Insane Clown Posse fans arrested for ...

Insane Clown Posse fans arrested for attacks in Washington stat...

There are 232 comments on the Macleans.ca story from Jul 14, 2006, titled Insane Clown Posse fans arrested for attacks in Washington stat.... In it, Macleans.ca reports that:

Seven young people, apparently fans of the rap/hip-hop group Insane Clown Posse, have been arrested in a series of violent attacks at a suburban Tacoma park and police have issued arrest warrants for a couple ...

Join the discussion below, or Read more at Macleans.ca.

Jokers Smile

United States

#236 Jan 13, 2009
As for the defining of the juggalo way. Well that's the thing about an anarchic society, you can't start defining things and creating rules or it'll cease to be. There can't be a definition for what a juggalo is, because then it becomes exclusive. There are no standards. Its a shared understanding, not a status. Thats the problem with the ordered mind, it needs things to be defined and controlled before it can accept them. Thats why anarchy will never work on a large scale, because people crave order. We can't define what a juggalo is. We can't organize ourselves and work to better the world because then we'd just be one more failing religion or pointless organization. Juggalos aren't trying to save the world, and why should we? We're just family. We have our own lives and our own goals. We help each other out but we're not out to save anyone because no one needs to be saved. If someone wants to be a juggalo then they must come it the idea themselves. No one is going to hand it to them in bold print and no one should. We're juggalos because we came to understand what a juggalo is on our own, no one gave it to us and so no one can take it away. If I see a young juggalo in need of guidance, I'll help him out like any juggalo should, but I'm not going to go looking for one. If theres a juggalo out there in need of help then they need to take the steps needed to help themselves. If they can't, then their choice has been made.
Definition and organization aren't going to help the juggalo movement. True peace is found in the acceptance of chaos, not the pursuit of order.
We're not trying to make a better world, fuck the world. The world will go on and change with or without us, it certainly doesn't need us to make it "better". We are born of this world and are a part of this world, we are not so arrogant as to believe it is in need of improvement. We're in this together, we help each other out. There's no improving this world so why pursue such madness? All we can improve is ourselves and help those around us to do the same.
As for changing the world. Pressing a button can change the world. Throwing a rock can change the world. Killing a man can change the world. There are a great many absurd and pointless things that can change the world. Our world is a changing world as it is, so why strive to change it? If anything, these young juggalos need to see that they can change themselves, not the world. Let the rest of the mad world pursue the impossible task of shaping the world in their own image and instead focus on the only thing we know to be real, ourselves and those with whom we share this world.
Perhaps I don't speak for the rest of the juggalos, maybe I'm alone in this view. Even so, this is what I think being a juggalo is about, even if other juggalos might not agree, and thats the point. We don't all have to agree or think the same way, just as members of a family don't. With family its shared blood, with juggalos its shared understanding.
Jokers Smile

United States

#237 Jan 13, 2009
Its not so much a "juggalo-ness" as much as an understanding of where we stand. If you know someone is a juggalo, then you know you have a common ground with this person. You may not know them personally, but you know they'll treat you with respect and they'll be real with you because you're both juggalos. We're all in this together, and in a world of masks and thieves, this sort of unwritten kinship is all too necessary. Of course even this isn't fool proof. Any asshole can put on an ICP shirt, so theres no guarantee that someone is a juggalo simply because they wear the hatchet. This is an uncertain world. Even so, knowing that there are people out there who would have your back, give you a ride, or just woop at you from across the parking lot is a small security we all enjoy. Its not a juggalo-ness we have, its an understanding we share.

As for being misunderstood. As I said before, its not about being misunderstood, its about not caring whether we're understood or not. It makes no difference to us if we're understood by others or not, that won't change who we are. A lot of people strive their whole lives to be understood by the "rest of the world", while others use the misunderstanding of others to fuel their selfish pride. Juggalos do neither. We're understood by the juggalo family and that's all we need.

As for the idea of ICP exploiting the juggalo movement. That's easy to assume. It may not have been their plan to create this society, but they certainly aren't taking advantage of it. I agree that they probably had no hand in making us what we are today and it was largely luck and consequence that did so. They're not profits, they just happened to start the idea. I think they're just going with the flow of their own creation, creating more rhymes, not to make money, but to feed the movement they unknowingly started. You can really tell how surprised they are at what they've started in their later music, especially in Shangra-la. They've become students of their own teachings in a way, and they know it. They've never claimed to be profits or leaders, they've always been juggalos plain and simple.

