Boy Scouts of America close door on D...

Boy Scouts of America close door on DC physicals

There are 73 comments on the www.chiroeco.com story from May 8, 2009, titled Boy Scouts of America close door on DC physicals. In it, www.chiroeco.com reports that:

May 8, 2009 - The Boy Scouts of America recently implemented a policy that does not allow doctors of chiropractic to provide the mandatory BSA physical to Boy Scouts.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at www.chiroeco.com.

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Spineman

Springfield, PA

#1 Aug 11, 2009
As an Eagle Scout and also father of a cub scout, I find this an appalling action by the BSA. There is no one better suited for this service than a trained chiropractic professional!
Diggs

United States

#2 Aug 11, 2009
Spineman, good post

How sad is it, that something like this happens. Chiropractors take more hours in diff diagnosis that their counter parts MD/DO. The MD/DO have residency, while the DC will have internship in student clinics, then out in the real world practicing and seeing all types of conditions. Yes, a DC can provide as good of a physical examination as any MD/DO.

This just goes to show you, that a new witch hunt has started against the Chiropractic profession again.

I would like to see exactly why they BSA, went in this direction? Maybe the AMA?
tom

Minneapolis, MN

#3 Aug 12, 2009
diggs posts:
"This just goes to show you, that a new witch hunt has started against the Chiropractic profession again."

YES- this is true, however it hasn't just started------it is, and has been ongoing since the 1960s,...... only now, in a much more insidious, sinister, covert form.

If you are not familiar with the Wilk vs AMA decsion( http://www.chiro.org/Wilk/ )........The AMA, et al. was exposed and found guilty for conspiracy against chiropractic.(The suit claimed that the defendants had participated for years in an illegal conspiracy to destroy chiropractic. On August 24, 1987, after endless wrangling in the courts, U.S. District Court judge Susan Getzendanner ruled that the AMA and its officials were guilty, as charged, of attempting to eliminate the chiropractic profession.

In 1987 (1), following 11 years of legal action, a federal appellate court judge ruled that the AMA had engaged in a “lengthy, systematic, successful and unlawful boycott” designed to restrict cooperation between MDs and chiropractors in order to eliminate the profession of chiropractic as a competitor in the United States health care system.")

As you can see- they dragged this out for 11 years!!

Being found guilty of their sinister agenda has NOT changed their objectives/goals. It only changed the way they go about pursuing it. The ruling forced them to change their methods. Now they are recruiting innocent, unsuspecting, vulnerable, laypeople to do their dirty work.

THAT is truly sinister -----> Nothing new there HUH? They are relentless, AND have the fund$$.

DO NOT think for a minute that a few ladies(victims of AMA propaganda) in CT are paying for all those billboards!------- It is being paid for by AMA bullies laundered $$......(Madoff ponsei style).... and is predictably increasing in intensity with political speculations on the new "face" of healthcare distribution/reimbursement.

These arrogant, well-funded, financially-connected bullies with huge egos, will not share(even if the evidence indicates) their turf under ANY circumstances, even if it is for the benefit of the patient.
Diggs

United States

#4 Aug 12, 2009
Great post Tom, thanks for the correction.

So, what is the future going to be for us? I am a PMA type of person (Positive Mental Attitude). But with this BSA/BCBS Fed Employee ins delisting DC's as non physicians/and a host of other attacks against the profession, I am for myself an other, VERY concerned about the future. It will have to come down to the profession, fighting back LEGALLY in the courtrooms accross this nation.

Any jury in the world would be able to see the obvious.

My two cents
Wisdom

Brooklyn, NY

#5 Aug 13, 2009
Lets stop the nonsense.

The clinical experience for chiropractors is incredibly pathetic.

The entire clinical experience before a chiropractor graduates from chiropractic school consists of "examining" about 20 or so people with neck and back discomfort.

These chiropractors are NOT qualified, by any stretch of the imagination, to examine and diagnose Boy Scouts or any other child, for that matter.

Reading about disease is not a substitute for examining and diagnosing and treating real patients with real illnesses. No matter how these chiropractor spin it.

Contrast their clinical experience with medical doctors who examine, diagnose and treat thousands of patients as part of their clinical experience.

Thank goodness, these Boy Scouts are wising up.
concerned scout parent

Donalsonville, GA

#6 Aug 13, 2009
Cardiac disease, primarily undiagnosed abnormalities of cardiac valves, is a leading cause of sudden death in young athletes. Are chiropractors sufficiently trained in recognizing valvular abnormalities by either auscultation or by patient history?
nwtk2007

Lewisville, TX

#7 Aug 13, 2009
Yes they are. They learn the same way other doctors do and it ain't just 20 patients Wisdump. Maybe for you when you failed out but not for most of us.

And obviously most MD's are not that well trained either if you want to look at the stats. On TV this morning an MD expert for the station and another doctor were discussing how MD's fail to diagnose 40% of strokes that are in the process of happening. They said it was the patient's fault and were promoting a book for patients about how not to be misdiagnosed.

