Rethinking the Bible on homosexuality

Feb 10, 2011 Read more: religion.blogs.cnn.com 22,382

We often hears that Christians have no choice but to regard homosexuality as a sin - that Scripture simply demands it.

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“Trolls are Clueless”

Since: Dec 07

Aptos, California

#22286 Jun 29, 2012
WasteWater wrote:
<quoted text>
I have and it's always telling me stupid things about God. lol
That's good

“Unconvinced”

Since: Nov 09

Seattle, WA

#22287 Jun 29, 2012
the truth wrote:
it is possible to see wrong being done and not feel "hostil"toward the person. Jesus Loved all sinners,so much He gave his life .Christians can love someone and still try and get the truth across to them.please don't assume we all have hate in our hearts.
I don't. I understand that most of you are very kind and loving people. I just think that many of you are misguided on one very important point.

Let me try to explain my issue. You sound like you're open to listening.

You say that it's possible to see "wrong being done" while not feeling hostile toward the person. That's good, that's a very admirable position to hold.

But my issue is that WRONG IS NOT BEING DONE HERE.

It is NOT "wrong" for consenting adults to follow their hearts. It's wrong for them to harm others, but it isn't wrong for gay people to seek happiness and companionship, and even sexual satisfaction, with other gay people.

Even our own civil laws agree with this. Adults should have the freedom to build the best lives for themselves that they can. Some people feel ONLY attraction toward others of their same gender. Why shouldn't they be able to pursue that? What "wrong" is being done? Who is being harmed?

What is the purpose of a god forbidding homosexuality, when the world is so full of people who ONLY feel homosexual feelings? Why would a god want them to go through life alone, without ever knowing the joy of experiencing the world with a partner, let alone the joy of human contact? Why would a god want so many other people to hate them and attack them and limit them just because of how they feel and express love?

None of this makes any sense. It would make much MORE sense for a god to say "Allow people who feel same-sex desire to pursue that." There is no REASON for this to be called "wrong".

“Stop the liberal madness”

Since: Sep 10

Location hidden

#22288 Jun 29, 2012
LuLu Ford wrote:
<quoted text>
I agree. To each his own beliefs. I despise those who try to cram their beliefs down my throat.
Yet you rejoice as gays try to shove their agenda down the nations throat and add Obama's communist agenda.

“Unconvinced”

Since: Nov 09

Seattle, WA

#22289 Jun 29, 2012
Nathan wrote:
It must be frustrating for you to try to 'engage,'
It's not frustrating at all. It's fun. Or I wouldn't come here! Posting and debating is enjoyable, even if you can't make headway against superstitious absolutists.
Nathan wrote:
when you have positively nothing to counter EVERY Bible translation, ancient Bible text, context, history, and tradition which fully support the Bible's many commands against all homosexual behavior.
"Positively nothing"? The universe didn't emerge up out of water. People aren't made of dust or ribs. Plants and animals don't talk. Dead people don't come back to life. Rabbits don't chew cud. Bats aren't birds. Dragons and unicorns and cockatrices don't exist. Magic and fairy tales don't happen.

Does your kooky book have anything REALISTIC that CAN'T be countered? My little reading adventure has been crazier than a trip to Willy Wonka's chocolate factory.
Nathan wrote:
It's you against God.
I'm just talking with humans. I haven't seen any gods posting anything. I don't think any gods have gotten involved in this debate. All the opinions presented so far have come from humans, including the opinions in the bible.
Nathan

Lacon, IL

#22290 Jun 29, 2012
EdmondWA wrote:
<quoted text>
It's not frustrating at all. It's fun. Or I wouldn't come here! Posting and debating is enjoyable, even if you can't make headway against superstitious absolutists.
<quoted text>
"Positively nothing"? The universe didn't emerge up out of water. People aren't made of dust or ribs. Plants and animals don't talk. Dead people don't come back to life. Rabbits don't chew cud. Bats aren't birds. Dragons and unicorns and cockatrices don't exist. Magic and fairy tales don't happen.
Does your kooky book have anything REALISTIC that CAN'T be countered? My little reading adventure has been crazier than a trip to Willy Wonka's chocolate factory.
<quoted text>
I'm just talking with humans. I haven't seen any gods posting anything. I don't think any gods have gotten involved in this debate. All the opinions presented so far have come from humans, including the opinions in the bible.
It's very obvious that you have never read the Bible and have no clue about literary mechanisms. You'll never have a clue about the Western World until you fix that.

