'I married a gay man' - It took a woman years to figure out her picture-perfect marriage was a sham

[Neese]

gemelk wrote:

I am amazed and proud of the woman that wrote the article. She still has pain, some self doubt, but she has taken a huge negative in her life, and turned it into something good and powerful.
She could have chosen to be angry, hateful and vengeful, but she CHOSE to help others by sharing her pain. She CHOSE to take that pain and be a voice for ending the cycle of pain that causes homosexuals to be hated, thus ending up in marriages like hers. She chose to find a way to use her anger to end the hatred and persecution of homosexuals.
That gentle readers, is true STRENGTH, that is real COURAGE. That is the power of the human spirit, to rise above adversity to a better place of existence.
Eric

I always love your posts....you have a nice way with words.:)

[Dasein9]

gemelk wrote:

<quoted text>
People do not have a "right" to this information, they simply do not, never had it and never will.
What drives this though, is pure, simple, human curiousity. It creates a false "need" to know.
Face it - for most people, homosexuality is something they can't understand or comprehend. We're different and that difference makes us the object of attention and curiousity.
I do think though, that we DO have an OBLIGATION to educate and inform. Why? Because in so doing, we cease being the oddity, because 'they' get to know 'us'. They start to observe in their own experience, that we are really, just like them.
Thus, and we have history to prove this, we slowly, surely (even if it does feel like the flow of molasses in a Maine winter), progress from people demanding to know, to simply not caring - at least beyond the usual human compulsion for salacious gossip. It's interesting, even some of the Temples in Egypt have gossip on them. Rome is filled with ancient gossip.
Das, the real question is what sick portion of the human psyche fuels "Entertainment Tonight", "The National Enquirer" and "Jerry Springer"!
Humankind has this - obsession - an obsessive curiousity to know things that are 'different', and we just happen to qualify. It's all a little disturbed, but there it is. Best explanation I can give, even if it's a trifle unsatisfying.
Eric

I see what you mean. And especially in cases like mine, which are even odder to most than homosexuality, it's important to educate and inform. It's my hope that these efforts result in greater safety, at least.

But it's also demanding and tiring to have to do this so much. And more than a little demeaning as well.

[Gay Mom]

Neese wrote:

<quoted text>
People should have a right to privacy, and come out if and when they choose. It seems like the gay community is prevalent in outing their own though. That is pretty sad.

I won't attribute immoral or unreasonable acts of heterosexuals to the "heterosexual community" if you refrain from lumping US all together. Deal???

[gemelk]

Dasein9 wrote:

<quoted text>
I see what you mean. And especially in cases like mine, which are even odder to most than homosexuality, it's important to educate and inform. It's my hope that these efforts result in greater safety, at least.
But it's also demanding and tiring to have to do this so much. And more than a little demeaning as well.

Yes, I see your point as well, I mean, after the 1,423rd time of telling your story and why it's important, etc., etc., etc.- ad infinitum - it does become a trifle tedious (at best).

Then there is the constant battle to re-establish your credentials (speaking of workplace issues but it applies all over), just to maintain your space!

Just getting equal cred takes extra effort to be accorded the respect, recognition, etc., and to shine, we have to be superhuman. <sigh> All this while smiling and complimenting heteros on their mediocrity. Just when you've finally established your space and your peers finally accept you and realize just how hard you've had to work to get even with them, someone new comes along and you start it all over again.

Yes, WE - are extraordinary creatures. We take the beatings and the hate and yet we still strive and fight on and we manage some semblance of "normal", some sense of balance, and are proud of our lives.

Mere hetero mortals, could never weather this storm as well.

Cheers Das!

Eric

[Dasein9]

gemelk wrote:

<quoted text>
Yes, I see your point as well, I mean, after the 1,423rd time of telling your story and why it's important, etc., etc., etc.- ad infinitum - it does become a trifle tedious (at best).
Then there is the constant battle to re-establish your credentials (speaking of workplace issues but it applies all over), just to maintain your space!
Just getting equal cred takes extra effort to be accorded the respect, recognition, etc., and to shine, we have to be superhuman. <sigh> All this while smiling and complimenting heteros on their mediocrity. Just when you've finally established your space and your peers finally accept you and realize just how hard you've had to work to get even with them, someone new comes along and you start it all over again.
Yes, WE - are extraordinary creatures. We take the beatings and the hate and yet we still strive and fight on and we manage some semblance of "normal", some sense of balance, and are proud of our lives.
Mere hetero mortals, could never weather this storm as well.
Cheers Das!
Eric

Thanks, Eric. I needed the pep talk. Went to the dentist today, and on top of the shot and the drilling, she always makes me give her a gender studies lesson. Let's just say that as a dentist, she's ... "fulfilling her potential to the maximum" and is not the swiftest of students.

