Should Billy Graham's legacy be rescued?

Feb 13, 2013 | Posted by: roboblogger | Full story: Q-Notes

President Barack Obama with Rev. Billy Graham at his house in Montreat, N.C., April 25, 2010.

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barry

Rainsville, AL

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#1201
May 10, 2013
 
Bob of Quantum-Faith wrote:
<quoted text>
Oh, goodness-- you are REACHING here....!
Seriously, are you brain-damaged?
You'd pretty much have to be, to stretch your ugly bible in this way...!
Wow...
obviously you didn't have an answer.
barry

Rainsville, AL

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#1202
May 10, 2013
 
Bob of Quantum-Faith wrote:
<quoted text>
Brain damage. There is no getting around this: you have religious brain damage.
So severe, you cannot learn anything.
Pathetic.
come on bob admit it, you missed me.
barry

Rainsville, AL

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#1203
May 10, 2013
 
Very Cynical Person wrote:
<quoted text>Due to such an asinine comment.
sensitive nerves.
Patriot

Nashville, TN

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#1204
May 10, 2013
 
Barry I was surfing the threads and seen where you were posting, I just thought I would say Hey
fatbacks x

United States

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#1205
May 10, 2013
 
WHAT LEGACY? Save bush from acholism? Damage was already done. Act was politicle to get the deranged born agains to drive the country deeper in the hole.
fatbacks x

United States

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#1206
May 10, 2013
 
Sorry! left the l out of alcholism. You shoe p---ers can go ahead and beat thet mistake to death.

Since: Mar 11

Lexington, KY

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#1207
May 10, 2013
 
He vowed a burnt offering and it clearly says he kept his vow. Nothing else needs to be said. Oh and also making a girl stay a virgin was against Jewish law and there is not one documented example of virgin girls working at the all man club temple.
barry wrote:
<quoted text>fine, but that doesn't show that she was literally burnt.
1st of all a female anything was not to be offered as a burnt offering. it was contrary to the law. his offering would have been meaningless and rejected by God.[Lev. 22]
2nd of all he had options which would fulfill his vow. she could be redeeemed [$] and set aside as holy.[Lev. 27]
as "holy" she would be restricted from all work and would live a separated life as a virgin.
the context of the story would indicate that that is probably what happened.
3rdly jewish tradition celebrated her for four days every year.

hardly the sad story that you are trying to portray.

"And it came to pass at the end of two months, that she returned unto her father, who did with her [according] to his vow which he had vowed: and she knew no man." nowhere does it say that he broke jewish law and burned his daughter. but it does say that that the vow was completed and she never new a man.

Since: Mar 11

Lexington, KY

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#1208
May 10, 2013
 
He was Jesus of Nazareth barely not Jesus of Japhia. Nazareth didn't even exist during his lifetime. All your hand ringing and claims that cities randomly changed names back in the ancient world makes no sense and is laughable.

Worse for your claim to work would be saying Jesus was from the same city as Josephus which is insane because if they were from the same city he would have certainly mentioned that fact.

Instead he never mentions Jesus or Nazareth, how do you explain Josephus missing an entire city when it was his job to map out and document the area?
barry wrote:
<quoted text>Givemeliberty wrote:
Bible fan fiction is fun eh? Listen barely sorry to burst your apologetic fan fiction but uhh see we have maps and documentation of Japhia from centuries before Jesus was said to live and it's still documented in the exact same spot centuries after he was said to live. Josephus chronicled it in detail in his works and he was born decades after Jesus' supposed undocumented secularly execution.
For your fan fiction to work you have to be claiming Japhia for a short time Jesus was said to live changed it's name to Nazareth and then immediately changed it's name back to Japhia and the name Nazareth completely erased for over 100 years. All the while everyone deciding not to document any of this.
That is the only way Jesus could have come from Nazareth.
<quoted text>

and i responded;
"do we? can you link one?"
should i try it in spanish?
how about a little contextual comprehension on your part?

show us a map that indicates that japhia was always in the same location. i never said that it became nazareth and then reverted to japhia. i suggested that the old location of japhia may have become the original nazareth. but neither on is now in their original location.
barry

Rainsville, AL

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#1209
May 10, 2013
 

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Patriot wrote:
Barry I was surfing the threads and seen where you were posting, I just thought I would say Hey
oh my, now my secrets are out.
how are you doing pat? i'll remember to pray for you.
barry

Rainsville, AL

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#1210
May 10, 2013
 

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Givemeliberty wrote:
He vowed a burnt offering and it clearly says he kept his vow. Nothing else needs to be said. Oh and also making a girl stay a virgin was against Jewish law and there is not one documented example of virgin girls working at the all man club temple.
<quoted text>
so you wish to isolate the story from the rest of the Bible and then add your understanding to the content of the story as if you were some kind of expert on the keeping or fulfilling of vows.