Reading the Bible really needs to be a spirit to spirit experience. If you repent and try to comply with God's precepts, you can KNOW that the Bible is indeed God's Word, and spirit will speak to spirit.

I'm sure that in your current state, this is totally incomprehensible to you.

Since: Aug 11

Location hidden

#22291 Jun 29, 2012
luv Sarah Palin wrote:
<quoted text>
Yet you rejoice as gays try to shove their agenda down the nations throat and add Obama's communist agenda.
What agenda. To be treated with respect? To have their families respected? To enjoy equal rights?

I don't see anything wrong with those things do you?

“Unconvinced”

Since: Nov 09

Seattle, WA

#22292 Jun 29, 2012
Nathan wrote:
It's very obvious that you have never read the Bible and have no clue about literary mechanisms. You'll never have a clue about the Western World until you fix that.
I've told you that I'm reading it now. What are you going to say once I'm finished?

I know plenty about literary mechanisms. Presumably you're talking about things like metaphor, simile, and parable. But all that means is that you admit that certain parts of the bible didn't actually happen. So what ELSE didn't actually happen? Once we can start doubting PART of it, we can doubt ANY AND ALL of it. Especially anything magical or supernatural.
Nathan wrote:
Reading the Bible really needs to be a spirit to spirit experience.
What exactly is "spirit"? What is it made out of? Where is it stored? What are its properties? What proof do you have that such a thing even exists?

Maybe you mean thoughts or emotions? Maybe those things are just confusing you? They can do that, if you let them run away without any sense of cautious objectivity. People believe in ALL KINDS of crazy "spirituality" around the world. Are they all correct about it? Or is only the spirituality that YOU believe in true?
Nathan wrote:
If you repent and try to comply with God's precepts, you can KNOW that the Bible is indeed God's Word, and spirit will speak to spirit.
So, first I have to choose to believe that this is all true, before I can believe that it's all true?

Do you have any logic that doesn't travel in circles?

When I want to KNOW things, I don't just hope and wish, and then decide that my own bubbling emotions confirm what I wished for.

We can't call something "knowledge" unless it can be absolutely verified to be true. It needs to be testable and measurable. It needs to be demonstrable and repeatable. It needs to be falsifiable. The stories of the bible are NONE of these things.

Muslims ALSO believe that their religion involves spiritual communication between themselves and their deity. Buddhists have similar beliefs. The same is true of Shintoists, Sikhs, Scientologists, and ANY religion that tells stories about supernatural beings.

What makes them wrong, and you right? What tests can we perform to tell the difference? Can you PROVE that you aren't simply being swept away by your emotions, like billions of OTHER humans in OTHER religions?
Nathan wrote:
I'm sure that in your current state, this is totally incomprehensible to you.
If there's a god who wants people to believe in him, then maybe he shouldn't allow the existence of some "state" which causes people to be curious and inquisitive, but not so incredulous that they'll believe ANY wacky story. What does a god have against skepticism?

An incident in India makes a good example. Catholics in Mumbai were enthralled by a "weeping" crucifix, until a local skeptical investigator showed that it was just leakage from nearby plumbing. Now, he faces JAIL for "hurting the religious sentiments of a particular community". For telling the TRUTH! For pointing out ACTUAL KNOWLEDGE!

What theists call "knowledge" has been allowed to pass VERY poor standards of confirmation. I'm not ready to believe in magic and ghosts so easily. Information and claims must pass much more stringent conditions before they can be called "knowledge".