Even so, they still started the movement, even if that wasn't their intent, so you gotta give em props for that. Plus they bust some excellent rhymes.
Jokers Smile

United States

#238 Jan 13, 2009
I'm glad this is getting interesting.

Its not so much a "juggalo-ness" as much as an understanding of where we stand. If you know someone is a juggalo, then you know you have a common ground with this person. You may not know them personally, but you know they'll treat you with respect and they'll be real with you because you're both juggalos. We're all in this together, and in a world of masks and thieves, this sort of unwritten kinship is all too necessary. Of course even this isn't fool proof. Any asshole can put on an ICP shirt, so theres no guarantee that someone is a juggalo simply because they wear the hatchet. This is an uncertain world. Even so, knowing that there are people out there who would have your back, give you a ride, or just woop at you from across the parking lot is a small security we all enjoy. Its not a juggalo-ness we have, its an understanding we share.

As for being misunderstood. As I said before, its not about being misunderstood, its about not caring whether we're understood or not. It makes no difference to us if we're understood by others or not, that won't change who we are. A lot of people strive their whole lives to be understood by the "rest of the world", while others use the misunderstanding of others to fuel their selfish pride. Juggalos do neither. We're understood by the juggalo family and that's all we need.

As for the idea of ICP exploiting the juggalo movement. That's easy to assume. It may not have been their plan to create this society, but they certainly aren't taking advantage of it. I agree that they probably had no hand in making us what we are today and it was largely luck and consequence that did so. They're not profits, they just happened to start the idea. I think they're just going with the flow of their own creation, creating more rhymes, not to make money, but to feed the movement they unknowingly started. You can really tell how surprised they are at what they've started in their later music, especially in Shangra-la. They've become students of their own teachings in a way, and they know it. They've never claimed to be profits or leaders, they've always been juggalos plain and simple.

Even so, they still started the movement, even if that wasn't their intent, so you gotta give em props for that. Plus they bust some excellent rhymes.

As for the defining of the juggalo way. Well that's the thing about an anarchic society, you can't start defining things and creating rules or it'll cease to be. There can't be a definition for what a juggalo is, because then it becomes exclusive. There are no standards. Its a shared understanding, not a status. Thats the problem with the ordered mind, it needs things to be defined and controlled before it can accept them. Thats why anarchy will never work on a large scale, because people crave order. We can't define what a juggalo is. We can't organize ourselves and work to better the world because then we'd just be one more failing religion or pointless organization. Juggalos aren't trying to save the world, and why should we? We're just family. We have our own lives and our own goals. We help each other out but we're not out to save anyone because no one needs to be saved. If someone wants to be a juggalo then they must come it the idea themselves. No one is going to hand it to them in bold print and no one should. We're juggalos because we came to understand what a juggalo is on our own, no one gave it to us and so no one can take it away. If I see a young juggalo in need of guidance, I'll help him out like any juggalo should, but I'm not going to go looking for one. If theres a juggalo out there in need of help then they need to take the steps needed to help themselves. If they can't, then their choice has been made.

Definition and organization aren't going to help the juggalo movement. True peace is found in the acceptance of chaos, not the pursuit of order.
troy luginbill

Dravosburg, PA

#239 Jan 13, 2009
jokers smile, you are right this is finally getting interesting. I hope other Juggalos are reading this and actually thinking about what being a Juggalo actually is.

I get what you are saying about the trust between Juggalos. I am not sure I would share your security within the Juggalo world given the acts of some of those that identify themselves as Juggalos, there seem to be safer families one can be a part of, but I do understand. Thank you for putting it in words non-juggalos can relate to.

