Border Drones Fly Into Fight Over Immigration

Jun 11, 2013 Full story: National Public Radio 75

A Predator drone operated by U.S. Customs and Border Protection's Office of Air and Marine taxis for a flight over southern Arizona near the Mexican border on March 7 from Fort Huachuca in Sierra Vista, Ariz.

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Since: Oct 12

Location hidden

#49 Jun 14, 2013
GulchGeek wrote:
<quoted text>My point was in the last sentence of that post, which seems to have gone over your head, so preoccupied as you were with some notion of *permissible killings per mile.*
According to your response, you feel that a certain number of killings by US border agents are justifiable and okay, such figure corresponding to the US-Mexico border length. Thus, since our 1,969 mile border is twenty times the length of the 96 mile-long Berlin Wall (not the 300:1 or greater ratio you suggested), we can feel alright about what we are doing unless our kill rate exceeds ninety UAs per year (that's 4.5x20). But since we want look sincere in waving the banner of Freedom, maybe set a kindlier, gentler average annual limit at 50? Then, when we face international criticism, we can cry, "But the Russians killed twice as many!"
As demonstrated by this and your failure to explain the "Illegal Crossings Up 9%..." statement which I addressed you about, you do a lot of rising and hollering with very weak legs to stand on. Perhaps you're just too busy with typing up 20,000/year Topix posts to take time to actually think about what you write.
"Killing by border guards"?.....WTF?......I never mentioned killing, are you insane?

Since: Oct 12

Location hidden

#50 Jun 14, 2013
GulchGeek wrote:
My apology for getting 'Go Blue Forever' conflated with another poster. Last paragraph of my response as well as much of my ire expressed to 'Go Blue Forever' was under the mistaken impression that he/she had also authored post #32 by 'Le Jimbo.'
...Thanks....we're cool.....
onceuponatime

Bisbee, AZ

#51 Jun 14, 2013
GulchGeek wrote:
<quoted text>You're correct: it is not an exact comparison, but what both have in common is the killing of economic or political refugees. Your own 'education' may fall a little short in the area of international diplomacy, image-building, and the repercussions - both subtle and overt - from going about this immigration problem with what likely appears in most other parts of the world as a big, ugly stick.
Consider this matter in a more worldly head-space, such as the general world view if South Korean patrols began killing starving North Koreans to keep them from crossing into the vastly wealthier south. Or if any wealthy country (other than the US) was actually killing economic refugees in their efforts to keep them out. Fed the brute facts along with normal tweakings and distortions of national politics/prejudices/cultural sensibilities, the general opinion among most nations is not kind to such policies.
But then, to those for whom solutions are found through might, guns and bomb-sights, I'm just some dumb, naive cluck whistling into the wind.
Again, I feel you are comparing apples to oranges. You are right, however, in the assessment of my education in how others look at us, because I don't care, but my thoughts on the situation vary greatly from yours. I believe that the United States should have taken a more active role in the development of our neighbors to the south through our very generous foreign aid programs, working from our sphere of neighbors outward, and not meddled in areas where we are not only not wanted, but are extremely ineffective, to the point of destructive in some cases, to those societies. I think Egypt is a prime example of a recent failure, and I'm afraid Syria will be next. I am not mentioning the bang-up jobs we have done in Iraq and Afghanistan because they were military ventures, not diplomatic.
My education may fall short in the area of international diplomacy, but for you to allude to our current situation with Mexico as being a viable answer under international diplomatic guidelines is as questionable as your definition of "economic refugees" and your comparisons to other situations around the globe.
I am a veteran, but I am not a 'shoot first - ask questions later' person.

“Geekhood Is Greatness”

Since: Feb 11

Location hidden

#53 Jun 14, 2013
Go Blue Forever wrote:
<quoted text>"Killing by border guards"?.....WTF?......I never mentioned killing, are you insane?
No, I'm not insane. Perhaps it's a lack of reading comprehension skills that leads you to suggest it. Continuity of context and all that, you know.

