Mormon President Doesn't Speak the Truth in Newsweek Interview

The October 17, 2005 issue of Newsweek features a cover story titled, "The Making of the Mormons". This year is the 200th birthday of Joseph Smith, Jr., the founder of Mormonism, which Newsweek describes as a "Christian denomination". As part of their reporting on the Mormon church, Newsweek includes an interview with the current President of the ...

[Beautiful]

A very interesting article!

[humor me here]

The same silly, imbecilic, no logic statements we've heard before. Come up with something that doesn't have a thousand logical holes in it.

Why is the fact that we want to worship how we please somehow distasteful to you?

Folks, get a grip...

[NoMo]

humor me here wrote:

The same silly, imbecilic, no logic statements we've heard before. Come up with something that doesn't have a thousand logical holes in it.
Why is the fact that we want to worship how we please somehow distasteful to you?
Folks, get a grip...

HMH, I don't care what you believe or worship. I don't care what you do in your temples. It's your choice and power to you. The problem is the hateful legislation that your leaders endorse and urge its followers to fund and actively promote. It's wrong. It's ignorant. It causes undue pain and heartache. You know it does and it still continues. The problem is that your leaders are a corporation that seems more concerned with control than charity. Control means power and profit. Where is Jesus in all of this?

[humor me here]

NoMo wrote:

<quoted text>
HMH, I don't care what you believe or worship. I don't care what you do in your temples. It's your choice and power to you. The problem is the hateful legislation that your leaders endorse and urge its followers to fund and actively promote. It's wrong. It's ignorant. It causes undue pain and heartache. You know it does and it still continues. The problem is that your leaders are a corporation that seems more concerned with control than charity. Control means power and profit. Where is Jesus in all of this?

You can have differences in theology all you'd like. You simply have told a lie in your statement. I like you. I really do. I will continue to no matter our differences. But what you are saying is untrue. It simply is. You are spouting hate filled words themselves against the very group you accuse of hating.

"Hateful legislation." No, that is nothing to do with hateful. You disagree with it. Feel free. That's what the political process is. Less than half the voters in California agree with you. This time.

Jesus did not say to roll over and let things happen that you find to be an assault on your family and your beliefs.

I'll tell you that from your side there is nothing I can do to convince you, but it isn't control and hate.

It is simply the operation of a political process that has had enough of the steady and devastating attack on much of America's closely held beliefs...and it's long past time to make a stand, a line in the sand. And California was only the start.

I'm tired. I am probably more reactive than I normally would be. Sorry in advance if I offend.

But, since Mormons are already trained to put up with unfair CRAP from people that SHOULD AGREE with them, it has hardened our exteriors. These silly jello-eating folks are TOUGH. So bring it on. This Prop 8 junk is NOTHING.

And the stupid, silly authors of this rebuttal article in Newsweek are just making themselves look foolish. And it simply drives more people to us! My son has had 5 baptisms in SLC! for crying out loud! IN THREE WEEKS!

Yeah, I'd better go on to bed. Seminary is at 5:00 in the morning.

G'night. Talk to you soon.

[Beautiful]

NoMo wrote:

<quoted text>
HMH, I don't care what you believe or worship. I don't care what you do in your temples. It's your choice and power to you. The problem is the hateful legislation that your leaders endorse and urge its followers to fund and actively promote. It's wrong. It's ignorant. It causes undue pain and heartache. You know it does and it still continues. The problem is that your leaders are a corporation that seems more concerned with control than charity. Control means power and profit. Where is Jesus in all of this?

And, truth be told, I could care less about the wacky ways that they worship either if they simply kept to themselves and their own community. It's the fact that they've invaded MY LIFE by funding and promoting legislation that makes ME a second class citizen. It's the fact that they use mind control and coercion to force their membership to pay their way or not "get their blessings." That said, if the public at large really knew who the Mo's were and what they stand for, if they saw more of what's really behind the conservative, good-living family-centered facade that is set before them, they would understand what this really is - a diabolically ingenious business corporation that is in many ways no different from Halliburton, but that actively seeks to socially engineer life according to its precepts on ALL of America. It's about profits, not prophets, business not blessings, control not compassion, and charades not charity. The religious foundation is built on the lies of one 19th century man who had a passion for telling good stories, but that is held up as truth for the masses. Mysteries and major aspects of the faith are kept hidden and only systematically revealed in order to keep the naive believers interested and wanting to know more. Those who don't measure up or who ask too many questions are shown the door.