Looking at these boards I wonder how many feel the same way you do about their role in life and the role of ICP in their lives. Your take on being a Juggalo and how ICP relates to it seems to be a much more self determined active choice. I applaud this. I applaud the idea of self determination within any philosophy or religion. I abhor the idea of "do it because I said it is right" which pervades so many "families" these days (yes you can read churches into that word as well as gangs). I would certainly say that joe and joey are now along for the ride, and I have never once seen them claim prophesy in anything other than their songs. I am actually unsure as to wether they themselves understand much of what you guys are doing. However I have seen many posts on these boards in which many Juggalos do look to joe and joey as prophets, claiming to have had the visions of the dark carnival before they even started ICP. Many Juggalos are also looking to the family as a place for acceptance and a desire to be understood in a world that they don't understand. That is why they are upset at being stereotyped. If they truly didn't care they wouldn't complain about being marginalized. In the immortal words of Buddha when he was accused of being a false prophet his reply was "so-why should you care and more importantly why should I. Your opinion of me does nothing to change who I am."
troy luginbill

Dravosburg, PA

#240 Jan 13, 2009
(Cont.)
Your definition of anarchy sounds more like hinayana/theraveda buddhism than anarchy. It is up to no one but the individual to seek and find paradise, only they can find it so do not try to find it for them.
Only 2 problems ever existed with this type of buddhism (which is the buddhism buddha preached). 1. Most people didn't get it, or didn't want to exert the effort themselves. 2. Unfortunately for people to begin to do good acts they need to be led to them taught how to do them-it is not that people are not inherently good or evil, they are just inherently ignorant. Thus Mahayana buddhism was created and the idea of the bohdisativa was born.
Buddhas sole goal was to find a way to escape the sorrowful acts that true anarchy created.
So this is where I begin to disagree. If most other Juggalos do not really understand what being a Juggalo really means or that it is somehow more than just "loving psycopathic records, drinking faygo and being down with the clown" (recent post from another thread) then it is the responsibility to those Juggalos (such as yourself) that do have some understanding to educate them. And if you truly believe the idea that being a juggalo is more of a state of being than a set of values, it is helping those juggalos that are not aware of the difference to see that difference. To not do so would be to actually be a pointless organization or a failing religion. And yes, it would be a very difficult thing to do as people will try to lie, cheat and steal your words.
With this in mind, just the idea of calling oneself a Juggalo begins to remove the apparent anarchic nature of the movement. A word requires a definition in the human mind. This is one of the primary arguments of buddhism-the coalescence of an idea through definition becomes equally as real as physical matter because of the reactions the idea engenders among us. Thus the final step towards nirvana, letting go of that reaction and substituting your choice of reaction. The quote "I reject your reality and substitute my own" is a great summation of this ideal. Of course in Buddhism that substitution is with the concept of paradise. Buddha never claimed he was anything, he just said he found the path to paradise and that anyone could follow.
troy luginbill

Dravosburg, PA

#241 Jan 13, 2009
(Cont.-disregard duplicate post above.)
With this in mind, just the idea of calling oneself a Juggalo begins to remove the apparent anarchic nature of the movement. A word requires a definition in the human mind. This is one of the primary arguments of buddhism-the coalescence of an idea through definition becomes equally as real as physical matter because of the reactions the idea engenders among us. Thus the final step towards nirvana, letting go of that reaction and substituting your choice of reaction. The quote "I reject your reality and substitute my own" is a great summation of this ideal. Of course in Buddhism that substitution is with the concept of paradise. Buddha never claimed he was anything, he just said he found the path to paradise and that anyone could follow.

As a definition is needed for Juggalos,(yes even by Juggalos-cause if they didn't need the definition then the word would not exist) then it cannot be considered choatic anarchy. Anarchy exists all around us at all levels. The world works through anarchic, meaningless acts that drastically affect our lives with not just pointless disregard to what we want but also apparent and total apathy that we were hurt, happen all the time. Crime, abuse, death, violence, sickness, even simple misunderstanding create an ideal of marginalization when a society is incapable of responding to its members emotional needs. This is what ICP has seemingly touched in many that call themselves Juggalos. This way when the chaos of the world touches a Juggalo then they feel there is a family that will come to them in their time of emotional need, to illustrate to them that some order exists in an uncaring anarchy of a world.

The simple fact is that anarchy is best represented by a virus that decimates an entire culture. Who lives and dies has nothing to do with anything other than sheer luck. Order is represented by a family such as the Juggalos (or an artist such as ICP) who seek to inject justification into the random hurt of the world. Atheists are closer to anarchy than Juggalos. There is no meaning to an action for an atheist other than what the person acting gives it.

So no, I reject your reality of juggalos representing anarchy and substitute it with the reality that Juggalos represent a movement towards order and understanding for a group of people that do feel mis-understood, even if the only question they are asking is "why me".

