we should expect similar production from Z in 2008-2009. That leaves only his player option year in question. Even if Z slows down this year, and picks up his player option, he will be an expiring contract - I think by now we've all figured out what those are worth in today's NBA. It's likely he'd be very attractive as a stopgap big man for a team looking to clear cap space - or maybe be that guy for Cleveland. It's hard to see how the length of Z's contract has been a problem at all, despite alan t's constant whining.
The alan t will roll out his "Ferry bid against himself!" argument. Which is kind of ridiculous, considering Z's contract is neither bloated nor too long. If Ferry "bid against himself", that would naturally imply that Z had this awful contract out of line with what other similar players were making. But Z was signed for a price right in line with his market value. Alan figures that since their weren't that many teams looking for a center, Z should have been signed for any lowball number Ferry laid out there. Let me ask this - when does that ever actually work?
Then alan goes to the 15% trade kicker. The point of signing Ilgauskas was to keep him in Cleveland - not trade him. It was certainly a concession to Z, who wanted stability over dollars in his contract. It only mattered if we needed to trade Z, which we haven't need to do, because he's played at an acceptable level for the money he's paid, and his contract hasn't big enough to hinder the team from making moves. Trade kicker? So what?
Then alan goes to the "Z is a horrible fit with Lebron" argument. This approach, at least, is subjective, and not as easily dismissed by things like fact and reason. One could certainly think that the Cavs should have some athletic, running center out there on the break with Lebron, so the Cavs can become the Suns east. But I argue that Z is a fine fit for the Cavs. History shows that most running teams don't win titles, and the Cavs are built in the image of the Spurs, not the Suns. Mike Brown's system is a slow down, defensive, half court oriented game. That's a pretty good fit for Z, who has shifted his offensive game from down low (some have posted on here that he has no post game - did they not watch any Cavs games pre-Lebron? Z is well know for having as many post moves as any center in the NBA, he just is rarely put down low anymore) to accomodate Lebron. His consistent mid-range jumpshot forces centers out of the key, clearing room for Lebron to operate. And Z is very good at cleaning up Lebron misses.
Milos Babic

Alameda, CA

#298 Aug 30, 2008
Then alan usually rolls out some mediocre player like Nesterovic and makes the claim that Z is no better than him(or a porpoise, or whatever). It's easy to research the numbers, or just common sense, and see that a player like the recently used Nesterovic has had nowhere near the career of Z (not by per game averages, not per minute averages, not by total production), but it doesn't matter, alan uses the player as a comparison anyway. He'll actually do this to spew his disdain for any player acquired by Danny Ferry, creating comparisons that only work in "alantania" or whatever unhappy fantasy land he lives in.
Did I miss anything?

Since: Dec 07

New Albany, OH

#299 Sep 1, 2008
Wow... clear, concise beat down.

Can't argue with facts, but he sure can try.
King James

Akron, OH

#300 Sep 1, 2008
Milos Babic wrote:
alan t. Yawn. Same old arguments.
Z is overpaid. He's not. He's a top 15 center in final year on the contract at age 34. We've established that Z's current level of production is right in line with what he should be paid. Since his numbers aren't declining - in fact, we saw a career high in rebounds from Ilgauskas last year - it stands to reason we should expect similar production from Z in 2008-2009. That leaves only his player option year in question. Even if Z slows down this year, and picks up his player option, he will be an expiring contract - I think by now we've all figured out what those are worth in today's NBA. It's likely he'd be very attractive as a stopgap big man for a team looking to clear cap space - or maybe be that guy for Cleveland. It's hard to see how the length of Z's contract has been a problem at all, despite alan t's constant whining.
The alan t will roll out his "Ferry bid against himself!" argument. Which is kind of ridiculous, considering Z's contract is neither bloated nor too long. If Ferry "bid against himself", that would naturally imply that Z had this awful contract out of line with what other similar players were making. But Z was signed for a price right in line with his market value. Alan figures that since their weren't that many teams looking for a center, Z should have been signed for any lowball number Ferry laid out there. Let me ask this - when does that ever actually work?
Then alan goes to the 15% trade kicker. The point of signing Ilgauskas was to keep him in Cleveland - not trade him. It was certainly a concession to Z, who wanted stability over dollars in his contract. It only mattered if we needed to trade Z, which we haven't need to do, because he's played at an acceptable level for center out there on the break with Lebron, so the Cavs can become the Suns east. But I argue that Z is a fine fit for the Cavs. History shows that most running teams don't win titles, and the Cavs are built in the image of the Spurs, not the Suns. Mike Brown's system is a slow down, defensive, half court oriented game. That's a pretty good fit for Z, who has shifted his offensive game from down low (some have posted on here that he has no post game - did they not watch any Cavs games pre-Lebron? Z is well know for having as many post moves as any center in the NBA, he just is rarely put down low anymore) to accomodate Lebron. His consistent mid-range jumpshot forces centers out of the key, clearing room for Lebron to operate. And Z is very good at cleaning up Lebron misses.
Z had very good low post moves...