Since: Aug 11

Location hidden

#22293 Jun 29, 2012
EdmondWA wrote:
<quoted text>
I've told you that I'm reading it now. What are you going to say once I'm finished?
I know plenty about literary mechanisms. Presumably you're talking about things like metaphor, simile, and parable. But all that means is that you admit that certain parts of the bible didn't actually happen. So what ELSE didn't actually happen? Once we can start doubting PART of it, we can doubt ANY AND ALL of it. Especially anything magical or supernatural.
<quoted text>
What exactly is "spirit"? What is it made out of? Where is it stored? What are its properties? What proof do you have that such a thing even exists?
Maybe you mean thoughts or emotions? Maybe those things are just confusing you? They can do that, if you let them run away without any sense of cautious objectivity. People believe in ALL KINDS of crazy "spirituality" around the world. Are they all correct about it? Or is only the spirituality that YOU believe in true?
<quoted text>
So, first I have to choose to believe that this is all true, before I can believe that it's all true?
Do you have any logic that doesn't travel in circles?
When I want to KNOW things, I don't just hope and wish, and then decide that my own bubbling emotions confirm what I wished for.
We can't call something "knowledge" unless it can be absolutely verified to be true. It needs to be testable and measurable. It needs to be demonstrable and repeatable. It needs to be falsifiable. The stories of the bible are NONE of these things.
Muslims ALSO believe that their religion involves spiritual communication between themselves and their deity. Buddhists have similar beliefs. The same is true of Shintoists, Sikhs, Scientologists, and ANY religion that tells stories about supernatural beings.
What makes them wrong, and you right? What tests can we perform to tell the difference? Can you PROVE that you aren't simply being swept away by your emotions, like billions of OTHER humans in OTHER religions?
<quoted text>
If there's a god who wants people to believe in him, then maybe he shouldn't allow the existence of some "state" which causes people to be curious and inquisitive, but not so incredulous that they'll believe ANY wacky story. What does a god have against skepticism?
An incident in India makes a good example. Catholics in Mumbai were enthralled by a "weeping" crucifix, until a local skeptical investigator showed that it was just leakage from nearby plumbing. Now, he faces JAIL for "hurting the religious sentiments of a particular community". For telling the TRUTH! For pointing out ACTUAL KNOWLEDGE!
What theists call "knowledge" has been allowed to pass VERY poor standards of confirmation. I'm not ready to believe in magic and ghosts so easily. Information and claims must pass much more stringent conditions before they can be called "knowledge".
We do have one talking snake in this group. ;)

“Unconvinced”

Since: Nov 09

Seattle, WA

#22294 Jun 29, 2012
WasteWater wrote:
We do have one talking snake in this group. ;)
I thought it was the talking ass.
Morgan

Lacon, IL

#22295 Jun 30, 2012
EdmondWA wrote:
<quoted text>
I thought it was the talking ass.
Your previous ignorant, bigoted post would indicate that to be the case.

If you really so disregarded God's Word, you wouldn't be here 24/7 posting hate and bigotry.

Obviously you are very guilty about your lifestyle choice, as well you should be.

Since: Aug 11

Location hidden

#22296 Jun 30, 2012
EdmondWA wrote:
<quoted text>
I thought it was the talking ass.
Yea that too. How about one of those dolls where you pull the string and they repeat the same stupid phrase over and over?

He just gave an excellent example with that tire lifestyle horse shite.

Since: Aug 11

Location hidden

#22297 Jun 30, 2012
God's Word right. So God wrote the Bible?

You must be kidding.

“Trolls are Clueless”

Since: Dec 07

Aptos, California

#22298 Jun 30, 2012
luv Sarah Palin wrote:
<quoted text>
Yet you rejoice as gays try to shove their agenda down the nations throat and add Obama's communist agenda.
I would call promoting personal freedom patriotism. If you want to call it an agenda, I don't care. Your comments about the president are goofy. You have been listening to too much talk radio. That stuff rots the mind.