[Neese]

Gay Mom wrote:

<quoted text>
I won't attribute immoral or unreasonable acts of heterosexuals to the "heterosexual community" if you refrain from lumping US all together. Deal???

I didn't mean to offend. Have you been to any of the online tabloid forums that are run by gay people? Perez Hilton? Dlisted? It isn't nice sometimes... they pressure celebrities into coming out. That wasn't a stereotyped answer, it was the truth. Besides, if you didn't buy into the stereotypes, you would be suing Topix for having a gay forum. ;)

http://www.gaywired.com/article.cfm...

[Dasein9]

*sigh*

They do love to tell us what we think, feel, and believe, don't they?

[Neese]

Dasein9 wrote:

*sigh*
They do love to tell us what we think, feel, and believe, don't they?

"They" Daesin? Pot...meet kettle. Why is it that the gay forum in general, is always so touchy? If you don't get acknowlegded, you are mad, if someone does acknowledge you...still mad.

There shouldn't be a gay forum in the first place. I agree...you are people, not an exhibit. I'm straight, and as far as I know, there is no straight forum.

Gemelk is one of the few people in this forum who is always nice. Actually, I saw his name and popped in thinking that this might be a decent place to talk tonight. Sorry for the interuption...no disrespect intended.

[Houyhnhnm]

Neese wrote:

<quoted text>
People should have a right to privacy, and come out if and when they choose. It seems like the gay community is prevalent in outing their own though. That is pretty sad.

Agreed, mostly. While it is easy to understand the rewards of being yourself, no one can truly understand each personal journey.

That said, I fully support outing hypocrites who insert their internal homophobia into our legal system and do their best to hurt others.

As you say, a right to privacy, meaning keep it private. When they bring it public, they've made the wrong choice. In that sense, I sure don't consider any hypocrite to be "one of our own."

[Houyhnhnm]

Sorry, I think I should clarify that first statement -- I think it is easy to understand the rewards of being yourself, once you've made the journey, but it's really difficult to see that before or in the middle of it. Furthermore, that journey is very different for each person.

[Gay Mom]

Neese wrote:

<quoted text>
"They" Daesin? Pot...meet kettle. Why is it that the gay forum in general, is always so touchy? If you don't get acknowlegded, you are mad, if someone does acknowledge you...still mad.
There shouldn't be a gay forum in the first place. I agree...you are people, not an exhibit. I'm straight, and as far as I know, there is no straight forum.
Gemelk is one of the few people in this forum who is always nice. Actually, I saw his name and popped in thinking that this might be a decent place to talk tonight. Sorry for the interuption...no disrespect intended.

Since we are a minority class of people, with many discriminatory issues to fight, it would be great to have a forum where where we could discuss the news and events that effect us. Instead, we end up defending ourselves to trolls who are only here because they a) hate homosexuals or b)think they can push their brand of religion on us. Neither is appreciated, nor adds anything but negatives to our discussions.

[Dyssonance]

WHen in a normative society, saying that there shouldn't need to be a particular forum for groups that are not normative is akin to saying that they are not valued enough. IT is a form, in and of itself, of conformity.

A diverse society, even one with strong normative systems, should embrace the recognition of non-normative elements in order to capitalize on the creative spirit that generally lies almost exclusively within them (as a whole, not as single elements).

This creates a growth cycle that perpetuates itself, whereas conformity tends to stagnate a particular society and lead to its demise.

Normative patterns change -- it is the responsibility of normative agencies (such as religion and social courtesies) to resist such things ina social system, while it is the responsibility of non-normative forces to combat that.

Growth and adaptation of a social group are dependent on these elements -- fuel and fire.

