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41 - 60 of 76 Comments Last updated Aug 23, 2012
Dr_G

Florianópolis, Brazil

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#41
Aug 25, 2011
 

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Ethics Always wrote:
Criticisms and misuse
Georg Feuerstein, a Buddhist who also trained in Hindu Tantra, writes in the epilogue of his book Tantra: Path of Ecstasy:
"Many are attracted to Neo-Tantrism because it promises sexual excitement or fulfillment while clothing purely genital impulses or neurotic emotional needs in an aura of spirituality. If we knew more about the history of Tantra in India, we would no doubt find a comparable situation for every generation." He goes on to say, "Today translations of several major Tantras are readily available in book form... This gives would-be Tantrics the opportunity to concoct their own idiosyncratic ceremonies and philosophies, which they can then promote as Tantra."[10]
As I guess Christians to concoct their own idiosyncractic dogmas and practices - witness the great variety of "Christian" denominations and sects all professing the "true teachings" of the scritures and related early Christian texts (e.g. City of God, Confessions, etc.). Hinduism is a very complex religion with many traditions, from Vedic to Bhakti and beyond. However the topic I raised for this thread seems to define a fairly consistent concept, at least in the Western world (including here in Brazil) which derives from one of the Hindu traditions, although there are elements of Taoism in the teachings of some practicioners.
Hotdude

Hollywood, FL

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#42
Aug 25, 2011
 

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"Many are attracted to Neo-Tantrism because it promises sexual excitement or fulfillment while clothing purely genital impulses or neurotic emotional needs in an aura of spirituality"

So this guy does not agree with what many people are preaching and teaching as Tantra, and from your many posts high up above us commoners, you also do not agree with them. Well, that is 2 opinions, but that does not make them right or wrong. You obviously have high moral standards and do not like what many therapist are doing, but that does not give you the right to barge in and tell them to stop or change their practice! What goes on in a private setting between 2 consenting adults is their business and not ours.
LMT

Akron, OH

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#43
Sep 10, 2011
 

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(CNN)-- A church called the Phoenix Goddess Temple has been accused of being a house of prostitution, and a six-month undercover investigation has resulted in the arrests of 20 women and men who worked there, Phoenix police said Friday.
Authorities are still searching for 17 more people -- all of whom have been indicted -- in connection with the prostitution enterprise, said Sgt. Steve Martos, a Phoenix police spokesman. The 20 people arrested so far have been charged with prostitution or other offenses, police said.
During a Wednesday search of the Phoenix temple and two church-related sites in nearby Sedona, police seized evidence showing that "male and female 'practitioners' working at the Temple were performing sexual acts in exchange for monetary 'donations,' all on the pretense of providing 'neo tantric' healing therapies," Phoenix police said.
LMT

Akron, OH

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#44
Sep 10, 2011
 
"What's unusual is that they were trying to hide behind religion or church, and under the guise of religious freedom, they were committing acts of prostitution," Martos said.
"We certainly respect First Amendment rights. However, religious freedom does not allow for criminal acts," Martos said.
Regarding the Goddess Temple's website, he said: "What they would talk about would seem to be religion. At the same time, they were implying or intimating that they were giving sex therapy."
The website says at one point: "Sex is a holy, sacred and divine healing force at the core (of) our beings. Once we embrace this force instead of deny it, we become successful, happy and powerful manifestors."
The website also features unclothed women, listed as residing in several states, under a "Goddesses" section.
The investigation focused on the alleged crimes, said acting Phoenix Police Chief Joe Yahner.
Maricopa County Attorney Bill Montgomery added in a statement: "Freedom of religion does not allow individuals to trade sex for money, no matter how the transaction is portrayed."
blah

Minneapolis, MN

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#45
Sep 10, 2011
 

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So, LMT, by that logic a neo-tantric massage for money is perfectly okay in, say, Toronto or Germany or Hungary.

Not everything is as black and white as you seem to think. I totally respect your boundaries; you, however continue to judge everyone who disagrees with you. Sad.
Dr_G

Lages, Brazil

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#46
Sep 10, 2011
 

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"Committing acts of prostitution" is not the definition, nor even close to the concept, of tantric massage. To so equate them is to demonstrate that you are not an educated (at least with respect to this topic) individual.