[NoMo]

humor me here wrote:

<quoted text>
You can have differences in theology all you'd like. You simply have told a lie in your statement. I like you. I really do. I will continue to no matter our differences. But what you are saying is untrue. It simply is. You are spouting hate filled words themselves against the very group you accuse of hating.
"Hateful legislation." No, that is nothing to do with hateful. You disagree with it. Feel free. That's what the political process is. Less than half the voters in California agree with you. This time.
Jesus did not say to roll over and let things happen that you find to be an assault on your family and your beliefs.
I'll tell you that from your side there is nothing I can do to convince you, but it isn't control and hate.
It is simply the operation of a political process that has had enough of the steady and devastating attack on much of America's closely held beliefs...and it's long past time to make a stand, a line in the sand. And California was only the start.
I'm tired. I am probably more reactive than I normally would be. Sorry in advance if I offend.
But, since Mormons are already trained to put up with unfair CRAP from people that SHOULD AGREE with them, it has hardened our exteriors. These silly jello-eating folks are TOUGH. So bring it on. This Prop 8 junk is NOTHING.
And the stupid, silly authors of this rebuttal article in Newsweek are just making themselves look foolish. And it simply drives more people to us! My son has had 5 baptisms in SLC! for crying out loud! IN THREE WEEKS!
Yeah, I'd better go on to bed. Seminary is at 5:00 in the morning.
G'night. Talk to you soon.

But that's the thing, theology is relative. You have yours, I have mine, the rest of the world has theirs. I may think yours is wrong, you may think mine is wrong. As far as religion goes, to me what is important is what you do with it. Hurting people and pushing them down to a lower status than you or I is wrong. Rejecting people for bigoted reasons is wrong. You've heard many of the stories. They are real(you know it) and these stories are happening still, daily. If some of us aren't equal, none of us are, really. Whether you agree with it or not.
It's funny, after the Saints game, we(family) couldn't really find anything on tv, so at this moment I am once again watching Harvey Milk. Have you ever seen it? You should watch it if you haven't.
I know to you it seems to be a political process, but to the millions in this country dealing with the discrimination, that is insulting.
The article is old. I know Mo's are tough, strong. I like you too. No offense taken. You said yourself once that you believed that the GLBT community should not face the discrimination that they do. That you thought they should have civil unions and have every right that you and I have. Your leaders don't feel that way. They may say they do but they fight it, every step of the way.

[NoMo]

Beautiful wrote:

<quoted text>
And, truth be told, I could care less about the wacky ways that they worship either if they simply kept to themselves and their own community. It's the fact that they've invaded MY LIFE by funding and promoting legislation that makes ME a second class citizen. It's the fact that they use mind control and coercion to force their membership to pay their way or not "get their blessings." That said, if the public at large really knew who the Mo's were and what they stand for, if they saw more of what's really behind the conservative, good-living family-centered facade that is set before them, they would understand what this really is - a diabolically ingenious business corporation that is in many ways no different from Halliburton, but that actively seeks to socially engineer life according to its precepts on ALL of America. It's about profits, not prophets, business not blessings, control not compassion, and charades not charity. The religious foundation is built on the lies of one 19th century man who had a passion for telling good stories, but that is held up as truth for the masses. Mysteries and major aspects of the faith are kept hidden and only systematically revealed in order to keep the naive believers interested and wanting to know more. Those who don't measure up or who ask too many questions are shown the door.

"It's about profits, not prophets, business not blessings, control not compassion, and charades not charity."
...that's it in a nutshell, Beautiful. What is really confusing to me is why so many in the congregation refuse to see it. Not even a glimpse. How can the desire to belong outweigh the truth?
Religions that promote hatred are evil. ALL of them.

[No Surprise]

How ignorantly, stupididly, blatantly, decietfully with full purpose to lie and twist and misrepresent an interview seeking the opinion of a religious leader will a person go to so to discredit a person? Hinkley was responding to questions as he believed in the answers. He was not taking a test on Mormon history. He was not being tested to see if he knew how other people felt about Mormons. It was an interview with a religious leader and how they felt about there religion. Man oh man, some people really do not have a life happening.

[No Surprise]

Beautiful wrote:

<quoted text>
And, truth be told, I could care less about the wacky ways that they worship either if they simply kept to themselves and their own community. It's the fact that they've invaded MY LIFE by funding and promoting legislation that makes ME a second class citizen. It's the fact that they use mind control and coercion to force their membership to pay their way or not "get their blessings." That said, if the public at large really knew who the Mo's were and what they stand for, if they saw more of what's really behind the conservative, good-living family-centered facade that is set before them, they would understand what this really is - a diabolically ingenious business corporation that is in many ways no different from Halliburton, but that actively seeks to socially engineer life according to its precepts on ALL of America. It's about profits, not prophets, business not blessings, control not compassion, and charades not charity. The religious foundation is built on the lies of one 19th century man who had a passion for telling good stories, but that is held up as truth for the masses. Mysteries and major aspects of the faith are kept hidden and only systematically revealed in order to keep the naive believers interested and wanting to know more. Those who don't measure up or who ask too many questions are shown the door.