Finally please don't be upset with all of those pointless organizations, and meaningless religions. At some point (usually the beginning) they had a point and meaning and did help people, usually of all types. It is when they were seen to have power that the truly evil among us worked very hard to either destroy them or co-opt them for their own ends. So you have to ask yourself, would you rather have a short time of goodness, or none at all?
Jokers Smile

United States

#242 Jan 14, 2009
Very interesting indeed.

I can't claim to know how other juggalos view themselves and the juggalo way, nor can I claim it to be right or wrong. Not every juggalo sees themselves as a juggalo the same way I do. To some its just about liking ICP or psychopathic, to others its about going to the Gatherings and supporting the band, to others its a commitment to the family, and still others may view it as something else entirely. Does that mean someone is right and everyone else is wrong? I would say not, and this is only because the term juggalo is undefined. If someone actually stood up and tried to define what a juggalo is, the juggalo world would be divided by conflict. Suddenly there would be a right and wrong answer, a correct and incorrect juggalo way. The world would be divided into good and evil and the usual madness would ensue.

While I agree that many of those who call themselves juggalos are in need of guidance, such as those who've wronged you and act as criminals, I don't think the problem can be solved by dividing the juggalo family with definitions and standards. They need to be guided individually.

As for anarchy. I can see a similarity with Hinayana/theraveda. But the problem is, it seems to blame anarchy only for the sorrowful acts. What about the chance miracles? What about the chance happening that lead us to understand ourselves? Anarchy doesn't just create sin, it creates good as well. The ordered mind sees chaos as the problem. If things didn't change they couldn't get worse. The problem is they couldn't get better either. The same chaos that takes a life, betters another. This is the reality of freedom. This is a free world because it is a changing world. Chaos is freedom, order is control. Does this mean all things must be completely chaotic in order to be free? Of course not. Order exists within chaos. If it didn't it wouldn't really be chaos, for chaos is not all one way. This existence is built upon chaos, with all its random injustices and absurdities. This is difficult to accept for most people, as the human mind is an order based machine. Buddhism believes in a universal rightness, I don't. Its all absurd, from the miracles to the tragedies.
Jokers Smile

United States

#243 Jan 14, 2009
As for calling oneself a juggalo. You could say that the true juggalo is not one who calls himself a juggalo, but is one who does not need to call himself a juggalo. I don't have to wear the hatchet to be a juggalo. I don't have to have the word tattooed on myself or have it written on my shirt. I wear the hatchet because I support the band, not because I'm a juggalo. If someone thinks they need to have it written on their forehead for it to be true then it certainly isn't.

With this in mind, the anarchic nature is not lost, as we don't need to call ourselves a juggalo, its just an accepted truth. The word does not need to be defined for it defies definition. Its a formless form. A word with no definition. Does that mean it has no form? Of course not. It has many. What it doesn't have is a set form, an unchanging definition. Its a chaotic term for an anarchic society.

As for having order in a chaotic world. Perhaps. Some juggalos might seek the family for this reason, but not all of us. The juggalo family is not an oasis of order in a chaotic world, its simply a network we belong to and can use and contribute to freely. We aren't gathering together for warmth in a cold world, we're each living best we can where ever that might be. We're together without having to be near, we're by ourselves but not alone, we're connected without contact. Its an anarchic system for an anarchic world.

Order is the problem, chaos is the answer. Those who seek to inject justification for random absurdity are simply mad. There is no justification, there is no "why". To pursue such an ideal is to pursue madness. To ask "why me?" is madness. There is no reason why. How could there be? Only when this is accepted can the mind rid itself of this insanity. People have ground themselves into dust pursuing the "why". This is a chaotic existence, so the acceptance of chaos is the only way to understand it.

You asked, "would you rather have a short time of goodness or none at all?" To that I say such goodness is the product of madness, nothing more. I do not support madness, especially the pleasant madness. Seek peace, seek chaos, seek acceptance. Establish peace within your self, not in the world. This can never be taken away from you. Religions come and go. Ideas fade into obscurity. They are no more crucial than any other pattern in nature. Anyone and anything can be a teacher. I have no conflict with these structures, only the madness they inspire.

Of course these are all my own views, and certainly not my beliefs. I am a questioner through and through. I cant speak for all juggalos, and how could I? This is just what I think.
Jokers Smile

United States

#244 Jan 14, 2009
(cont..)

