Lincoln: 'Flawed Emanicipator'?

Lincoln: 'Flawed Emanicipator'?

There are 53 comments on the Examiner.com story from Oct 5, 2013, titled Lincoln: 'Flawed Emanicipator'?. In it, Examiner.com reports that:

The much anticipated Lincoln Trailer Debuts During Google Hangout Discussion with Steven Spielberg and Joseph Gordon-Levitt.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at Examiner.com.

Ish Tov

Since: Sep 13

Location hidden

#27 Oct 7, 2013
FlowFighter wrote:
<quoted text>
"So you need to shut up and let the educated intelligent folks do the talking."
OK..we will ... and you stick to trd licking...zionist piece of sht..LOL!!!!
Keep talking boy, let's see how deep your genocidal mentality goes...

You seem like quite the halfwitted drooling bigoted misfit, boy. You need correcting.

Ish Tov

Since: Sep 13

Location hidden

#29 Oct 7, 2013
X-TREME BIAS wrote:
Lincoln was a race traitor & a closet commie who got what he deserved by ruining the South, the only smart region in America that knew to make the blacks work for no pay, now one could only imagine the surplus of money America would have if the entire country made the feral blacks work for no pay & eliminate welfare, we would all be receiving monthly dividends from the government instead of paying taxes.
You're under surveillance.
Johnny

Milwaukee, WI

#31 Oct 7, 2013
Savant ----

You said "Right and Left are historical in meaning, and by the standards of THAT time, Lincoln was centrist with left leanings".---

Abraham, in regards to the White Southern slave owners, yes, he'd be considered centrist with left leanings.

But, Abraham, pretty much all of the Republicans & Democrats back then still didn't consider African Americans equal.

So, in regards to this facet, Abraham, pretty much all of the Republicans & Democrats back then would be considered centrist with Rightist leanings.
Johnny

Milwaukee, WI

#32 Oct 7, 2013
Savant ----

You said "Actually, he was opposed to slavery as the Kennedy's were later opposed to Jim Crow".---

I wouldn't consider what Abraham Lincoln faced similar to what Democrat John F. Kennedy (JFK) faced.

The dynamics were different.

You said "He had to be pushed into taking an anti-slavery stand".----

Well, Lincoln took an outward anti-slavery stance NOT because of any left wing anti-slavery grassroots movements in the Northern or Southern United States.

You said "Abolitionism and the requirements of war did push Lincoln-after Gettysburg victory-to issue the Emancipation Proclamation".----

It was especially the requirements of war for the North.

Political expediency on the part of Abraham.
Johnny

Milwaukee, WI

#33 Oct 7, 2013
Savant ----

You said "This DID give the North now a MORAL advantage both nationally and internationally".---True. But the North having a "moral advantage" is only symbolic.

The North having a "moral symbolism" didn't decide the Civil War.

The Civil War was decided on the battlefields. Especially in the Eastern Theater of operations.

You said "one Union soldier put it in a letter to his family - we are now the ARMED LIBERATERS of millions".----

What this Union soldier said, so what. I state "so what", because he & other Union soldiers didn't the control the means of production in the North.

This Union soldier & other Union soldiers were not the policy makers in the North.

This Union soldier & other Union soldiers were not the bankers or big businessmen in the North.

Johnny

Milwaukee, WI

#34 Oct 7, 2013
Savant ----

You said "Southerners couldn't just say that they were defending themselves and their "way of life" from invaders".---

Oh, even after the Emancipation Proclamation was issued.---- The White Southerners still continued to state that.

You said "for now they were clearly defending slavery".----

They were defending slavery. At the same time, they were still defending themselves & their "way of life".

You said "(In fact, they always were but could no longer hide this fact in the court of world opinion".---- True.

So what.

I state "so what", because what foreigners in foreign lands thought of the Civil War, had absolutely no bearing on the course of the Civil War.

The Civil War was decided on the battlefields of the United States.
Johnny

Milwaukee, WI

#35 Oct 7, 2013
Savant ----

You said "European countries were undecided about how to respond; conservative privileged classes were sympathetic to the South".--- True.

You said "and the laboring classes-always more advanced than American workers".---- Not necessarily.