About... 4-5 years ago...

Lets do this...

Karl Malone was great at running the floor.

I mean... Look at how he did it with Stockton....

Lets sign him...

I mean.. If he could do it at one time years ago...

I'm sure he can still do it now.
right?

Look.
Just watch when Z gets the ball in the post...

It would be pretty darn comical to watch if I wasnt a cavs fan..

Its either a travel, or a running sweeping god only knows hook shot that usually doesnt even draw rim....

If you dont believe me... Go back and watch last years playoff games...

Oh, and yes... Z does still get plays in the post...

But even Mike Brown (and this is saying something) can see how bad Z is in the post...

Thats why he doesnt get many plays there anymore... Thank God...

Look guys...

I loved Z about 5 years ago...

But let it go man..

He's washed up..... Move on.
Milos Babic

Alameda, CA

#301 Sep 2, 2008
King James wrote:
<quoted text>
Z had very good low post moves...
About... 4-5 years ago...
Lets do this...
Karl Malone was great at running the floor.
I mean... Look at how he did it with Stockton....
Lets sign him...
I mean.. If he could do it at one time years ago...
I'm sure he can still do it now.
right?
Look.
Just watch when Z gets the ball in the post...
It would be pretty darn comical to watch if I wasnt a cavs fan..
Its either a travel, or a running sweeping god only knows hook shot that usually doesnt even draw rim....
If you dont believe me... Go back and watch last years playoff games...
Oh, and yes... Z does still get plays in the post...
But even Mike Brown (and this is saying something) can see how bad Z is in the post...
Thats why he doesnt get many plays there anymore... Thank God...
Look guys...
I loved Z about 5 years ago...
But let it go man..
He's washed up..... Move on.
Z didn't really shoot that hook last year. Z down low usually does an up an under move with a combination of pump fakes - usually to his right (the hook was trying to add a shot going the other direction, but it was ugly, and I think screwed him up for about half the 2006-2007 - can't argue with you about that one!), or a turn around jump shot. He does them each about twice a game. There's a reason why they still, to this day, tend to start each half going to him - they want to establish him there, and he can be effective. But they don't keep going to it because he's more effective drawing players out of the paint and spotting up or setting picks with Lebron. THAT'S what Mike Brown sees. He's hardly washed up -14.1ppg, 9.3 rpg is very respectable, and the rebounding is a career high. And he actually cut down on the traveling a little last year, too.

I do think we will continue to see Z as a jump shooter over the next two years, though. With Wallace on board there's even less reason to station Z in the paint, and Mo Williams gives the Cavs another passer that can probably set Z up pretty well.

I don't see any reason to watch the playoff games again, although I still have a couple on TiVo. He shot 10 shots a game. I hesitate to go back and check the shot charts, but I'd be willing to bet of those 10 shots a game, more than half were spot up jumpers or tips. That leaves two post plays a half. And he turned the ball over less than twice a game - hardly a barrage of traveling violations.