As for calling oneself a juggalo. You could say that the true juggalo is not one who calls himself a juggalo, but is one who does not need to call himself a juggalo. I don't have to wear the hatchet to be a juggalo. I don't have to have the word tattooed on myself or have it written on my shirt. I wear the hatchet because I support the band, not because I'm a juggalo. If someone thinks they need to have it written on their forehead for it to be true then it certainly isn't.

With this in mind, the anarchic nature is not lost, as we don't need to call ourselves a juggalo, its just an accepted truth. The word does not need to be defined for it defies definition. Its a formless form. A word with no definition. Does that mean it has no form? Of course not. It has many. What it doesn't have is a set form, an unchanging definition. Its a chaotic term for an anarchic society.

As for having order in a chaotic world. Perhaps. Some juggalos might seek the family for this reason, but not all of us. The juggalo family is not an oasis of order in a chaotic world, its simply a network we belong to and can use and contribute to freely. We aren't gathering together for warmth in a cold world, we're each living best we can where ever that might be. We're together without having to be near, we're by ourselves but not alone, we're connected without contact. Its an anarchic system for an anarchic world.

Order is the problem, chaos is the answer. Those who seek to inject justification for random absurdity are simply mad. There is no justification, there is no "why". To pursue such an ideal is to pursue madness. To ask "why me?" is madness. There is no reason why. How could there be? Only when this is accepted can the mind rid itself of this insanity. People have ground themselves into dust pursuing the "why". This is a chaotic existence, so the acceptance of chaos is the only way to understand it.

You asked, "would you rather have a short time of goodness or none at all?" To that I say such goodness is the product of madness, nothing more. I do not support madness, especially the pleasant madness. Seek peace, seek chaos, seek acceptance. Establish peace within your self, not in the world. This can never be taken away from you. Religions come and go. Ideas fade into obscurity. They are no more crucial than any other pattern in nature. Anyone and anything can be a teacher. I have no conflict with these structures, only the madness they inspire.

Of course these are all my own views, and certainly not my beliefs. I am a questioner through and through. I cant speak for all juggalos, and how could I? this is just what I think.
Jokers Smile cont

United States

#245 Jan 14, 2009
(cont)
As for calling oneself a juggalo. You could say that the true juggalo is not one who calls himself a juggalo, but is one who does not need to call himself a juggalo. I don't have to wear the hatchet to be a juggalo. I don't have to have the word tattooed on myself or have it written on my shirt. I wear the hatchet because I support the band, not because I'm a juggalo. If someone thinks they need to have it written on their forehead for it to be true then it certainly isn't.
With this in mind, the anarchic nature is not lost, as we don't need to call ourselves a juggalo, its just an accepted truth. The word does not need to be defined for it defies definition. Its a formless form. A word with no definition. Does that mean it has no form? Of course not. It has many. What it doesn't have is a set form, an unchanging definition. Its a chaotic term for an anarchic society.
As for having order in a chaotic world. Perhaps. Some juggalos might seek the family for this reason, but not all of us. The juggalo family is not an oasis of order in a chaotic world, its simply a network we belong to and can use and contribute to freely. We aren't gathering together for warmth in a cold world, we're each living best we can where ever that might be. We're together without having to be near, we're by ourselves but not alone, we're connected without contact. Its an anarchic system for an anarchic world.
Order is the problem, chaos is the answer. Those who seek to inject justification for random absurdity are simply mad. There is no justification, there is no "why". To pursue such an ideal is to pursue madness. To ask "why me?" is madness. There is no reason why. How could there be? Only when this is accepted can the mind rid itself of this insanity. People have ground themselves into dust pursuing the "why". This is a chaotic existence, so the acceptance of chaos is the only way to understand it.
You asked, "would you rather have a short time of goodness or none at all?" To that I say such goodness is the product of madness, nothing more. I do not support madness, especially the pleasant madness. Seek peace, seek chaos, seek acceptance. Establish peace within your self, not in the world. This can never be taken away from you. Religions come and go. Ideas fade into obscurity. They are no more crucial than any other pattern in nature. Anyone and anything can be a teacher. I have no conflict with these structures, only the madness they inspire.
Of course these are all my own views, and certainly not my beliefs. I am a questioner through and through. I cant speak for all juggalos, and how could I? this is just what I think.
troy luginbill