[ScottyMatic]

Dasein9 wrote:

<quoted text>
Good post, Scotty. I've picked out this bit to talk about. The whole demand to know is what's starting to bug me. Who does the public think it is, to demand such information? Yes, to be out is a good thing in my life. But that doesn't mean it is for everyone.
And this demand to know is everywhere, and covers a whole lot of things. Babies in my neighbourhood are always dressed in pink or blue. Always. Why? Because the public has the right to know whether the baby's a boy or a girl. Why? Why does the public have that right?
People who are transgender are accused of deception. For some reason, the public seems to think it has a right to know what shape everyone's genitalia are, and this information is to be broadcast by means of clothing choice and mannerisms 24/7.
Sexual orientation, sexual behaviour... everyone seems to believe not only they have a right to this information, but that we have an obligation to educate them, to confess our own experiences about this stuff for the sake of their education. For free, of course.
Since when did coming out mean we agreed to be lab animals?

VERY good point. Unfortunately, the Constitution is seriously under attack, and in many ways, has already been suspended and usurped. There is NO right to privacy in america anymore. This benefits heterosexuals who go with the flow, because it makes them feel that they are "just as normal as everyone else." But it's not a level playing field if you're LGBT in a society that is poised to hurl abuse at anyone identifying as LGBT. I am a very private person by nature. I can count on one hand the number of people in the last five years who've seen the inside of my house.

But because heterosexual culture now involves making all of the most private details of your life part of the public domain, I am further discriminated against for not volunteering all that information.

This is the surviellance society. Remember, absolute security means zero privacy. The prolific Libertarian author Ayn Rand wrote: "Civilization is the progress toward a society of privacy...the process of setting man free from men." However, we've been going the wrong way on that for a couple of decades now. Now, all are beholden to society, in fear that if we don't blindly follow the onerous directives of officials, we will simply be "dissapeared" in the middle of the night.

But I have confidence that the pendulum has reached the end of it's arc, and must inevitably swing back the other way. It always has.

[Dyssonance]

and always will.

thus the ebb and flow of history.

[ScottyMatic]

Dyssonance wrote:

WHen in a normative society, saying that there shouldn't need to be a particular forum for groups that are not normative is akin to saying that they are not valued enough. IT is a form, in and of itself, of conformity.
A diverse society, even one with strong normative systems, should embrace the recognition of non-normative elements in order to capitalize on the creative spirit that generally lies almost exclusively within them (as a whole, not as single elements).
This creates a growth cycle that perpetuates itself, whereas conformity tends to stagnate a particular society and lead to its demise.
Normative patterns change -- it is the responsibility of normative agencies (such as religion and social courtesies) to resist such things ina social system, while it is the responsibility of non-normative forces to combat that.
Growth and adaptation of a social group are dependent on these elements -- fuel and fire.

I agree with you analysis. I'm obviously not one for being overly "politically correct," but I think it's important for certain words to be chosen judiciously and with prudence.

It is the civic duty of non-normative categories, when confronted by antagonistic stalwart attitudes of religious and social forces, to enlighten and educate, to press for social change, and encourage society's comfort with such change. You can call that "combat," and it certainly feels like it. But I'm from the Gandhi school of change. Resist evil, do not cooperate with evil, but never meet evil with evil, for then, evil still wins the day.

I want society to stop killing LGBT people just because they're different. But I'll never kill anyone to achieve that goal. I stand my ground. I advance when I can. I retreat when I must, but I always face forward, hand-in-hand with all those who are willing to commit their very lives to the cause of peace.

Decent, innocent people have nothing to fear from me.

[Neese]

Gay Mom wrote:

<quoted text>
Since we are a minority class of people, with many discriminatory issues to fight, it would be great to have a forum where where we could discuss the news and events that effect us. Instead, we end up defending ourselves to trolls who are only here because they a) hate homosexuals or b)think they can push their brand of religion on us. Neither is appreciated, nor adds anything but negatives to our discussions.

Perhaps, but I wasn't promoting either.

[Neese]

Dyssonance wrote:

WHen in a normative society, saying that there shouldn't need to be a particular forum for groups that are not normative is akin to saying that they are not valued enough. IT is a form, in and of itself, of conformity.
A diverse society, even one with strong normative systems, should embrace the recognition of non-normative elements in order to capitalize on the creative spirit that generally lies almost exclusively within them (as a whole, not as single elements).
This creates a growth cycle that perpetuates itself, whereas conformity tends to stagnate a particular society and lead to its demise.
Normative patterns change -- it is the responsibility of normative agencies (such as religion and social courtesies) to resist such things ina social system, while it is the responsibility of non-normative forces to combat that.
Growth and adaptation of a social group are dependent on these elements -- fuel and fire.