“Trolls are Clueless”

Since: Dec 07

Aptos, California

#22299 Jun 30, 2012
EdmondWA wrote:
<quoted text>
I've told you that I'm reading it now. What are you going to say once I'm finished?
I know plenty about literary mechanisms. Presumably you're talking about things like metaphor, simile, and parable. But all that means is that you admit that certain parts of the bible didn't actually happen. So what ELSE didn't actually happen? Once we can start doubting PART of it, we can doubt ANY AND ALL of it. Especially anything magical or supernatural.
<quoted text>
What exactly is "spirit"? What is it made out of? Where is it stored? What are its properties? What proof do you have that such a thing even exists?
Maybe you mean thoughts or emotions? Maybe those things are just confusing you? They can do that, if you let them run away without any sense of cautious objectivity. People believe in ALL KINDS of crazy "spirituality" around the world. Are they all correct about it? Or is only the spirituality that YOU believe in true?
<quoted text>
So, first I have to choose to believe that this is all true, before I can believe that it's all true?
Do you have any logic that doesn't travel in circles?
When I want to KNOW things, I don't just hope and wish, and then decide that my own bubbling emotions confirm what I wished for.
We can't call something "knowledge" unless it can be absolutely verified to be true. It needs to be testable and measurable. It needs to be demonstrable and repeatable. It needs to be falsifiable. The stories of the bible are NONE of these things.
Muslims ALSO believe that their religion involves spiritual communication between themselves and their deity. Buddhists have similar beliefs. The same is true of Shintoists, Sikhs, Scientologists, and ANY religion that tells stories about supernatural beings.
What makes them wrong, and you right? What tests can we perform to tell the difference? Can you PROVE that you aren't simply being swept away by your emotions, like billions of OTHER humans in OTHER religions?
<quoted text>
If there's a god who wants people to believe in him, then maybe he shouldn't allow the existence of some "state" which causes people to be curious and inquisitive, but not so incredulous that they'll believe ANY wacky story. What does a god have against skepticism?
An incident in India makes a good example. Catholics in Mumbai were enthralled by a "weeping" crucifix, until a local skeptical investigator showed that it was just leakage from nearby plumbing. Now, he faces JAIL for "hurting the religious sentiments of a particular community". For telling the TRUTH! For pointing out ACTUAL KNOWLEDGE!
What theists call "knowledge" has been allowed to pass VERY poor standards of confirmation. I'm not ready to believe in magic and ghosts so easily. Information and claims must pass much more stringent conditions before they can be called "knowledge".
Well said!!!
interesting

Wylie, TX

#22300 Jun 30, 2012
Owen wrote:
<quoted text>If you feel God's Word abuses you, you truly should reconsider your homosexual lifestyle choice!!!!
Hellfire is real.
Hey stupid, you deserve to treated as poorly as you treat other people.

