Charles C. Haynes: Conscience claims ...

Charles C. Haynes: Conscience claims fuel big battles

There are 14 comments on the Times Herald story from Feb 9, 2013, titled Charles C. Haynes: Conscience claims fuel big battles. In it, Times Herald reports that:

Here's a conundrum as old as the republic: When religious convictions clash with secular laws, how far should government go to accommodate religious claims of conscience? From colonial conflicts over the refusal of Quakers to take up arms to the more recent refusal of Jehovah's Witnesses to salute the flag, American history is replete with robust ... (more)

Join the discussion below, or Read more at Times Herald.

Remnant 134999

Albuquerque, NM

#1 Feb 14, 2013
The wtbts denies disfellowshipping or public reproof of anyone that obeys US law,according to the wtbts it is a personel matter.Jw's are just volunteers not agents of the wtbts.
Remnant 134999

Albuquerque, NM

#2 Feb 18, 2013
Many Christian conscientious objecters fullfilled their U.S. military obligation by serving as unarmed medics,under fire, bravely ran into the battlefield to rescue wounded soldiers. These are Christians with GUTS!! Some religious cults brainwash their volunteer members to buck U.S. laws,while at the same time using every U.S.handout/loophole to their advantage!
Remnant 134999

Albuquerque, NM

#3 Mar 4, 2013
Cn anybody show me where in writing that the wtbts will disfellowship ,or put on public reproof ,or say self disfellowship if a baptized jw votes or joins the US Armed Forces?
Remnant 134999

Albuquerque, NM

#4 Mar 5, 2013
Has any body you know been disfellowshiped or public reproved for voting or joining the US Armed Forces?
jace

Woodbridge, VA

#5 Mar 6, 2013
Remnant 134999 wrote:
Cn anybody show me where in writing that the wtbts will disfellowship ,or put on public reproof ,or say self disfellowship if a baptized jw votes or joins the US Armed Forces?
The legal dept will not allow the service committee or writing dept to put those exact words in print according to our elders school

It is not classified as a dfing offense but a daing offense

Our instructor explained that since the flock book is used in all countries it can be interpreted as "subversion" of the gov

A dfing offense requires direct action on the part of an elder body
Letter sent to the person or phone call to meet. A formal tribunal is held person is questioned etc

Daing is passive all the service dept has to do us produce a list of actions that constitute daing

That is why blood was moved over from daing to daing

So the flock book talks about "action" one can take that would invoke this classification

As we all know the treatment of daed and dfed persons are the same

But from a legal standpoint they are different

Dfing can gat messy if you got Jack Elders handling the case

Keep in mind. Jw are worldwide 3rd world country with elders who have little to no education. Good society men but a billion$$$$ company don't want these clowns making issues for them

So service just gives elders a list of "actions". If someone does one of these actions just announce they are daing. And the rank and file knows what to do

Daing I was told is a concept created by legal to help avoid issues in many countries
little lamb

Rye, Australia

#6 Mar 6, 2013
Here's a conundrum as old as the republic: When religious convictions clash with secular laws, how far should government go to accommodate religious claims of conscience?

Actually this is an interesting situation, that has happened before in history..

As scripture states " nothing new under heaven , its all been done before."

When the three Jews, refused to bow to Nebuchadnezzar's image of a man he had made .

We had the situation of a king making a Law, that the conscience of worshipers of Jehovah could not obey..

Jehovah allowed them to feel the full force of the Law.. which is really interesting to me..that Jehovah allowed it to go so far.

The Kings anger was so much that the soldiers he commanded to heat up the fire , to such an excess it killed the soldiers carrying out his orders.

But the three men went through the ordeal but not alone , an angel was amongst them, so their clothes were not even scorched.

What a Christian learns is that we have a personal responsibility to keep a clean conscience toward God...

and we just have to trust God at his word..

That he will not allow us to be tested beyond what we can bear..and he is with us to deliver us from all evil.
True Christian witness

Slick, OK

#7 Mar 6, 2013
Jesus Christ said his followers, in his pure worship to the one true god of the Jews, Almighty God Jehovah, would be no part of this world, as he was no part of this world. John 15:18,19

Since it is the politicians and politics of this world that dictate what should be observed or followed as a requirement for it's citizens, as well as all religions of this world, that means that a true Christian would have to use his conscience to imitate Jesus, in what he would do in a given situation. 1Peter 2:21

Because Jesus declared himself to be the King designate of God's heavenly Kingdom, and his true Christian followers would be ambassadors of that Kingdom of peace, they would definitely have no share in the politics and wars of this world. Idolatry to the flag or men would not have been conduct of a true Christian.
They would be neutral and peacemakers and love their enemies as Jesus taught. They would be willing to die for their faith in God's Kingdom, as Jesus did.
1Peter 2:20
jace

Woodbridge, VA

#8 Mar 6, 2013
little lamb wrote:
Here's a conundrum as old as the republic: When religious convictions clash with secular laws, how far should government go to accommodate religious claims of conscience?

Actually this is an interesting situation, that has happened before in history..

As scripture states " nothing new under heaven , its all been done before."

When the three Jews, refused to bow to Nebuchadnezzar's image of a man he had made .

We had the situation of a king making a Law, that the conscience of worshipers of Jehovah could not obey..