One cannot compare the labor, political & social issues which White-European workers faced. Compared to what the American working class faced.

Europes history & culture is totally different. From the United States history & culture.

The European nations domestic affairs have been (Still are) totally different. Compared to the United States domestic affairs.

You said "clearly sided with the North".---- True.

You said "(I've read some letters by European workers to Lincoln in which they clearly saw slavery and the most degrading exploitation of labor, and the defeat of the Confederacy as in the interests of all working class people".----

This I don't doubt.

But, the White-European working class being sympathic to the North doesn't mean that they are sympathetic to African Americans.

It doesn't translate into the White-European working class feeling that African Americans are equal.

Because for many, many generations, White union leaders have been very racist against African Americans.

This is racism coming from the political left wing.

Racism is not just representative of the political Right wing. It is also representative of the political left wing.
Johnny

Milwaukee, WI

#36 Oct 7, 2013
Savant ----

You said "Also, read Karl Marx's letter in support of Lincoln and the Union".---

Granted, Karl Marx was against the South.

It doesn't mean that Karl was sympathetic to African Americans.

It doesn't mean that Karl considered African Americans equal.

Many, many times in the United States on the political left wing, in regards to unions.---- White union leaders & members have discriminated against African Americans.

In cases where White liberals / leftists have had alliances with African Americans.--- In each & every one of these cases, the White liberals / leftists have always been in a way more dominant position. OVER the African Americans.

This has especially been the case with unions.
Johnny

Milwaukee, WI

#37 Oct 7, 2013
Savant ---

You said "Lincoln had to be PUSHED to the left".---

Well, Lincoln being "pushed" leftward was not due to any left wing grassroots movement in the North or in the South.

Abraham went a bit left wing because of political expediency.

These are the reasons why Lincoln issued the Emancipation Proclamation.---

1. The North needed a rallying cry.

2. Abraham had to make it outwardly look like the Norths cause in fighting the Civil War was "just" & "noble".

3. When Lincoln put forward the Emancipation Proclamation, the Norths armies were not doing well at all. Especially in the Eastern Theater of operations.

4. Abraham put forward the Emancipation Proclamation to keep England & France from supporting the Confederate forces.
Johnny

Milwaukee, WI

#38 Oct 7, 2013
Savant ----

You said "But the REAL right couldn't be pushed to end a system of bondage that enriched them. They had to be CRUSHED".---

True.

Slavery was one of the factors which led to the outbreak of the United States Civil War.

But, what created & propelled Southern slavery?---

Southern banking & big businesses.

The Civil War broke out because of these factors.---

1. The big bankers of the North. Being in rivalry with the big bankers of the South.

2. The big businessmen of the North. Being in rivalry with the big businessmen of the South.

3. The big bankers & big businessmen of the North wanting the territory of the United States West.

4. The big bankers & big businessmen of the South wanting the territory of the United States West.
Johnny

Milwaukee, WI

#39 Oct 7, 2013
Savant ----

Which shows that the United States Civil War was not fought for African Americans well being.----

After the Civil War ended, African Americans received "freedom" in name only.

For many generations after, African Americans were doing the exact, same type of labor such as what their ancestors did when the United States had the system of legal slavery.

For many generations after, African Americans were used as a very cheap labor suppy in agriculture & industry.

As a voting bloc.

From 1865 till 1964.---- The United States had Jim Crow laws. There were many laws on the books. Which denied African Americans many, many rights.

This shows that the Civil War was not fought for African Americans well being. African Americans well being was not at the forefront.

Since: Oct 12

Location hidden

#40 Oct 8, 2013
This thread is an embarrassment for Public Education.....
Johnny

Milwaukee, WI

#41 Oct 17, 2013
Go Blue Forever wrote:
This thread is an embarrassment for Public Education.....
__________

Go Blue, how's it going?

It has been quite awhile since we blogged last. Last time was back in March, 2012. About the incident in Florida.

Before that, our blog discussions about the University of Michigan football, Chicago Blackhawks, Chicago Bulls, Detroit Pistons & Bill Daly.
Johnny

Milwaukee, WI

#42 Oct 17, 2013
Ish Tov ----

You said "The fact is, the northern capitalists wanted slavery to end because it was not good economically, it inhibited southern industrialization and so on".----

You are absolutely correct.