"Churches" practice all sorts of things, so it is no surprise that the MIGHT BE a church of prostitution. Whatever the police think they identified in Phoenix/Sedona, it will be up to the courts to sort it out. Thankfully, the US still believes in the legal principle of "innocent until proven guilty".
LMT

Hudson, OH

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#47
Sep 10, 2011
 

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blah wrote:
So, LMT, by that logic a neo-tantric massage for money is perfectly okay in, say, Toronto or Germany or Hungary.
Not everything is as black and white as you seem to think. I totally respect your boundaries; you, however continue to judge everyone who disagrees with you. Sad.
We all live in the societies and civilizations of our home. So we must adopt and conform to those societies' legal definitions of what is legal and what is illegal, OR (at least in the Western World), we can choose another home. Since my home is the United States, I will respect the laws of my country, and the ethical standards set forth for my profession.
cindy

San Diego, CA

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#48
Sep 10, 2011
 

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LMT wrote:
<quoted text>We all live in the societies and civilizations of our home. So we must adopt and conform to those societies' legal definitions of what is legal and what is illegal, OR (at least in the Western World), we can choose another home. Since my home is the United States, I will respect the laws of my country, and the ethical standards set forth for my profession.


Mr perfect you never broken a law in your life?
blah

Minneapolis, MN

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#49
Sep 10, 2011
 

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LMT wrote:
<quoted text>We all live in the societies and civilizations of our home. So we must adopt and conform to those societies' legal definitions of what is legal and what is illegal, OR (at least in the Western World), we can choose another home. Since my home is the United States, I will respect the laws of my country, and the ethical standards set forth for my profession.
It's great that you do that, I have no objection to that at all. My problem with you is that you hasten to judge anyone who has different boundaries or morals from your own. I'm really glad you're not in charge; I fear there would be no trial, no middle ground, no nothing, just straight to the gulag.

I'm glad that you've worked this stuff out for yourself. But please don't be so damn sure it's the only right way to do things. You might be very surprised if you did a little traveling away from home. Perhaps to Nevada or Rhode Island where the laws may be a little different from what you're use to.
Dr_G

Lages, Brazil

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#51
Sep 11, 2011
 

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LMT wrote:
<quoted text>We all live in the societies and civilizations of our home. So we must adopt and conform to those societies' legal definitions of what is legal and what is illegal, OR (at least in the Western World), we can choose another home. Since my home is the United States, I will respect the laws of my country, and the ethical standards set forth for my profession.
Societies and laws are not static. What is "acceptable" today may differ significantly from what was "acceptable" in the past, or will be in the future, whether from a cultural or legal perspective. At one time homosexuality was illegal and socially unacceptable in every state in the US. Living together unmarried was scandalous. Having a child outside of marriage brought great shame on the family. These and innumerable other social and/or legal standards have changed, because society itself has changed. In my opinion for the better. And change is brought about through the marketplace of IDEAS.

In a democracy we don't "choose another home" when we disagree with the laws or ethics of our current home - we create dialogue and offer a different perspective to the marketplace of ideas. As a result, we evolve as a society. One of the most remarkable areas of change over my lifetime has been society's view of human sexuality and male-female roles and relationships. Yet there remains a diversity of opinions on these and other such controversial issues (marijuana, abortion, environment, etc.).

If you offered your comments in the manner of "this is my opinion and this is why I believe the way I do" instead of calling anyone that has a different view a "corn dog" pervert, your comments would be both welcome and respected, albeit not necessarily agreed with. It is a mark of education and personal dignity to treat the opinions of others with respect.

“The Truth Can Hurt:”

Since: Jul 11

Central Florida

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#52
Sep 11, 2011
 

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First off ; I believe that IF a client ask for a Tantric /Ligham Massage ; that it is Their business if they are over 18 years of age ... WHY should anyone else be concerned if it does not involve you ?

I am certified Massage Therapist, Reflexologist, and REIKI Master Teacher as well as have my associates in Counseling ( Personal, Sexual, and Spiritual)and am ordained pastor as well.

I've done what I call "Therapeutic Touch" for over 35 years. I combine Reflexology, Acupressure, Body Rub, REIKI Healing, and Massage into one form .. using all of the aforementioned into about an hour treatment.

Prior to any treatment ; the person would sign a waiver and it explicitly explains what they are receiving and requesting.

I would have to say that over 95% of the guys WILL ask for indicate that they want the Tantric / Ligham massage as well ... being as they are over 18 years of age; I have always complied.

Being the law and societies backward and misunderstanding ways ; I NEVER charged a dime ! IF a client wished to ;t ehy could leave a "Donation" on the desk or table on their way out.