“Geekhood Is Greatness”

Since: Feb 11

Location hidden

#54 Jun 14, 2013
onceuponatime wrote:
<quoted text>
Again, I feel you are comparing apples to oranges. You are right, however, in the assessment of my education in how others look at us, because I don't care, but my thoughts on the situation vary greatly from yours. I believe that the United States should have taken a more active role in the development of our neighbors to the south through our very generous foreign aid programs, working from our sphere of neighbors outward, and not meddled in areas where we are not only not wanted, but are extremely ineffective, to the point of destructive in some cases, to those societies. I think Egypt is a prime example of a recent failure, and I'm afraid Syria will be next. I am not mentioning the bang-up jobs we have done in Iraq and Afghanistan because they were military ventures, not diplomatic.
My education may fall short in the area of international diplomacy, but for you to allude to our current situation with Mexico as being a viable answer under international diplomatic guidelines is as questionable as your definition of "economic refugees" and your comparisons to other situations around the globe.
I am a veteran, but I am not a 'shoot first - ask questions later' person.
I've heard that "I don't care [what they think about us]" stuff a lot among overseas military personnel:'I don't give a damn what they think, we're here to help them!'

For nearly ten years over the past four decades I have resided in both northern and southern regions of Mexico, sharing friendships and acquaintances with Mexican society ranging from peasant 1-hectare corn and bean farmers to the rich and powerful. In the early 90's I began noticing government-sponsored late-night TV propaganda which made a human rights ('Derechos Humanos') issue of Mexican citizens illegally crossing into the US ('El Norte') to seek basic livelihoods. Such propaganda seemed as ludicrous as if the US government were to encourage Americans too poor to afford health care to sneak into Canada and tap into their benefits. I brought this up with the then-CEO of Televisa who, uncomfortable and embarrassed with the subject, merely stated, "It means,'We have no place or plans for the poor and uneducated overburden of the country here in Mexico. They can go north, or just die: we don't care'."

In the northern provinces I heard countless stories of pregnant Mexican women crossing the border to give birth in our 'free' hospitals so that their 'American' children could provide the family with golden eggs. In one instance, it was the Chief of Police of an interior city who proudly bragged to me about how all five of his children were US-born.

I knew a number of individuals who spent one day annually in California, renewing their unemployment benefits. A schoolteacher friend in southern Chihuahua built a nice large house with continuing funds derived from two weeks of apple-picking six years before. And, many such 'guests' voted in US elections.

Twenty years ago I found the situation to be a bleak foreshadowing of the future. But upon sharing this information here in the US, I was scoffed at as an alarmist - possibly even a racist. Nobody cared. And now, few seem to care about what 'monsters' we are creating of ourselves through policies which completely evade dealing with the true crux of the situation.

Since you question my use of the term, "economic refugees," I suggest you enter into your search engine "Mexican economic refugees." Of all the material available on this subject, I recommend you devote some quality reading time to: http://www.larouchepub.com/eiw/public/2004/20...

Since: Oct 12

Location hidden

#55 Jun 14, 2013
GulchGeek wrote:
<quoted text>No, I'm not insane. Perhaps it's a lack of reading comprehension skills that leads you to suggest it. Continuity of context and all that, you know.
Likewise Post#50......Anyway, i have had the Drone/Southern Border concept for a long time.....mainly though, just to help direct ground unit's from above.....or say, helicopters?.....

“Geekhood Is Greatness”

Since: Feb 11

Location hidden

#57 Jun 15, 2013
Focusing on illegal entries from Mexico the way we do is like shaving off the tip of an iceberg in the belief that the iceberg to go away. And not knowing what to do with the shavings, we toss them back into the sea where they recongeal with the original berg, causing its surface area to only grow. Expressed in other terms, we are treating the symptoms, but not the condition producing the symptoms, and until we begin addressing the condition, the symptoms will likely only multiply.

In the page I previously cited ( http://www.larouchepub.com/eiw/public/2004/20... ), the relationship between the symptoms and the condition is clarified quite brilliantly. Instead of this costly and perilous game of Whack-a-Mole we've been playing, we need to earnestly assess the underlying condition and apply our resources toward fixing it. If we don't, we may see a not-to-distant future day when Mexico is cozier with China than with us.

If the impetus behind the Mexican migration is defused, the ability of Middle-East or other terrorists to enter the US under the cover of a reduced or nonexistent Mexican migration will be proportionally reduced.