Anyway, it's late, and truth is, I don't deny Z's not the same player down low he was ten years ago - my previous post was probably about of an overstatement. I just think he has more in the tank left in the post than he's really showing in the current system, and that's still an effective offensive player.
tom

Cleveland, OH

#302 Sep 2, 2008
King James wrote:
<quoted text>
Z had very good low post moves...
About... 4-5 years ago...
Lets do this...
Karl Malone was great at running the floor.
I mean... Look at how he did it with Stockton....
Lets sign him...
I mean.. If he could do it at one time years ago...
I'm sure he can still do it now.
right?
Look.
Just watch when Z gets the ball in the post...
It would be pretty darn comical to watch if I wasnt a cavs fan..
Its either a travel, or a running sweeping god only knows hook shot that usually doesnt even draw rim....
If you dont believe me... Go back and watch last years playoff games...
Oh, and yes... Z does still get plays in the post...
But even Mike Brown (and this is saying something) can see how bad Z is in the post...
Thats why he doesnt get many plays there anymore... Thank God...
Look guys...
I loved Z about 5 years ago...
But let it go man..
He's washed up..... Move on.
Z is washed up? not quite. donyell marshall? washed up. juwan howard? washed up. eric snow? washed up. Z is not washed up. is he as effective as he was 3-4 years ago? No. but no he is not washed up. 3 years from now? yes, i think he will be washed up.
King James

Canton, OH

#303 Sep 2, 2008
tom wrote:
<quoted text>
Z is washed up? not quite. donyell marshall? washed up. juwan howard? washed up. eric snow? washed up. Z is not washed up. is he as effective as he was 3-4 years ago? No. but no he is not washed up. 3 years from now? yes, i think he will be washed up.
Donyell Marshall, and E Snow are not washed up... They are out of the league... Or if they arent.. They should be...

You cant be a washed up NBA player when you dont play in the NBA.

What I'm saying is... For a current starter in the NBA... That was once a solid player.... He is washed up...

Now look... Before you start saying Marshall is on some roster... Just stop yourself... If Marshall is on a roster its the 12th man...

That dude should be an asst. coach at some high school now...

You are getting washed up, and washed out confused.... LOL.

Z is washed up...
Snow is washed out...
Milos Babic

Alameda, CA

#304 Sep 3, 2008
King James wrote:
<quoted text>
Donyell Marshall, and E Snow are not washed up... They are out of the league... Or if they arent.. They should be...
You cant be a washed up NBA player when you dont play in the NBA.
What I'm saying is... For a current starter in the NBA... That was once a solid player.... He is washed up...
Now look... Before you start saying Marshall is on some roster... Just stop yourself... If Marshall is on a roster its the 12th man...
That dude should be an asst. coach at some high school now...
You are getting washed up, and washed out confused.... LOL.
Z is washed up...
Snow is washed out...
Nope. Not out of the league. Marshall was just signed to a guaranteed contract as a shooter for the Sixers, not as a 12th man. But for the record, that guy is washed up!

Z=14ppg, 9.3rpg. The rebounding is about 20th in the entire NBA. That's a higher average than Kevin Garnett, Pau Gasol, Amare Stoudamire, Chris Bosh, and Dirk Nowitzki - all of whom played more minutes per game than Ilgauskas. Z was the 11th best rebounding center in the NBA last year (remember, Stoudamire a started 51 games at center before the Shaq trade. Z also outrebounded Shaq, but had the benefit of a couple more minutes a game.) Z was also the 8th highest scoring center in the entire NBA last year. How can he be washed up if he out produces 2/3 of the starters at his position? The short answer is that he's not.
tom

Cleveland, OH

#305 Sep 3, 2008
King James wrote:
<quoted text>
Donyell Marshall, and E Snow are not washed up... They are out of the league... Or if they arent.. They should be...
You cant be a washed up NBA player when you dont play in the NBA.
What I'm saying is... For a current starter in the NBA... That was once a solid player.... He is washed up...
Now look... Before you start saying Marshall is on some roster... Just stop yourself... If Marshall is on a roster its the 12th man...
That dude should be an asst. coach at some high school now...
You are getting washed up, and washed out confused.... LOL.
Z is washed up...
Snow is washed out...
eric snow is still on the cavs' roster and marshall just signed with the sixers.
Z is still not washed up.

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