I've since more or less retired .. BUT still have three - four guys who visit on a semi regular basis for a full treatment.

NO ONE gets hurt .. gets anything that they don't want .. so WHO is getting hurt ? NO ONE !!
Paul

Birmingham, AL

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#53
Sep 12, 2011
 

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LMT wrote:
<quoted text>We all live in the societies and civilizations of our home. So we must adopt and conform to those societies' legal definitions of what is legal and what is illegal, OR (at least in the Western World), we can choose another home. Since my home is the United States, I will respect the laws of my country, and the ethical standards set forth for my profession.
And yet, you rail against undraped massage on this forum, even though the laws of some states and cities clearly permit it, when client and therapist agree.

Since: Jul 11

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#54
Sep 12, 2011
 
Dr_G wrote:
<quoted text>
Societies and laws are not static. What is "acceptable" today may differ significantly from what was "acceptable" in the past, or will be in the future, whether from a cultural or legal perspective. At one time homosexuality was illegal and socially unacceptable in every state in the US. Living together unmarried was scandalous. Having a child outside of marriage brought great shame on the family. These and innumerable other social and/or legal standards have changed, because society itself has changed. In my opinion for the better. And change is brought about through the marketplace of IDEAS.
In a democracy we don't "choose another home" when we disagree with the laws or ethics of our current home - we create dialogue and offer a different perspective to the marketplace of ideas. As a result, we evolve as a society. One of the most remarkable areas of change over my lifetime has been society's view of human sexuality and male-female roles and relationships. Yet there remains a diversity of opinions on these and other such controversial issues (marijuana, abortion, environment, etc.).
If you offered your comments in the manner of "this is my opinion and this is why I believe the way I do" instead of calling anyone that has a different view a "corn dog" pervert, your comments would be both welcome and respected, albeit not necessarily agreed with. It is a mark of education and personal dignity to treat the opinions of others with respect.
Excellent point! Completely agree.
Blaise

Somerville, NJ

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#55
Sep 27, 2011
 

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Sexuality generally overrides piety as a human need. Whom does lingam massage hurt? It induces a pleasurable physiological and psychological state rather than pain or dystopia, it doesn't violate either children or adults, it doesn't spread infection, and it doesn't result in pregnancy or lwas to abortion. It isn't associated with a drug culture or criminality. What does offend me? Rape, pedophilia, and semen-stained pews and confession booths, as well as therapists who try to covince their patients that submitting to them sexually would be beneficial. The same admonition applies to cult leaders.
Paul

Birmingham, AL

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#56
Sep 27, 2011
 

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Well put, Blaise. What two consenting adults do behind closed doors is no one else's business.
reality LMT

United States

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#57
Oct 2, 2011
 

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But when I seek psychological and physiological relief from stress and relief from strained muscles and ligaments, I use a massage therapist.
What part of a penis falls in the catagory of 'relief from strained muscles and ligaments"?
Duh, again. We are just saying, keep the 'sexual' apart from the 'therapeutic'. My massage even is a little sensual. When I was first taught back in the 80's we did the light, nerve stroke. When I went to a certified massage school in 2006, they didn't teach that. When I asked why not? They answered they thought it was too sensual.
But I had been doing it for years, and both sexes liked it. I have a tendency not to do it as much recently after some guys said, "ohhhhh, you could do that for the whole massage"....I tell them..."I'd get bored".
reality LMT

United States

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#58
Oct 2, 2011
 

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Dr_G wrote:
<quoted text>
While I agree that it would be best if sex-for-hire were legal and clearly distinct from massage in the mind of the public, the fact remains that there is no single definition of "REAL" massage. The Australian Association of Massage Therapists lists some 80 modalities of "massage", and the list is clearly incomplete when the inclusive massage practices of all cultures and societies are considered. This is my point exactly - what you define as "REAL" massage is but a small subset of the world-wide practice of massage considered legitimate within various cultural settings around the globe.
Again I repeat - the US IS NOT the definer of "massage therapy" for the entire world - and whatever the definition is, is is subject to challenge and review as society evolves.
But we are not talking about the other world, we are talking about US, in the here and now, in the good old U.S.A. where it IS illegal and UNETHICAL. If you want a happy ending, go where it is LEGAL and like LMT said, quit pestering us. Or go to the ASIAN places. Or craigslist that says "rubdowns".