Dravosburg, PA

#246 Jan 14, 2009
jokers smile,
Interesting. I understand what you are saying. So here is a question within the Juggalo mythology I need clarification on:
Given a chaotic/random/anarchic world and your belief in a lack of any universal rightness, where does the the concept of the dark carnival, the wraith, the joker and shagri-la fit in? My understanding is that these are intended to represent basically god the spirit, the prophet, and heaven. Another thread asks "is god in ICPs music" and many Juggalos answer emphatically yes. Some go so far as to almost claim ICP to be a christian group using the clown themes to reach marginalized community members who have been betrayed by more formal religions.
I also understand what you are saying about buddhism and the assumed rightness inherent within that religion/philosophy. It is odd in that if you read early texts (translations) many critics also saw this flaw in buddhas own words. Practicers of some of the more obscure sects of mahayana buddhism believe more like you do though-that buddha did not believe that there was inherent good in the world, just that in accepting sorrow and learning to overcome it with good you negated both reaching a zero balance. Their final goal for buddhism really is simple-just to not care. "Establish peace within your self, not in the world" buddha would have agreed with wholeheartedly. The problem is that others redefined his peace as peace between men, not peace of soul. A single word with different definitions can suddenly justify so many actions with none of them being the actual intent. So I can see why you would not want a definition. It is painful to watch your own words twisted and used against what you believe in.
troy luginbill

Dravosburg, PA

#247 Jan 14, 2009
cont.
What you say about being by ourselves but not alone, connected without contact, isn't anarchy though. At least not in the way I have seen it defined in a traditional sense (read not the way current anarchists define anarchy). This idea of island man is more anti-nihilism than anarchy. It is an effort to find/define/believe in some pattern among the chaos. The reasons may be many, but the end result is still the same, and that result is: instead of being swept away by the tides of life you concentrate on finding joy in the many things that float up to you so you won't feel the loss of those that are swept away.
The explanation you offer seems more taoist in nature. Accept what you have, don't try to change what you can't (which the peasants of asia defined as pretty much everything around them.) and don't hope for what you will never get. Live only, because that is the only posession that is truly yours. Now this does seem to be a facet of Juggalos and ICPs songs. Oddly this is also the point on which I think that most of the non-juggalos could actually agree on. The flower child movement of the 60s began as this basic philosophy, but as you stated, ordered minds tried to find some "value" in it-madness ensued. That is the great thing about taoism-there is no value in it what so ever, even a taoist priest will tell you that. Just be-there was a song with those lyrics (not ICP) but I can't remember who made it.
You lost me on the last paragraph though. When you stated that you have no conflict with these structures, only the madness they inspire I wondered why after such a well explained to not worry about others that you would have a problem with the madness they inspire. True anarchists wouldn't care what madness ran around them because they knew that eventually it would fade away. To accept chaos is to understand it-that statement still reveals an effort to go against the chaos. Taoism would instead say, "accept chaos? hand me that bottle of wine, and turn up the music, life is too short to worry about this shit when we could be having fun."
Finally, I fully understand that you don't speak for the Juggalo community. I do think that many Juggalos are right now asking themselves the question (am I really a Juggalo?) and hopefully in reading your words beginning to answer that question for themselves. So oddly, by being anarchic in nature and expressing those views you are bringing some level of order (or at least a mildly pleasant madness), to some other Juggalos life.
Keep questioning, keep living. Cogito er sum my man. I await your reply.
Jokers Smile

United States

#248 Jan 18, 2009
Forgive the lateness of my reply. Been sick the last few days.

Moving on.

About the carnival and its place in my views. The carnival, shangra-la and all the jokers cards are merely metaphorical, as I've said before. I don't agree with them literally, but I do understand the ideas and the lessons they offer. Some might claim I'm not really a juggalo because I don't believe in the carnival. But like I said before, you don't have to believe something to be a juggalo, and you certainly don't need the approval of others to be a juggalo. I refer to your buddha quote for my views on that.

As for ICP being a christian group. I would say no. They might borrow heavily from the christian mythology, but they certainly aren't disguising it to fool us into becoming christian. Do they really seem like the church going type? They might believe in god, but that does not make them christian. Just ask any christian the same question and they'll tell you the same thing.