Since: Oct 12

Location hidden

#59 Jun 15, 2013
We need Congress to work out a viable solution...we need many of them for agricultural work....if we don't want prices to rise...unfortunatly the assistance crowd, can't do any real work.....TO be honest, anyone that's really worried about illegals taking their job....is a major disappointment in America.....o
Oh My

Kansas City, MO

#60 Jun 16, 2013
Go Blue Forever wrote:
We need Congress to work out a viable solution...we need many of them for agricultural work....if we don't want prices to rise...unfortunatly the assistance crowd, can't do any real work.....TO be honest, anyone that's really worried about illegals taking their job....is a major disappointment in America.....o
You're full of chit!
onceuponatime

Bisbee, AZ

#61 Jun 16, 2013
GulchGeek wrote:
<quoted text>I've heard that "I don't care [what they think about us]" stuff a lot among overseas military personnel:'I don't give a damn what they think, we're here to help them!'
For nearly ten years over the past four decades I have resided in both northern and southern regions of Mexico, sharing friendships and acquaintances with Mexican society ranging from peasant 1-hectare corn and bean farmers to the rich and powerful. In the early 90's I began noticing government-sponsored late-night TV propaganda which made a human rights ('Derechos Humanos') issue of Mexican citizens illegally crossing into the US ('El Norte') to seek basic livelihoods. Such propaganda seemed as ludicrous as if the US government were to encourage Americans too poor to afford health care to sneak into Canada and tap into their benefits. I brought this up with the then-CEO of Televisa who, uncomfortable and embarrassed with the subject, merely stated, "It means,'We have no place or plans for the poor and uneducated overburden of the country here in Mexico. They can go north, or just die: we don't care'."
In the northern provinces I heard countless stories of pregnant Mexican women crossing the border to give birth in our 'free' hospitals so that their 'American' children could provide the family with golden eggs. In one instance, it was the Chief of Police of an interior city who proudly bragged to me about how all five of his children were US-born.
I knew a number of individuals who spent one day annually in California, renewing their unemployment benefits. A schoolteacher friend in southern Chihuahua built a nice large house with continuing funds derived from two weeks of apple-picking six years before. And, many such 'guests' voted in US elections.
Twenty years ago I found the situation to be a bleak foreshadowing of the future. But upon sharing this information here in the US, I was scoffed at as an alarmist - possibly even a racist. Nobody cared. And now, few seem to care about what 'monsters' we are creating of ourselves through policies which completely evade dealing with the true crux of the situation.
Since you question my use of the term, "economic refugees," I suggest you enter into your search engine "Mexican economic refugees." Of all the material available on this subject, I recommend you devote some quality reading time to: http://www.larouchepub.com/eiw/public/2004/20...
Prior to this post, I actually felt that my writing was unable to convey my points and meanings. I was curious as to why you would always take what I had written and convert it to a completely different meaning in your responses. I now know that you use a Marxist economist with a huge personal agenda as your definitive guide. While your Lyndon Larouche self-serving article on Mexican economics had some accurate facts, a large part of the finger pointing blame for the situation, and the hysterically funny solution were typical Larouche. His attitude of "don't let the facts stand in the way of my awesomeness" is shining through. I hope you did not take too much time away from your birthday celebration for Che when writing this. I will not be engaging you in further posts. You can get back to making your bright red party favors.

“Geekhood Is Greatness”

Since: Feb 11

Location hidden

#63 Jun 18, 2013
You are confused, onceuponatime.

In post #43 second paragraph you argued for maintaining American sovereignty through increased border vigilance. At least that's what it seemed in your words, "the number of other countries worldwide that would permit the illegal flow across their borders, even of a much smaller magnitude than we are now experiencing, is pretty much zero." Frankly, I am all for maintaining our national sovereignty, but not in the ineffective way we've been trying; ineffective because we are largely dealing with an "economic refugee" problem, the cause of which is not being resolved by
Mexico and other Central American countries.

In post #51 you were critical of US policies of the past, stating, "....the United States should have taken a more active role in the development of our neighbors to the south through our very generous foreign aid programs..." That said, and without opening things up to a discussion of such failures, you went on to suggest that I hold "our current [border] situation with Mexico as being a viable answer under international diplomatic guidelines." That malarky implies that I either support exactly what I have been critical of, or that perhaps I'm for just allowing undocumented immigrants to swarm past an incapacitated border enforcement agency. Nonsense, in both cases.