Your more mentally deranged then the Mormons you accuse of being the same, did you know that?

[Beautiful]

No Surprise wrote:

<quoted text>
Your more mentally deranged then the Mormons you accuse of being the same, did you know that?

No, I did not know that. Please elaborate. I'm eager to hear your intelligent, articulate, coherent explanation of how mentally deranged I am - more so than the blind mormons who refuse to see how much of a corporation their "religion" really is. While we're at it, please provide physical evidence for any stories in the BM.

[Beautiful]

NoMo wrote:

<quoted text>
"It's about profits, not prophets, business not blessings, control not compassion, and charades not charity."
...that's it in a nutshell, Beautiful. What is really confusing to me is why so many in the congregation refuse to see it. Not even a glimpse. How can the desire to belong outweigh the truth?
Religions that promote hatred are evil. ALL of them.

The desire to belong outweighs the truth because of the close-knit, exclusionary stranglehold they maintain on one's family and entire social foundation. How many Mos do you know who have close associations with non-Mo's? It's not like other mainline religions at all. Let alone their tolerance or recognition of any type of diversity.

[NoMo]

Here, if you are talking about temple worthy Mos and nons, none, actually. There may be co-worker or neighbor relationships, etc. but there is a gigantic wall and a good bit of condescension. I do have a number of friends who aren't temple worthy, they've actually given me quite the education on all things Mo(and visa versa).
I don't think it's like that outside Utah though. In the "real" world, one has to deal with diversity and exercise tolerance but they still rush to defend every ridiculous action and statement that comes out of Utah.

[humor me here]

NoMo wrote:

<quoted text>
Hurting people and pushing them down to a lower status than you or I is wrong. Rejecting people for bigoted reasons is wrong. You've heard many of the stories. They are real(you know it) and these stories are happening still, daily. If some of us aren't equal, none of us are, really....
The article is old. I know Mo's are tough, strong. I like you too. No offense taken. You said yourself once that you believed that the GLBT community should not face the discrimination that they do. That you thought they should have civil unions and have every right that you and I have. Your leaders don't feel that way. They may say they do but they fight it, every step of the way.

Let me wax poetic for a minute:

Many GLBT folks are wonderful. I have said this before and I will continue to say it. I believe that on the average, GLBT people are better citizens than the average straight person.(I also believe that on the average, the LDS member is too.)

But, what is being done here is insidious and crafty. People on both sides are being stupid. You characterize "LDS leaders" as being one way, and it's somewhat true, if you go back and look at some older living leaders, there have been instances where people have said things, tried things, and done things that have fallen out of favor, and to today's standards, look draconian and reactionary.

The GLBT side has people that are the same on the other side. Many people.

I hope this is a good analogy: I hate rap music. The garbage I hear coming from the car next to me that I have to roll up my windows so my kids don't hear the cursing, terrible stories of abuse, destruction and hate--and it still doesn't block it because it comes into my car. I have to turn on country or something loud to counteract it.

I hated sagging. I think the people caught up in this are sheep. They want to be rebellious, but they all do the same things. "Let's rebel together--so it's safe!" Stupid.

Now just because I dislike those two things, am I racist? No. Not at all. I just don't like those stupid, silly cultural activities.

Now, take it over to the GLBT crowd. I hate and will not tolerate widening the definitions of what I consider sacred. "No-fault" divorces and Roe v. Wade have done more to destroy marriage than the GLBT group ever could do. Why do I hate the idea of same sex marriage after it seems the "horse has left the barn"?

Because I and others, hopefully, can finally realize that we are in charge of our society. We CAN make a difference. Now, here's an important piece I don't want you to forget:

The implentation of anything like this is imperfect. Out of 100 people, there are some I COMPLETELY disagree with, some I COMPLETELY agree with, and most well, I guess I can get along with, but marginally.

Members of MY church are just like you. You do not want to see the flaming fringe of the GLBT community take over. We do not want to see the extreme lock-down side of OUR group take over. But there are principles here. They must be addressed.