The ICP mythology differs greatly from the christian mythology on many issues. Firstly, the carnival, or God if you will, is a neutral force that dwells between earth and the heavens and serves to takes souls to their designated place in the afterlife. Unlike christianity, this god does not exist in heaven. Shangra-la is a separate place, as is Hell's Pit. It is unclear what will happen to the carnival once the end of time occurs but the separation of God and heaven is clear. Secondly, the crumbling of time is not a war, it is simply when the carnival comes to claim the world and bring an end to all things. There is no final conflict. Even the Witch differs in this way for he is not an enemy of the carnival, he is simply the lord of Hell's pit and a general corruptor of humanity. Thirdly, you don't have to believe in the carnival to be admitted to Shangra-la. You just have to be righteous enough to pass the judgment of the carnival's six joker's cards. There is no salvation through the carnival, you pass or fail by the choices you've made and the lessons you've learned. There is also no worshiping of the carnival. As you can see, the two ideologies differ on some important issues, though they share many similarities.
Jokers Smile cont

United States

#249 Jan 18, 2009
As for the idea of island man. I suppose you're right. It wouldn't be complete anarchy for there would be a pattern to it. Its sort of a disorganized order, a group of individuals, order within chaos. I suppose the difference between us and the other ordered groups out there is we aren't trying to impose this order on the world or even others, its simply one we share. There is no need to spread the word of the juggalo for it makes no difference if there's ten of us or ten million of us. I can really see the similarities with Taoism as well.

As for the last paragraph. I suppose I did misspeak there. I retract the statement. It is all truly madness any ways and so should not warrant conflict. I suppose those are issues I'm still overcoming within myself.

To accept chaos is to realize you can never understand it for it has nothing to be understood about it, for if it did it wouldn't truly be chaos. Its more of an understanding of the impossibility of understanding. This also goes back to Taoism.

I hope the juggalos reading this, if any, have begun to question what a juggalo is. I may be way off, but thats something they must figure out for themselves. The inspiration of questioning is the core of all teaching, which is why anything can be a teacher, if only it inspires one to question.
troy luginbill

Dravosburg, PA

#250 Jan 20, 2009
Jokers smile-Sorry to hear about your illness. I hope you are feeling a bit more tip top shape.

Please also excuse my late reply. My wifes grandmother died a couple of days ago, and her father is being a real prick about the estate. His mother isn't buried and he is worrying about the money. These are the times that I personally would love to embrace true anarchy and let nature decide his fate, but even then too much personal satisfaction would be gained. For me anarchy is the true punishment for any human (although this comment will seem to be contradictory I think you will get what I am about to say)-to die and have no one care, no history record you and do so knowing that no soul will pass into an eternal condition, is sort of the ultimate slap in our faces. On a side note-I wonder could we destroy entire cultures or worlds without a shred of hate simply because it needed to happen due to circumstance? Would that also be a key to paradise?

Anyway-your take on ICPs lyrics is pretty much what I got out of them. I cannot say I like the music and the poetry is pretty average, but I will say that they have created a compelling mythology and artistic direction (except for shagri-la as heaven, that is a tired old goat way overused in 19th and 20th century literature as an earthly representation of paradise-I frankly expect something a little more creative given the thought that has gone into the rest of their work).

It would be interesting to have joe and joey link up with a good story writer or screen play writer as there is enough depth to their mythology and art at this point to fuel a good story. What would Hamlet look like if ICP was the artistic director I wonder? There is a story of anarchy and family!

I too hope that many other juggalos read this and begin to think for themselves about Juggalo-ness. I fear that most don't. Listening to others on this forum, I get more and more of a feeling that their take on Juggalos is much more nihilistic. The whole process is a weird form of passive aggressive self destruction for them. An opportunity to justify not really trying to recognize any self determination in themselves. Which may be great, it may be what joe and joey hoped for or if they are prophets, the sole goal of whatever power they speak for. My experience has been that while chaos is a powerful force, nihilism is the shortest pattern that appears in any system.

If you had to compare a mythology to what joe and joey have dreamt up which would you find most similar?
Jokers Smile cont

Bastrop, TX

#251 Jan 25, 2009
Well, you can never expect people to do whats best for others when its more beneficial to themselves. It doesn't make them bad, just disappointing. I hope things work out for you and your wife.

As for the destruction of entire cultures. I suppose its not a choice we can make reasonably. Just like the choice to take a life. There usually is no reasonable cause for it. Only the insane and ignorant make such choices.

I'm not a fan of Shangra-la either, but its part of the story so theres not much to do about it. I'm actually working on a comic adaptation of the Carnival mythology myself. Who knows if it'll take off. I was going to send a copy of the first issue to Joe and Joey when its done to see if they would be interested in commissioning it. We'll see what happens.