You said "It still was about slavery".---- Granted, slavery was one of the factors. But, slavery was not at the forefront.

You said "even if the motive was just business rather than moral outrage".----

Yep, the Civil War was not fought due to any "moral outrage".

What propelled slavery?---- Banking & businesses.

What was at the forefront of the United States Civil War breaking out? Being fought for its duration?----

The Northern banking & big business entities. Against the Southern banking & big business entities.
Johnny

Milwaukee, WI

#43 Oct 17, 2013
FlowFighter wrote:
<quoted text>the northeast based textiles industry loved the availability of cheap slave produced cotton from the south. furthermore an industrialized south would not necessarily have been in the best economic interests of the north.
__________

Your 2 points above.----- You are absolutely correct.
Johnny

Milwaukee, WI

#44 Oct 17, 2013
Ish Tov wrote:
<quoted text>Oh perhaps they'd have been building the factories, since the southerners had no expertise.
__________

The North had way more industry. But, the South did have industry (Albeit quite a bit less than the North).

The Southern leaders of industry had expertise in building factories. Expertise in machinery & maintaining factories.

Whatever deficiencies which the Southern leaders of industry had, they could have solved it by getting assistance from Europeans.

Since: Oct 12

Location hidden

#45 Oct 18, 2013
Johnny wrote:
<quoted text>
__________
Go Blue, how's it going?
It has been quite awhile since we blogged last. Last time was back in March, 2012. About the incident in Florida.
Before that, our blog discussions about the University of Michigan football, Chicago Blackhawks, Chicago Bulls, Detroit Pistons & Bill Daly.
Seem's that Chicago Blackhawks have been the ones to make the most progress...lol....Bill Daly?.....Did you see the film, Lincoln?....Daniel Day Lewis's portrayal was magic....

“Yes WE Can! Yes we Will!”

Since: Jul 07

Baltimore, Md.

#46 Oct 19, 2013
Johnny wrote:
Ish Tov ----
You said "The fact is, the northern capitalists wanted slavery to end because it was not good economically, it inhibited southern industrialization and so on".----
You are absolutely correct.
You said "It still was about slavery".---- Granted, slavery was one of the factors. But, slavery was not at the forefront.
You said "even if the motive was just business rather than moral outrage".----
Yep, the Civil War was not fought due to any "moral outrage".
What propelled slavery?---- Banking & businesses.
What was at the forefront of the United States Civil War breaking out? Being fought for its duration?----
The Northern banking & big business entities. Against the Southern banking & big business entities.
W.E.B. Du Bois makes a similar argument, if I recall, in BLACK RECONSTRUCTION. A conflict between agrarian inteests based on slavery, and industrial interests based on the exploitation of "free labor".
Abolitionists and some others were moved by moral motivations. Capitalists were not, but their own interests eventually became incompatible with slavery--with CHATTEL slavery, not "wage slavery."
Johnny

Milwaukee, WI

#47 Oct 23, 2013
Go Blue Forever wrote:
<quoted text> Seem's that Chicago Blackhawks have been the ones to make the most progress.
__________

I totally agree.

Rocky Wirtz trading picks in 2005-2006. The players which Rocky acquired. It sure did pay off. Primarily these guys.-----

Jonathan Toews, Patrick Kane, Andrew Ladd, Cristobal Huet, Brian Campbell, Troy Brouwer, Patrick Sharp, Tomas Kopecky, Antti Niemi, Marian Hossa & Ben Eager.

Rocky picking up Jonathan Toews & Patrick Kane was very critical. Primarily for the success of the 2010 Blackhawks team.
Johnny

Milwaukee, WI

#48 Oct 23, 2013
Go Blue Forever wrote:
<quoted text>Bill Daly?
__________

Excuse me, I meant the other Daly, Chuck. Back in around June, 2010 we blogged about Bill, the attorney & Deputy Commissioner & chief legal officer of the National Hockey League. Also, about Chuck Daly.

I meant Chuck. Chucks Detroit Piston team from the autumn, 1988 till spring, 1990.

How that Piston team stressed defense. How they were able to dominate over the Los Angeles Lakers & over the Chicago Bulls.

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