Costs of end-of-life care in health-reform debate

Hospice nurse, Carrie Kierner, right, checks Wanda Owens, 67, of Columbus, who must use oxygen and whose prognosis is bleak. Full Story
Lady

Grove City, OH

#1 Aug 16, 2009
From those of us who will be coming your way, let us thank you now.
Mrs Smith

Mount Victory, OH

#2 Aug 17, 2009
My understanding of the provision that WAS in the health care bill is that there would be MANDATORY visits from "end-of-life" counselors for EVERY senior citizen. This doesn't sound like a "visit" (What doctor visits patients?) from a physician, but a hired bureaucrat keeping an eye on who should be persuaded to give up expensive care rather than live as long as possible. In any case this matter is moot because it has been dropped. But don't be fooled. Care for terminally ill or severely handicapped people can easily be limited in other ways. It's called rationing, and it's the obvious conclusion, if you use your human reasoning and observation of other government-run institutions. Care is already limited or denied for people who smoke or are overweight in England, who already has this type of health care program. This is easily confirmed by searching for articles in UK newspapers. This bill is seeking control of the way people live their lives with the threat of no medical treatment hanging over their heads if they do not do as told in their daily life. Think about it.
Lawyer

AOL

#3 Aug 17, 2009
Mrs Smith wrote:
My understanding of the provision that WAS in the health care bill is that there would be MANDATORY visits from "end-of-life" counselors for EVERY senior citizen.
Your understanding is wrong: the government is not going to "force" visits on anyone. And you should stop listening to whatever liars you've been listening to. The author of the provision has explained that this much-lied-about provision was intended as a compassionate measure to provide counseling for older people who wanted it. You are the victim of a vicious ugly lie campaign conducted by an industry lobbyist and repeated by awful, self-centered immoral people like Sarah Palin and John Boehner.
Lawyer

AOL

#4 Aug 17, 2009
Fiction & Fact on Healthcare -- from yesterday's Dispatch article by reporter Jack Torry:

Claim: Former Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin and other conservatives say the House health-care bills have a section encouraging euthanasia for older people. Some critics speak of "death panels."

Fact: No such panel exists in any bill. The House bills would let Medicare pay doctors for voluntary counseling on end-of-life issues, such as living wills.
David Scott

Columbus, OH

#5 Aug 17, 2009
For an intelligent treatment of the real topic of end of life care, read Dr. Sherwin Newland's award-winning book "How We Die." We spend a staggering amount of health care money for the privilege of getting expensive invasive procedures that don't work while we die in sterile hospital rooms. Quite aside from the vicious sicko lies about the bill spread by vermin like Palin and Boehner, there is a real subject here worthy of a rational discussion: how much high-tech health care is enough at the end of life, and at what point is it neither cost effective nor even good for the patient?

“Killing range: 1,350m”

Since: Oct 08

your backyard

#6 Aug 17, 2009
Lawyer wrote:
Fiction & Fact on Healthcare -- from yesterday's Dispatch article by reporter Jack Torry:
Claim: Former Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin and other conservatives say the House health-care bills have a section encouraging euthanasia for older people. Some critics speak of "death panels."
Fact: No such panel exists in any bill. The House bills would let Medicare pay doctors for voluntary counseling on end-of-life issues, such as living wills.
gee someone with a real and balanced view on the subject.
Can we get you stuffed or cloned.
Australia has had medicare for many years and while it could always be better, no one is turned away nor has to have private health insurance.
Hey, and the sky has not fallen in, we are not mass killing our old or unborn and we are about to extend it to full dental care as well.

A first world country should not have third world health care.
agree?
skip

United States

#7 Aug 17, 2009
Mrs Smith wrote:
My understanding of the provision that WAS in the health care bill is that there would be MANDATORY visits from "end-of-life" counselors for EVERY senior citizen. This doesn't sound like a "visit" (What doctor visits patients?) from a physician, but a hired bureaucrat keeping an eye on who should be persuaded to give up expensive care rather than live as long as possible. In any case this matter is moot because it has been dropped. But don't be fooled. Care for terminally ill or severely handicapped people can easily be limited in other ways. It's called rationing, and it's the obvious conclusion, if you use your human reasoning and observation of other government-run institutions. Care is already limited or denied for people who smoke or are overweight in England, who already has this type of health care program. This is easily confirmed by searching for articles in UK newspapers. This bill is seeking control of the way people live their lives with the threat of no medical treatment hanging over their heads if they do not do as told in their daily life. Think about it.
WROOOOOONG! Try again dumbass you're not even lukewarm. Have you ever lived in the UK?? DIDNT THINK SO, I DID and you don't have a clue. Next time you stick your head up your ass for information keep it there and don't come out.
Lawyer

Columbus, OH

#8 Aug 17, 2009
mostly numb but good wrote:
<quoted text>
gee someone with a real and balanced view on the subject.
Can we get you stuffed or cloned.
Australia has had medicare for many years and while it could always be better, no one is turned away nor has to have private health insurance.
Hey, and the sky has not fallen in, we are not mass killing our old or unborn and we are about to extend it to full dental care as well.
A first world country should not have third world health care.
agree?
I quoted an article from the Columbus Dispatch refuting the lie that there is some mandatory bureaucratic forced end of life counseling in the bill. There isn't.