Jehovah allowed them to feel the full force of the Law.. which is really interesting to me..that Jehovah allowed it to go so far.

The Kings anger was so much that the soldiers he commanded to heat up the fire , to such an excess it killed the soldiers carrying out his orders.

But the three men went through the ordeal but not alone , an angel was amongst them, so their clothes were not even scorched.

What a Christian learns is that we have a personal responsibility to keep a clean conscience toward God...

and we just have to trust God at his word..

That he will not allow us to be tested beyond what we can bear..and he is with us to deliver us from all evil.
The problem is when the wt editorial staff dictates what is a conscience matter

Taking Alternative service was never a sin

Yet wt sent 1000s of young men to jail believing they were doing it for god only to be told it was their fault they went to jail

This is one if the p
little lamb

Rye, Australia

#9 Mar 6, 2013
When someone faces a trial of intense pressure, that can inflict damage on one..There is no man that can reach that area of a human being to be strong for what is right..but the spirit of God.

When David went to face Goliath..it wasn't the Leadership of Israel that inspired him..it was God himself..if one doesn't have that sort of relationship with God himself..he lacks strength..because " strength is from God."

The rest of Israel; strong military trained men..they just kept themselves hid..whilst they allowed a 'boy' to face their fear for them..

And that is why it doesn't matter what religious organization Leaders do or don't do..it can't replace the spirit of God, that he promises to put in us through faith in Christ Jesus..

" for even the smallest one among them will be like David."
True Christian witness

Slick, OK

#10 Mar 6, 2013
little lamb wrote:
When someone faces a trial of intense pressure, that can inflict damage on one..There is no man that can reach that area of a human being to be strong for what is right..but the spirit of God.
When David went to face Goliath..it wasn't the Leadership of Israel that inspired him..it was God himself..if one doesn't have that sort of relationship with God himself..he lacks strength..because " strength is from God."
The rest of Israel; strong military trained men..they just kept themselves hid..whilst they allowed a 'boy' to face their fear for them..
And that is why it doesn't matter what religious organization Leaders do or don't do..it can't replace the spirit of God, that he promises to put in us through faith in Christ Jesus..
" for even the smallest one among them will be like David."
Please show the Scriptures that God promises to put his spirit in people who have faith in Jesus. Many people have faith in Jesus and they are in Babylon the Great.

little lamb

Rye, Australia

#11 Mar 6, 2013
jace wrote:
<quoted text>
The problem is when the wt editorial staff dictates what is a conscience matter
Taking Alternative service was never a sin
Yet wt sent 1000s of young men to jail believing they were doing it for god only to be told it was their fault they went to jail
This is one if the p
Jace when does a man start taking personal responsibility for his own actions.??

And why can't he?

this smacks of Adam blaming Eve for his problems, instead of being able to take his personal responsibility for his own actions.

And do you yourself believe that a man should stop blaming others and step up to the plate?

These guys would not have this sort of power if we had strong men for God.

When Hitler went down , the allies made people from the towns around come and look at the concentration camps..and made them face the results of their own personal responsibility for allowing it to go on.. by hiding their faces in the sand.
little lamb

Rye, Australia

#12 Mar 6, 2013
True Christian witness wrote:
<quoted text>
Please show the Scriptures that God promises to put his spirit in people who have faith in Jesus. Many people have faith in Jesus and they are in Babylon the Great.
Acts 2 [36 -39]

And of course God has people in Babylon the great ..His command is
" Come out of her MY PEOPLE.."

He is calling HIS PEOPLE to COME OUT..

I don't recognize 'denominations' you are either a Christian or you are not...you either obey Jesus or you don't ..and every one is at different stages of growth in the Lord..

our responsibility is to encourage FAITH...and to gather with Christ not a denominational organization..
Failing The Test

Middletown, NY

#13 Mar 6, 2013
Real world advice:

The changing Moon enters your seventh house of marriage and partnerships, turning your attention to your partner. It may be time to check in with your best friend, mate or business associate. He or she may have been holding emotions in lately, creating a potential relationship hazard. Make time to sit around and talk about everything under the Sun, for good measure.

True Christian witness

Slick, OK

#14 Mar 6, 2013
little lamb wrote:
<quoted text>
Acts 2 [36 -39]
And of course God has people in Babylon the great ..His command is
" Come out of her MY PEOPLE.."
He is calling HIS PEOPLE to COME OUT..
I don't recognize 'denominations' you are either a Christian or you are not...you either obey Jesus or you don't ..and every one is at different stages of growth in the Lord..
our responsibility is to encourage FAITH...and to gather with Christ not a denominational organization..
You had to be a Jew to recieve God's holy spirit when Jesus said those words, addressed to the natural Jews who were suppose to be dedicated to Almighty God Jehovah, and they were not.

Since you don't recognize demoninations, you do not qualify as a true Christian, Jesus gave specific instructions to be obeyed if you were to imitate him. Just saying you are a Christian and going to Church does not make you a true Christian, you must be a follower of Jesus and worship the God of the Bible Jehovah, as Jesus did, if you want to call yourself a true Christian. John 3:36

You will have the same reward as anyone who believes they are already saved, and it won't be in God's new world of righteousness.

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