The problem with nihilists is that they only discard half the answers. The way of chaos is in discarding all answers to maintain a constant state of questioning. This would bring many to a halt, as we've developed the habit of only acting when we believe ourselves to be certain. The chaotic are able to move without certainty, this is how they are able to constantly question without being hindered by it. It might seem impossible but I believe this to be a sort of nirvana state.

If I had to compare the carnival to other mythologies, I'd say the closest in structure is Hinduism, for its variety and undefined nature. Hinduism is one of the most diverse religions in the world, who's teachings range from polytheistic to atheistic and who's rituals vary by province and family. Christianity is obviously closest in mythology, while Buddhism shares many of its philosophies. Its hard to pin down, as it is still young compared to its overdeveloped brethren. Who knows if ICP will develop the dark carnival mythology as much as these religions have developed theirs? I suppose we'll just have to wait until the next album.
troy luginbill

Dravosburg, PA

#252 Jan 26, 2009
Neat to hear about the comic. I have always personally believed that the actual genesis of a philosophic system is never fully developed by the originator but further developed by the students, hence the reason that so many of them seem to deviate from the original intent of the philosopher.

Certainly agree with the nihilist opinion. They seek to destroy themselves to justify thier denial of them by god. Which is slightly ironic because in denying that benevolence they acknowledge benevolence exists.

I have just recently begun to look into hinduism. So far what I have discovered is that there is no "hinduism" as an overriding piece. It is a group non-hindu's use to describe a collection of religions stemming from a slightly common creation myth. In 2000 years I expect christianity to become what hinduism is now.

The really neat part of the hindu religions is the concept of will. It is very similar to the concept that underlies some of the quantum theories of probability. This sort of intrigues me. My view of chaos is a substrate in which the natural universe exists. It is by itself totally random, but will is something that is added to the system that changes it. Makes it unstable and removes randomness creating potential and probable along with possible. Add to that the aspect ideology of many hindu gods and you have a very unique expression of philosophy that parallels cutting edge physics today.

The idea of aspects would be a neat piece for ICP to add to their mythology. There is a live album by Tool in which they cover their own songs in different styles. They said they did it to look at what they had created from another angle/view. ICP could do that with various characters and concepts without changing the style of music. This would add tremendous deep shades to existing hues of character.

Personally I think the reason the carnival shares so much with Buddhism an christianity is that those are the 2 most public mythologies available in the US. Efforts like yours will continue to develop the concept behind the mythology, but either joe and joey will have to work hard at keeping the vision true to the original or followers such as yourself will have to keep a clear view of the original vision. If it changes it begins to randomize and fall back into chaos. At this point will dictates less and natural selection more. The format that ICP has presented the mythology in would not hold up to natural selection as it does not engage the average person and the current audience of Juggalos is fickle enough (In my opinion, mainly due to the youth of most of it) that as their lives change they would begin to quickly loose touch with a changing message.
JUGGALETTE

Lynnwood, WA

#254 Mar 4, 2009
i love icp whoop whoop to my family yo
bonez

Alexander City, AL

#255 Mar 9, 2009
are u realy choko from the interview on shockumentery if so email me sometime [email protected]
juggalo

Charleston, WV

#256 May 19, 2009
we WILL see u soon

Tell me when this thread is updated:

Subscribe Now Add to my Tracker

Add your comments below

Characters left: 4000

Please note by submitting this form you acknowledge that you have read the Terms of Service and the comment you are posting is in compliance with such terms. Be polite. Inappropriate posts may be removed by the moderator. Send us your feedback.

Rap Discussions

Title Updated Last By Comments
News Lady Gaga at Super Bowl LI (Feb '17) Dec 9 Life sux 4 antitr... 14
News Music News Eminem once gifted Elton John a pair... Dec 3 Music and Hope 6
News Police car rolls down north Minneapolis street ... Dec 1 The Lumber Jack 2
News Vanilla Ice's - Ice Ice Baby' Honored by the Sm... Nov 28 Jim 1
News Jay-Z leads Grammy noms with 8 as rap, R&B take... Nov 28 Trumpet farts 2
News Snoop Dogg Returns To Hometown Of Long Beach To... (Nov '15) Nov 23 Christie Taylor 2
BMP Productions And me, AB trip. CHeck out gmillz Nov 22 AB Trip 1
More from around the web