“Killing range: 1,350m”

Since: Oct 08

your backyard

#9 Aug 17, 2009
David Scott wrote:
For an intelligent treatment of the real topic of end of life care, read Dr. Sherwin Newland's award-winning book "How We Die." We spend a staggering amount of health care money for the privilege of getting expensive invasive procedures that don't work while we die in sterile hospital rooms. Quite aside from the vicious sicko lies about the bill spread by vermin like Palin and Boehner, there is a real subject here worthy of a rational discussion: how much high-tech health care is enough at the end of life, and at what point is it neither cost effective nor even good for the patient?
Interesting question.

While I can only comment from an Oz pov;
we do not have euthanasia here (well one state had it for a short time) we do seem to 'let people go' when they are on life support where as US policy seems to keep ppl going well past their 'used by date'. Excuse me if I sound a bit harsh here.
Our public health care seems to prioritise young before old and those that will survive over those with little chance.
for example an alcoholic was just refused a liver transplant due to little chance of survival.
do doubt the liver will go to one who has a better chance
So I gather that those who want 'full' care regardless of age of health would have to have private cover.

This is not new.
Doctors always have had to make choices as to who gets health care.
David Scott

Columbus, OH

#10 Aug 17, 2009
mostly numb but good wrote:
<quoted text>
Doctors always have had to make choices as to who gets health care.
Doctors do that here too. Unfortunately, the US system also "chooses" who gets health care by denying all but emergency treatment to millions who can't get insurance, which is an abomination we must end. But again, the US spends a staggering proportion of health care dollars in the last six months of people's lives, and there is good reason to question whether we're even serving patients well, let alone taxpayers. If you're going to die soon anyway, many would opt to die with effective pain medication at home with family and friends, not in some ICU unit with tubes inside them.

“Killing range: 1,350m”

Since: Oct 08

your backyard

#11 Aug 17, 2009
David Scott wrote:
<quoted text>
Doctors do that here too. Unfortunately, the US system also "chooses" who gets health care by denying all but emergency treatment to millions who can't get insurance, which is an abomination we must end. But again, the US spends a staggering proportion of health care dollars in the last six months of people's lives, and there is good reason to question whether we're even serving patients well, let alone taxpayers......
is this in part due to the 'god botherers' right to life hold over politics?

It is just cruel to prevent people from passing on by keeping them alive on machines.

I hear people going crazy over USA health reform saying they will not pay for abortions! WTF.
We crossed that bridge a long long time ago in Oz, no more back yard illegal abortions now. No more women die because of them and children are born to parents who actually want them.

religion has no place in health care, or public policy in general.
David Scott

AOL

#12 Aug 17, 2009
mostly numb but good wrote:
<quoted text>
is this in part due to the 'god botherers' right to life hold over politics?
It is just cruel to prevent people from passing on by keeping them alive on machines.
.
I don't entirely know the reasons we spend so much on care in the last six months. The US is far more religious than most European nations. Our fee for service system provides incentives to treat, as do fears of liability. US hospitals have lots of pricey equipment around and it gets used. But a far better source on this than me is Dr Sherwin Newland's "How We Die," which I think won a National Book Award. He's very good on this topic.
David Scott

AOL

#13 Aug 17, 2009
mostly numb but good wrote:
<quoted text>
is this in part due to the 'god botherers' right to life hold over politics?
It is just cruel to prevent people from passing on by keeping them alive on machines.
What does seem obvious, when a nation spends a huge portion of its health care spending on hospital care in the last six months of patients's lives, is that we may not be spending that money very wisely. Even from a patient's perspective.
Reader

Columbus, OH

#14 Aug 18, 2009
Glad to see there's so much sentiment in favor of our God-given right to die alone hooked up to five machines at two thousand bucks a day.

“Killing range: 1,350m”

Since: Oct 08

your backyard

#15 Aug 20, 2009
David Scott wrote:
<quoted text>
What does seem obvious, when a nation spends a huge portion of its health care spending on hospital care in the last six months of patients's lives, is that we may not be spending that money very wisely. Even from a patient's perspective.
Goodpoint!

IF there was good preventitive health care they might not have gotten so sick.
The Australian Gov is finally working out how to include dental into public health as they finally (!) worked out that if you can't eat because of bad teeth you are going to get sick...and then no doubt cost more.

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