Idiotic jerk.
interesting

Wylie, TX

#22301 Jun 30, 2012
EdmondWA wrote:
<quoted text>
I've told you that I'm reading it now. What are you going to say once I'm finished?
I know plenty about literary mechanisms. Presumably you're talking about things like metaphor, simile, and parable. But all that means is that you admit that certain parts of the bible didn't actually happen. So what ELSE didn't actually happen? Once we can start doubting PART of it, we can doubt ANY AND ALL of it. Especially anything magical or supernatural.
<quoted text>
What exactly is "spirit"? What is it made out of? Where is it stored? What are its properties? What proof do you have that such a thing even exists?
Maybe you mean thoughts or emotions? Maybe those things are just confusing you? They can do that, if you let them run away without any sense of cautious objectivity. People believe in ALL KINDS of crazy "spirituality" around the world. Are they all correct about it? Or is only the spirituality that YOU believe in true?
<quoted text>
So, first I have to choose to believe that this is all true, before I can believe that it's all true?
Do you have any logic that doesn't travel in circles?
When I want to KNOW things, I don't just hope and wish, and then decide that my own bubbling emotions confirm what I wished for.
We can't call something "knowledge" unless it can be absolutely verified to be true. It needs to be testable and measurable. It needs to be demonstrable and repeatable. It needs to be falsifiable. The stories of the bible are NONE of these things.
Muslims ALSO believe that their religion involves spiritual communication between themselves and their deity. Buddhists have similar beliefs. The same is true of Shintoists, Sikhs, Scientologists, and ANY religion that tells stories about supernatural beings.
What makes them wrong, and you right? What tests can we perform to tell the difference? Can you PROVE that you aren't simply being swept away by your emotions, like billions of OTHER humans in OTHER religions?
<quoted text>
If there's a god who wants people to believe in him, then maybe he shouldn't allow the existence of some "state" which causes people to be curious and inquisitive, but not so incredulous that they'll believe ANY wacky story. What does a god have against skepticism?
An incident in India makes a good example. Catholics in Mumbai were enthralled by a "weeping" crucifix, until a local skeptical investigator showed that it was just leakage from nearby plumbing. Now, he faces JAIL for "hurting the religious sentiments of a particular community". For telling the TRUTH! For pointing out ACTUAL KNOWLEDGE!
What theists call "knowledge" has been allowed to pass VERY poor standards of confirmation. I'm not ready to believe in magic and ghosts so easily. Information and claims must pass much more stringent conditions before they can be called "knowledge".
Great post, except, don't use such big words for the little boy. He doesn't understand much. And short, to the point posts only work for him since he's got such a short attention span.
Owen

Lacon, IL

#22302 Jun 30, 2012
interesting wrote:
<quoted text>
Hey stupid, you deserve to treated as poorly as you treat other people.
Idiotic jerk.
It's the GOD of the Universes you have a problem with, not me.

Where do you think THAT is going???

God repeatedly condemns all homosexual behavior.

“Unconvinced”

Since: Nov 09

Seattle, WA

#22303 Jun 30, 2012
interesting wrote:
Great post, except, don't use such big words for the little boy. He doesn't understand much. And short, to the point posts only work for him since he's got such a short attention span.
My posts are rarely intended for him, actually. Somethimes I'm hoping that there are "fence-sitters" out there observing our conversations. I do my best to explain my position rationally and calmly, and I let him willingly play the "bad cop", which he does so well. Few people will want to converse like that, when they see it demonstrated. Hopefully they won't want to ally their beliefs to such extremist absolutism, either.
Owen

Lacon, IL

#22304 Jun 30, 2012
EdmondWA wrote:
<quoted text>
My posts are rarely intended for him, actually. Somethimes I'm hoping that there are "fence-sitters" out there observing our conversations. I do my best to explain my position rationally and calmly, and I let him willingly play the "bad cop", which he does so well. Few people will want to converse like that, when they see it demonstrated. Hopefully they won't want to ally their beliefs to such extremist absolutism, either.
You have failed to may any rational case against the FACT that the Bible condemns all homosexual behavior.

I hope you are bright enough to comprehend that.

You have failed to cite ANY Bible translation, ancient Bible text, or Judeo-Christian that places this fact in question.

“Unconvinced”

Since: Nov 09

Seattle, WA

#22305 Jun 30, 2012
Owen wrote:
It's the GOD of the Universes you have a problem with, not me.
Where do you think THAT is going???
God repeatedly condemns all homosexual behavior.
Sounds like a war propaganda slogan for the Nazi party.

"It's HITLER you have a problem with, not me, his devoted follower! Hitler repeatedly condems all Jewish behavior. I'm completely blameless for the inhumane policies I support!"

Except that we actually KNOW there was a Hitler, and that he ACTUALLY said things like that, condemning people even when they've committed no crimes. We don't actually KNOW that any god said ANYTHING, we just have HUMANS insisting that he did. Based on a book that includes bats on a list of birds, and features a conversation between a man and his donkey, in which the man is not at all surprised by his talking animal, but instead wishes to kill it for its disobedience.

It's not a mark of pride to take your moral cues from such childish nonsense, and it's not honorable to shun or condemn people who have committed no wrong against you. Whatever "good" can be brought into a person's life through religion, you are distorting it as an excuse to turn against your fellow humans.

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