So with people like you, who do not advocate complete and total "sex in the streets", and people like me, who understand the "rights of the few do matter", we can come to an agreement. I am not "in power" and neither are you. But we can be voices of reason. But be cautious not to allow your rhetoric to inflame. To use a voice of inclusiveness, not divisiveness. EVEN THOUGH some of our side havent't figured that out yet.

Let's just be grown up, here, OK? It starts with each of us.

[No Surprise]

Beautiful wrote....
(I'll start with this post).
1. And, truth be told, I could care less about the wacky ways that they worship either if they simply kept to themselves and their own community. It's the fact that they've invaded MY LIFE by funding and promoting legislation that makes ME a second class citizen.
1a. Your apparently not aware that the Mormons were a small minority and remain a small minority that vote no against homosexuals being equated with a marriage certificate the heteros have rights to. The large majority that worked against you as you term it were non-Mormons. So put your blame into perspective. By the way, not having a right to a marriage certificate does not make you a second class citizen. That is pure LGBTS BS. Heteros were and are to this day denied polygamous marriages. Does that make them second class citizens?
2. It's the fact that they use mind control and coercion to force their membership to pay their way or not "get their blessings."
2a. Tithing is a commandment in the OT. If your doing what God wants you to be doing, you should also be paying 1/10 of your income to his church as he instructed the Israelites to do. So it isn't mind control or coercion. It is a choice as it is a choice to murder or not murder or rape or not rape or to disrespect your parents or not to disrespect them. Your doing an isolation tactic that reveals your willful ignorance of the issue.
3. That said, if the public at large really knew who the Mo's were and what they stand for, if they saw more of what's really behind the conservative, good-living family-centered facade that is set before them, they would understand what this really is - a diabolically ingenious business corporation that is in many ways no different from Halliburton, but that actively seeks to socially engineer life according to its precepts on ALL of America. It's about profits, not prophets, business not blessings, control not compassion, and charades not charity. The religious foundation is built on the lies of one 19th century man who had a passion for telling good stories, but that is held up as truth for the masses.
3a. The above is your opinion. You do have a right to it even if it is bent and misdirected. That church is a well oiled machine I'll even agree. What I do see is that there is really no one single person at the helm. It works from a circle of ingenuity that hooks one office to the other so each part is aware of what the other part is doing. No matter who becomes a prophet, that church keeps running in a perfect balance for it's members and even the profit of non-members. That seems to piss off people like yourself.
4. Mysteries and major aspects of the faith are kept hidden and only systematically revealed in order to keep the naive believers interested and wanting to know more. Those who don't measure up or who ask too many questions are shown the door.
4a. You make waves against others and of course you will be shown a door if you don't stop. But to ask questions and to seek answers, any Mormon member is free to do that as they please as long as it is done with respect. Christ kept mysteries and major aspects of his faith he taught from his very apostles because of their lack of understanding. There is a time to drink milk and a time to eat meat and the Mormon church goes by that principle. Nothing wrong about it.

[NoMo]

humor me here wrote:

<quoted text>
Let me wax poetic for a minute:
Many GLBT folks are wonderful. I have said this before and I will continue to say it. I believe that on the average, GLBT people are better citizens than the average straight person.(I also believe that on the average, the LDS member is too.)
But, what is being done here is insidious and crafty. People on both sides are being stupid. You characterize "LDS leaders" as being one way, and it's somewhat true, if you go back and look at some older living leaders, there have been instances where people have said things, tried things, and done things that have fallen out of favor, and to today's standards, look draconian and reactionary.
The GLBT side has people that are the same on the other side. Many people.
I hope this is a good analogy: I hate rap music. The garbage I hear coming from the car next to me that I have to roll up my windows so my kids don't hear the cursing, terrible stories of abuse, destruction and hate--and it still doesn't block it because it comes into my car. I have to turn on country or something loud to counteract it.
I hated sagging. I think the people caught up in this are sheep. They want to be rebellious, but they all do the same things. "Let's rebel together--so it's safe!" Stupid.
Now just because I dislike those two things, am I racist? No. Not at all. I just don't like those stupid, silly cultural activities.
Now, take it over to the GLBT crowd. I hate and will not tolerate widening the definitions of what I consider sacred. "No-fault" divorces and Roe v. Wade have done more to destroy marriage than the GLBT group ever could do. Why do I hate the idea of same sex marriage after it seems the "horse has left the barn"?
Because I and others, hopefully, can finally realize that we are in charge of our society. We CAN make a difference. Now, here's an important piece I don't want you to forget:
The implentation of anything like this is imperfect. Out of 100 people, there are some I COMPLETELY disagree with, some I COMPLETELY agree with, and most well, I guess I can get along with, but marginally.
Members of MY church are just like you. You do not want to see the flaming fringe of the GLBT community take over. We do not want to see the extreme lock-down side of OUR group take over. But there are principles here. They must be addressed.
So with people like you, who do not advocate complete and total "sex in the streets", and people like me, who understand the "rights of the few do matter", we can come to an agreement. I am not "in power" and neither are you. But we can be voices of reason. But be cautious not to allow your rhetoric to inflame. To use a voice of inclusiveness, not divisiveness. EVEN THOUGH some of our side havent't figured that out yet.
Let's just be grown up, here, OK? It starts with each of us.