I had to laugh. Yes, blame the patients on your mistakes boys.

Your question should be "are ANY doctors sufficiently trained to recognize valvular and vascular abnormalities?"
Wisdom

Brooklyn, NY

#8 Aug 15, 2009
nwtk must be a chiropractor. Because only a chiropractor would say that MDs are "not qualified". And only a chiropractor would bash medicine like you do.

Very funny. Very typical.

"concerned", you are correct. Chiropractors are not qualified to examine or diagnose any cardiac condition. How could they be? They never examine or diagnose any patients with cardiac disease. Indeed, their whole "experience" with diagnosing heart problems is listening to a few "tape recordings" while in chiropractic school. And that is pathetic and that is dangerous.

Take your Boy Scout to a board certified physician for a physical evaluation.

Since: Jul 07

Edmonton, Alberta, Canada

#9 Aug 15, 2009
And exactly which board should that physician be certified by, whizdump?

Again you are showing your lack of any CURRENT experience with chiropractic education with your pathetic comments.
nwtk2007

Lewisville, TX

#10 Aug 15, 2009
So "not that well trained" is the same as "not qualified"? Are you just too stupid Wisdump?

Better yet, take him to a chiro first and then to the certified physician (or visa versa) and see if there is any difference.

You might just be surprised.
Wisdom

Brooklyn, NY

#11 Aug 15, 2009
It appears that you chiropractors enjoy name calling. More evidence of your "professionalism".

This should be fun. Please explain to all of us where it is that you chiropractors became "experts" in examining and diagnosing cardiac conditions.

The typical board certified internist/family physician has examined thousands of patients with cardiac conditions. They have done a rotation in cardiac medicine.

Chiropractors, on the other hand, get to see approx. 20 or so patients in their "student" clinics.

It really is such a joke that you chiropractors claim to be experts in diagnosing/examining patients with heart problems.

But, I'll bite, where exactly did you get your cardiac expertise? And remember, I know many chiropractors who graduated from such chiropractic schools as Sherman, Logan, Life, National and Palmer. I'll be sure to check your claims.
Concerned Scout Parent

Tampa, FL

#12 Aug 15, 2009
A football player at our local High School died last year....said to have been due to Hypertrophic Cardiomyopathy. I looked this up on WebMD and it appears that there are several characteristic signs and symptoms. Are Chiropractors trained to suspect this during their sports examinations? Will they treat this with an adjustment? What does this have to do with subluxations?
nwtk2007

Lewisville, TX

#13 Aug 15, 2009
Was his pre-atheletic physical performed by a chiropractor?
tom

Minneapolis, MN

#14 Aug 16, 2009
Concerned posts:
>>"Cardiac disease, primarily undiagnosed abnormalities of cardiac valves, is a leading
cause of sudden death in young athletes. Are chiropractors sufficiently trained in
recognizing valvular abnormalities by either auscultation or by patient history? "<<

First of all, Thank-you for your question----and I can appreciate your concern. Auscultation is NOT a particularly difficult skill.......Albeit it is skilled.....(.Many, DCs, NPs PAs, RNs, are trained in this skill----- to ascertain heart sounds thast are normal, vs those that warrant further attention/tests/referral.

Concerned additionally posts:

>>"A football player at our local High School died last year....said to have been due to
Hypertrophic Cardiomyopathy."<<

Indeed, it is hard, and especially sad when a young person passes.

>>"I looked this up on WebMD and it appears that there are several characteristic signs and
symptoms. "<<

I am not sure how you define "characterisic", but indeed, in many cases, the flags go up
in the medical history portion of the exam. IMO- the history and consultation is THE most
important part of an exam.

Per your post: Did this teen have any symptoms prior to the final incident?---- during training? Previous sport activity? or just ADLs? Did the coach observe any distress during training? Who did his PE exam? What tests were done?.........Why?.........

CONCERNED: >>"Are Chiropractors trained to suspect this during their sports examinations?"<<

YES!! Please allow me to direct you to some important information. There are many DCs
(chiropractors) that specialize, and have obtained advanced training/certification in the
sports. They are eminently qualified to do sports physicals, and IMO, generally better qualified than most GP, NP, or PA in a sports directed physical. I have not been privy to any background information for this BSA decision, however the global dismissal of an entire profession seems a bit suspicious/political. Can you direct me to any of this info?

SEE Here:
http://www.acbsp.com/
http://www.acbsp.com/Position%20Paper%20-%20P...

PLUS- you may be interested to know the inclusion of DCs(chiropractic) in the World games, Olympics, Tour d'France, NFL, NHL, MLB,......... etc. If you would like more info on this, I will be happy/willing, to post this for you.