We are practicing massage HERE, and puritanical or not, it is the law.
Dr_G

Lages, Brazil

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#59
Oct 3, 2011
 

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reality LMT wrote:
<quoted text>
But we are not talking about the other world, we are talking about US, in the here and now, in the good old U.S.A. where it IS illegal and UNETHICAL. If you want a happy ending, go where it is LEGAL and like LMT said, quit pestering us. Or go to the ASIAN places. Or craigslist that says "rubdowns".
We are practicing massage HERE, and puritanical or not, it is the law.
I started this topic to stimulate dialogue. Your comments and opinions are as welcome as those of any other participant. A dialogue is an exchange of ideas. Mature participants in a dialogue respect each other and consider the various opinions presented.

Let me point out, however, that people from all over the world participate here. For instance, I'm in Brazil. What you consider unethical is not necessarily so considered elsewhere. What is illegal in your state, or the US, is not necessarily illegal in other locations.

Tantric massage is not oriented at "happy endings", and in fact should not achieve one, particularly for men. If you think that is what it is, perhaps you should better educate yourself. Neither is it male-only massage. Tantric massage can be for women (yoni) or men (lingam). Properly performed it can provide pleasure and a sense of harmony and integration of the whole self. The best practicioners of the art are generally highly educated professionals who have often studied tantric practices in foreign countries. Their practice often is oriented to couples, and to training in sensual touch.

The issue is whether it SHOULD be legal, and whether it should be considered a LEGITIMATE massage modality. With respect to those questions, you have apparently expressed your opinion, however perhaps a less-than-informed one. In any regard, I respect your point of view.
to sensitive

United States

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#60
Oct 3, 2011
 

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Dr_G wrote:
<quoted text>I started this topic to stimulate dialogue. Your comments and opinions are as welcome as those of any other participant. A dialogue is an exchange of ideas. Mature participants in a dialogue respect each other and consider the various opinions presented.

Let me point out, however, that people from all over the world participate here. For instance, I'm in Brazil. What you consider unethical is not necessarily so considered elsewhere. What is illegal in your state, or the US, is not necessarily illegal in other locations.

Tantric massage is not oriented at "happy endings", and in fact should not achieve one, particularly for men. If you think that is what it is, perhaps you should better educate yourself. Neither is it male-only massage. Tantric massage can be for women (yoni) or men (lingam). Properly performed it can provide pleasure and a sense of harmony and integration of the whole self. The best practicioners of the art are generally highly educated professionals who have often studied tantric practices in foreign countries. Their practice often is oriented to couples, and to training in sensual touch.

The issue is whether it SHOULD be legal, and whether it should be considered a LEGITIMATE massage modality. With respect to those questions, you have apparently expressed your opinion, however perhaps a less-than-informed one. In any regard, I respect your point of view.
Very well stated DR. G
I have been a global traveller for many years. I have learned that the customs and practices differ greatly across the world. Respecting each others customs is important, but recognizing that there are indeed differences is equally important. This thread is open to the world, not a few US citizens.

You always have the right to refuse a client, or a clients request. If someone requests something of you (legal, illegal or just uncomfortable) you have the right to say no.

But please do not assume the remainder of the world follows the same cultural standards.

The US does not set the worlds standard, massage
Has been around a very long time. We are just
New to the art/science.

Just my opinion.

Since: Oct 10

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#61
Oct 3, 2011
 

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to sensitive wrote:
<quoted text>
Very well stated DR. G
I have been a global traveller for many years. I have learned that the customs and practices differ greatly across the world. Respecting each others customs is important, but recognizing that there are indeed differences is equally important. This thread is open to the world, not a few US citizens.
You always have the right to refuse a client, or a clients request. If someone requests something of you (legal, illegal or just uncomfortable) you have the right to say no.
But please do not assume the remainder of the world follows the same cultural standards.
The US does not set the worlds standard, massage
Has been around a very long time. We are just
New to the art/science.
Just my opinion.
Massage is not that new the the USA, being regulated is fairly new.

Many girls were lured to the USA in the early part of the 1900's with the promise of schooling and a new life. Once here, the poor girls were taught the basics of massage and forced to work as prostitutes to pay off their "schooling". That is why massage is linked to prostitution, and also why regulations came to be.

The massage industry has tried since the 1980's to be recognized as a legitimate alternative health practice. Yes, we have the right to refuse requests, but feel that we shouldn't even be getting "these" requests in the first place.

This PSA was brought to you by the letters M and T, and the number 10.

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