I repeat, you are confused. After my then describing at length what I consider assaults on the American sovereignty, economy, and domestic programs by a government (Mexico) dumping its poor, uneducated and unskilled on our shoulders, I described how I was - two decades ago, when nobody cared - concerned about where this was leading (which is where it is now). Reread the next-to-last paragraph of my post #54, and recognize in it that you were probably as indifferent as everybody else. After you took issue with the term, "economic refugee," I suggested you do a search to better familiarize yourself with the actual problem we are dealing with. Let me add here that had our foreign economic and developmental aid programs of the past not been the failures that you yourself call them, we may have never had this 'dumping' problem with Mexico.

In addition to suggesting you do a search of your own, I pointed you at the Larouche report because it was succinct and clear in its dissection of the migration situation. That was all; had I realized that you, unable to separate grain from chaff, would come back at me like a crotchety old lady squawking about Marxist agendas and Che Guevera worship as if you had been tainted by an encounter with Satan, I would not have done so.

I used to hear a lot of those 'pinko marxist commie' accusations in the 50's and 60's. Might that also be when your intellect became ossified? Before you became a 'once upon a time'? Sorry, but I expect better of you.

Since: Nov 08

Paris

#64 Jun 18, 2013
Go Blue Forever wrote:
We need Congress to work out a viable solution...we need many of them for agricultural work....if we don't want prices to rise...unfortunatly the assistance crowd, can't do any real work.....TO be honest, anyone that's really worried about illegals taking their job....is a major disappointment in America.....o
You might want to call Pelosi's if your really need them for farm work, since she cut off the water to some of California's biggest farm area's for political reasons of saving some little fish no one ever heard of. She put over 300,000 people out of work.
spocko

Oakland, CA

#67 Jun 18, 2013
Le Jimbo wrote:
<quoted text>You might want to call Pelosi's if your really need them for farm work, since she cut off the water to some of California's biggest farm area's for political reasons of saving some little fish no one ever heard of. She put over 300,000 people out of work.
El Bimbo -- the daily dose of idiocy ...

Since: Oct 12

Location hidden

#68 Jun 18, 2013
spocko wrote:
<quoted text>
El Bimbo -- the daily dose of idiocy ...
His problem and that of many here, is that they have dug in to deep for the Reich....to even, be able to see the light......When jimbo, vance and cat are on the same thread, it has spoiled.....

Since: Nov 08

Paris

#69 Jun 18, 2013
spocko wrote:
<quoted text>
El Bimbo -- the daily dose of idiocy ...
Run pookie, dem facts gonna bit ya.

Since: Nov 08

Paris

#70 Jun 18, 2013
Go Blue Forever wrote:
<quoted text>His problem and that of many here, is that they have dug in to deep for the Reich....to even, be able to see the light......When jimbo, vance and cat are on the same thread, it has spoiled.....
BILL AYERS: President should be tried for 'war crimes'...
Justin

United States

#72 Jun 18, 2013
Mexico secures it's southern border with Guatemala using barbed wire, bullets, and mass graves.

If the drone is not armed with missiles, just being used for surveillance, then the only issue I see here is wether it's efficient use of tax payer funds.

The US border patrol saves the lives of hundreds of Mexican citizens each year who would otherwise have been lost in the desert, drowned in the river, or killed Mexican trafficers.

Since: Nov 08

Paris

#73 Jun 18, 2013
tea-baggage wrote:
<quoted text>
just more worthless dumbo-spama lama ding dong ..
hahahaha can't handle the truth I see. Run pookie Run.
just the facts

Bisbee, AZ

#75 Jun 25, 2013
In light of the immigration bill they are fighting over to pass, we are waaaaaayyyy to focused on Mexicans. If we grant amnesty to illegal aliens, we don't just allow illegal Mexicans to stay, we allow another group...terrorists, oh, I'm sorry let me be PC: OTM's
http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/defenseandsecur...
just the facts

Bisbee, AZ

#76 Jun 25, 2013
just the facts wrote:
In light of the immigration bill they are fighting over to pass, we are waaaaaayyyy to focused on Mexicans. If we grant amnesty to illegal aliens, we don't just allow illegal Mexicans to stay, we allow another group...terrorists, oh, I'm sorry let me be PC: OTM's
http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/defenseandsecur...
And this was written 3 years ago...

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