Thank you for proving my point. No matter what happens, the gay community will criticize. Unfortunately, with behavior like that, you will never get any support. I was never prejudiced against gay people, but after spending some time in the gay forum here, my overall impression is bitchiness. If I came in here falsely as gay, then I would get support. If not, gay people act prejudiced against the straight people. The gay lifestyle has been out in the open long enough. No one needs to be "educated" anymore. Know what I think? Some people just like the attention, and like to play the victim. I am grateful for the experience, because I understand how it works now. Although you can all live your life as you please, politically, I would never support your lifestyle because so many people here have treated me poorly. I can't support people who are one issue voters.

[Neese]

"Normative"? LOL! If I came in here with that word, the *hit would have hit the fan.

[gemelk]

Neese wrote:

<quoted text>
Thank you for proving my point. No matter what happens, the gay community will criticize. Unfortunately, with behavior like that, you will never get any support. I was never prejudiced against gay people, but after spending some time in the gay forum here, my overall impression is bitchiness. If I came in here falsely as gay, then I would get support. If not, gay people act prejudiced against the straight people. The gay lifestyle has been out in the open long enough. No one needs to be "educated" anymore. Know what I think? Some people just like the attention, and like to play the victim. I am grateful for the experience, because I understand how it works now. Although you can all live your life as you please, politically, I would never support your lifestyle because so many people here have treated me poorly. I can't support people who are one issue voters.

You'll find, if you actually asked, that we are not so monodimensional.

If you see a touch of "bitchiness" here, it's because we are under constant siege. Lest you think you have nothing to do with that, I beg to differ, your choice of words is at best, insidious anti-gay hostility, butressed by the fact that you feel the need in your third sentence to deny it.

We are also not so monodimensional as to not be able to see an argument from many points of view and to concede those points where necessary. That does not mean we should fight for our rights and equality with any less passion or vehemence. We take a great deal of abuse on a routine basis, something you know nothing about and I doubt, you could tolerate as well as we do.

You would do well to consider that (generally) as a straight person, you've never been beaten, punched, kicked, spat on, etc., simply becauseo of who you are. We live that. We live that every day.

So, do not pretend at first to be our friend and to attempt to placate me and others with soothing kind words, which in the end, are as hollow as you, and as bereft of as much humanity.

What you further fail to recognize or acknowledge, is that we have come very far, and we've done that only because we have friends and allies who happen to be STRAIGHT. Without them, we could not have acheived ANYTHING. We have acheived much and we owe our STRAIGHT friends and allies a huge debt for seeing us as human beings who are very ill treated and much abused.

So before you castigate us as "bitchy", perhaps you should actually get to know us, and perhaps you should check your own agenda at the door.

Eric

[Neese]

gemelk wrote:

<quoted text>
You'll find, if you actually asked, that we are not so monodimensional.
If you see a touch of "bitchiness" here, it's because we are under constant siege. Lest you think you have nothing to do with that, I beg to differ, your choice of words is at best, insidious anti-gay hostility, butressed by the fact that you feel the need in your third sentence to deny it.
We are also not so monodimensional as to not be able to see an argument from many points of view and to concede those points where necessary. That does not mean we should fight for our rights and equality with any less passion or vehemence. We take a great deal of abuse on a routine basis, something you know nothing about and I doubt, you could tolerate as well as we do.
You would do well to consider that (generally) as a straight person, you've never been beaten, punched, kicked, spat on, etc., simply becauseo of who you are. We live that. We live that every day.
So, do not pretend at first to be our friend and to attempt to placate me and others with soothing kind words, which in the end, are as hollow as you, and as bereft of as much humanity.
What you further fail to recognize or acknowledge, is that we have come very far, and we've done that only because we have friends and allies who happen to be STRAIGHT. Without them, we could not have acheived ANYTHING. We have acheived much and we owe our STRAIGHT friends and allies a huge debt for seeing us as human beings who are very ill treated and much abused.
So before you castigate us as "bitchy", perhaps you should actually get to know us, and perhaps you should check your own agenda at the door.
Eric

Actually, I have tried to get to know several of you. I am the idiot who thought you were so handsome a while back. Sorry that your life is so miserable. I will take you off of my nice list now.

P.S. If "I" really wanted to be a *itch, I could post the other website that I found you on . You didn't sound quite so pure or dignified there. ;) But, I won't.