Good post, HMH..so what I am wondering is, what is the middle ground? For you? For other congregation members you have discussed this with? And if this middle ground is at odds in any way with what your church is actively pursuing, what can be done about it?

I know I have said quite a few things that have been inflammatory, finding Topix has given me an outlet to vent my frustrations about living here in Utah. When the whole prop 8 thing came about and they started doing in Ca. what they do here on a routine basis, it just became the straw on the camels back, for me.

There is a GLBT group here who have started the "Common Ground Initiative"..

http://www.equalityutah.org/action/common.htm...

Are their groups within your church like this? Do they have any impact on your leaders? Because what I am seeing is that while the LDS leaders say they aren't "anti-gay", they are not walking the walk..

http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_13215639

[NoMo]

-sorry about the double post, it wasn't showing up for some reason.

[humor me here]

NoMo wrote:

<quoted text>
Good post, HMH..so what I am wondering is, what is the middle ground? For you? For other congregation members you have discussed this with? And if this middle ground is at odds in any way with what your church is actively pursuing, what can be done about it?
I know I have said quite a few things that have been inflammatory, finding Topix has given me an outlet to vent my frustrations about living here in Utah. When the whole prop 8 thing came about and they started doing in Ca. what they do here on a routine basis, it just became the straw on the camels back, for me.
There is a GLBT group here who have started the "Common Ground Initiative"..
http://www.equalityutah.org/action/common.htm...
Are their groups within your church like this? Do they have any impact on your leaders? Because what I am seeing is that while the LDS leaders say they aren't "anti-gay", they are not walking the walk..
http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_13215639

You know, on the surface, I agree with the common ground intiative. I believe that everyone has certain civil rights. I don't think I have the right to legally limit LGBT rights to marry, for example, while also limiting civil unions. I think all people should be able to choose their next of kin legally for hospitalization and insurance and inheritance (EXCEPT minor children) I think everyone (with a few exceptions--)should be able to live where they want. I do have a couple exceptions. I say that up front.

But for the most part, I agree with it.

[NoMo]

humor me here wrote:

<quoted text>
You know, on the surface, I agree with the common ground intiative. I believe that everyone has certain civil rights. I don't think I have the right to legally limit LGBT rights to marry, for example, while also limiting civil unions. I think all people should be able to choose their next of kin legally for hospitalization and insurance and inheritance (EXCEPT minor children) I think everyone (with a few exceptions--)should be able to live where they want. I do have a couple exceptions. I say that up front.
But for the most part, I agree with it.

But if you agree with them(even partially) you are in disagreement with your church...

[Cup of Joe]

Excellent article.

[humor me here]

NoMo wrote:

<quoted text>
But if you agree with them(even partially) you are in disagreement with your church...

No, no, no.

My Church gets its authority from God, but I raise my hand to the square to give it its power. Common consent is necessary from the people to allow the Church power to operate.

I said in my post that the Church does not have a monolithic "PR" situation, no matter how it seems. I have the right to speak for me. I am enabled to articulate Church Doctrine...but not for the Church, but for the people I have responsibility for. So the nine people I am responsible for speak with one voice. But maybe not my wife and older kids.

I guess in times of change, we just need to keep our eyes on the PRINCIPLES and adjust the POLICIES according to the needs of the people. I am the first one to admit I am a different person than I was when I was baptized. I used to get in terrible arguments and I probably drove ten people AWAY from the Church because I was just an obnoxious ass. To which I will be eternally sorry.

So what am I saying?

Some members of the Church are homophobes. Some are racists. Some Baptists are racists and homophobes. Heck, some gays are racist and some people of color are homophobes!

As we progress, we will accept our gay brothers and sisters more readily. But you have to understand:

Gay folks are NOT to tell us or anyone else what is sinful and what is not. That is not on the table. What WE DO need to do is accept and embrace ALL people, regardless of the sin, because if we don't, then our sin is as scarlet as anyone else's.