Concerned: >>"Will they treat this with an adjustment? What does this have to do with subluxations?"<<

I believe the question/topic here is the "physical exam"?.....

I have directed my post to the original topic---as it should be(trolls post to re-direct and obfuscate).

I hope that this information is helpful to you.

Thank-you for the opportunity to exchange.

I look forward to your reply, and any assistance I can give, to help answer your questions/concerns.

Kelly

Canada

#15 Aug 16, 2009
Wisdom, I have been following your posts for some time now.

I taught Anatomy and Physiology for 7 years at one of the more "esteemed" chiropractic colleges in the U.S. before landing my current job at University here in Canada.

Wisdom, while you can be downright blatant in your analysis of the "chiropractic enterprise" as you call it, you are right on, and, as a matter of fact, you are the only person I have ever come across knowledgeable of chiropractic and willing to call it as it is.

I could go on and on about just how illogical and arbitrary chiropractic techniques and treatments are. Wisdom, I saw the cult behavior first hand.

Thank you for all your posts Wisdom. You can sleep well at night.

I saw that some of the "chiropractors" who post here have resorted to calling you awful names ("Nazi" and "child molester").
It was very common to see chiropractic students and chiropractors themselves resort to that kind of name calling when I was at the chiropractic college. It disgusted me then and it disgusts me now.

Keep up the good fight Wisdom. More people need to hear the truth.

I might add that Wisdom is entirely correct. The clinical requirements needed before a chiropractor graduated from the college I taught at, was 250 "adjustments of other "healthy" students and 100 adjustments done on patients seen at the student clinic, whether on campus or at the downtown clinic.

It strains credulilty that these chiropractors would make a comparison between their clinical competency and those of medical doctors, who, as Wisdom noted, see thousands of patients as part of their clinical training.

To say that chiropractors are qualified to examine or diagnose heart problems is as far fetched as one can imagine. To say that they are qualified to diagnose anything other than some neck and back injuries is also far fetched.
tom

Minneapolis, MN

#16 Aug 17, 2009
Kelly- I am compelled to call you out:

1- Your post reads amazingly similar in wording and syntac as a regular who posts at Wizzy's chiroblab site.

2- that poster(hard to tell, most there post under 5-6 different tags- to give the false impression of many, when in actuality, it is only a few) was never a DC school instructor.

3- Your declarations on clinical requirements is woefully erroneous...... Another indication that your post is intentionally ficticious and with purpose to mislead.

4- Lack of any links to support your declarations....... VERY un-academic.

5- Unsupported inflammatory language and accusations that are suspiciously parroted.

In light of the above- I must discount your post as being bogus and without merit.
nwtk2007

Dallas, TX

#17 Aug 17, 2009
Obviously a scam comment. They fight what they see as lies and corruption with lies and corruption.

The truth doen't matter to them. The end justifies the means.

Thus we don't confuse Wisdump and his boys with the truth.
Future

United States

#18 Aug 17, 2009
To say that only a MD/DO is capable of detecting abnormal heart sounds upon auscultation or that only they can perform a proper basic cardiac examination, is absurd. Physician assistants, Nurse Practitioners, Naturopathic Physicians, and Chiropractic Physicians can all do the same thing.
The diff comes from what type of physician. Say, a Cardiologist, then yes they are far more capable than anyone else.

Chiropractic Physicians do have the proper training, the first two years are basically mirrored the same as an Osteopathic Physician.

I agree with the prior posts, sure sounds like another one of wisdoms crew. These people get paid to post garbage and fraud.

Maybe the AMA had something to do with the recent ruling on this matter. How sad is that. The Federal DOT also feels that Chiropractors are more than capable, as they allow them to perform DOT physical examinations on CDL drivers.

Boy wisdom, you are up to no good as always, did Botnick pay you and your buddies for the posts. How is Barrett, I see he has toned down lately, maybe because of the ruling against him and the angry acne doctor.
L Baines

AOL

#19 Sep 10, 2009
Wisdom wrote:
Lets stop the nonsense.
The clinical experience for chiropractors is incredibly pathetic.
The entire clinical experience before a chiropractor graduates from chiropractic school consists of "examining" about 20 or so people with neck and back discomfort.
These chiropractors are NOT qualified, by any stretch of the imagination, to examine and diagnose Boy Scouts or any other child, for that matter.
Reading about disease is not a substitute for examining and diagnosing and treating real patients with real illnesses. No matter how these chiropractor spin it.
Contrast their clinical experience with medical doctors who examine, diagnose and treat thousands of patients as part of their clinical experience.
Thank goodness, these Boy Scouts are wising up.
Hey guys, what do you think????!! Take a good look at this link. Coincidence that you never see WiseDump and Barrett at the same place at the same time? I don't think so!!
http://www.canlyme.com/quackwatch.html
Wisdom

Brooklyn, NY

#20 Sep 10, 2009
"chirotalk" the worlds finest skeptical chiropractic web site.

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