#1 he made the vow to God. he could not fulfill the vow in any way that would be displeasing to God. [Deut. 12:31;18:10]
human sacrifice was not acceptable to God because there was only one person who would be acceptable in a sacrifice to God.
#2 a burnt offering had to be a male animal.[Lev. 22:19]
#3 a vow could be redeemed but apparently he chose not to because she was fit for the vow only she could not be sacrificed physically in death so she could be set aside and become "holy" to God's service.[Lev. 27]

now as for your claim that There is no evidence of women serving in the temple as virgins you might be correct. but there is evidence that women who separated their lives [became holy] to temple service,
there are the "daughters of shiloh" [Judges 21],
Anna in Luke 2 was set aside or set herself aside to serve in the temple
in exodus 38 women played a role in the tabernacle assembly.
and women again are mentioned in the tabernacle in 1Samuel 2
barry

Rainsville, AL

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#1211
May 10, 2013
 

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Givemeliberty wrote:
He was Jesus of Nazareth barely not Jesus of Japhia. Nazareth didn't even exist during his lifetime. All your hand ringing and claims that cities randomly changed names back in the ancient world makes no sense and is laughable.
Worse for your claim to work would be saying Jesus was from the same city as Josephus which is insane because if they were from the same city he would have certainly mentioned that fact.
Instead he never mentions Jesus or Nazareth, how do you explain Josephus missing an entire city when it was his job to map out and document the area?
<quoted text>
i'll take that as you don't have a link to a map or maps that would show us that the Japhia of the book of judges was in the same place as it was in the time of josephus.
i posted rene salem's conclusions as to why he thinks that both nazareth and japhia were moved but you want to hold onto a josephus map as your only proof when you reject the josephus works that refer to the life of Christ.

Since: Mar 11

Lexington, KY

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#1212
May 10, 2013
 
All I am doing is showing what the bible clearly illustrates. You are tap dancing around what it clearly says, trying to mix in unrelated passages and even making up your own passages saying she went to work in the most glorious beautiful building in the land!( some sacrifice eh? After that all the dads would be doing the same thing at the begging of their daughters!)

1: What you fail to mention is he made a vow to god perhaps in his desperation to win, plus the story shows Jephthah wasn't exactly your standard Hebrew was he? Warrior, fighter and had a kid with a prostitute! Fulfilling his vow would be difficult even for a rough, battle hardened guy like that. Now would sending your daughter to work at the beautiful spectacular temple where you could see her daily cause you to rip your clothes in grief? Nope. But offering her as a burnt offering would and what was his vow again?

2: she wasn't an animal so your passage is worthless and you know it. Regardless his vow was whatever came out of his house not whatever male came out of his house. Again you are writing biblical fan fiction.

Yes you cannot find a single passage showing women given such an honor. Women were looked down upon as second class citizens especially in the OT. Working at the temple was an illustrious job respected and honored. To think that honor would be given to a girl in the OT is preposterous.
barry wrote:
<quoted text>so you wish to isolate the story from the rest of the Bible and then add your understanding to the content of the story as if you were some kind of expert on the keeping or fulfilling of vows.

#1 he made the vow to God. he could not fulfill the vow in any way that would be displeasing to God.

#2 a burnt offering had to be a male animal.[Lev. 22:19]

now as for your claim that There is no evidence of women serving in the temple as virgins you might be correct. 2

Since: Mar 11

Lexington, KY

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#1213
May 10, 2013
 
You would need to study Josephus and other ancient writers in a historical sense not an apologetic one.

You have been given several links but obviously you never clicked them as they shatter your delusion.

I pity you.
barry wrote:
<quoted text>i'll take that as you don't have a link to a map or maps that would show us that the Japhia of the book of judges was in the same place as it was in the time of josephus.
i posted rene salem's conclusions as to why he thinks that both nazareth and japhia were moved but you want to hold onto a josephus map as your only proof when you reject the josephus works that refer to the life of Christ.
Gary

Bellingham, WA

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#1214
May 10, 2013
 

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Luther wrote:
How thankful we should be for Billy Graham. The world would be a darker place if God had not raised him up. As Billy said in 1962, at a crusade: It's either back to the Bible or back to the jungle.
Ol' Billy did alright for himself peddling the word of God.

There is big money in religion if you have the charisma.

Billy had it in spades and died a rich man and he was free of scandal.
barry

Rainsville, AL

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#1215
May 10, 2013
 

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Givemeliberty wrote:
All I am doing is showing what the bible clearly illustrates. You are tap dancing around what it clearly says, trying to mix in unrelated passages and even making up your own passages saying she went to work in the most glorious beautiful building in the land!( some sacrifice eh? After that all the dads would be doing the same thing at the begging of their daughters!)
1: What you fail to mention is he made a vow to god perhaps in his desperation to win, plus the story shows Jephthah wasn't exactly your standard Hebrew was he? Warrior, fighter and had a kid with a prostitute! Fulfilling his vow would be difficult even for a rough, battle hardened guy like that. Now would sending your daughter to work at the beautiful spectacular temple where you could see her daily cause you to rip your clothes in grief? Nope. But offering her as a burnt offering would and what was his vow again?
2: she wasn't an animal so your passage is worthless and you know it. Regardless his vow was whatever came out of his house not whatever male came out of his house. Again you are writing biblical fan fiction.
Yes you cannot find a single passage showing women given such an honor. Women were looked down upon as second class citizens especially in the OT. Working at the temple was an illustrious job respected and honored. To think that honor would be given to a girl in the OT is preposterous.
<quoted text>
all verses quoted had to do with offerings and burnt offerings.
you claimed that there were no temple virgins now you claim that she couldn't be one because of his grief. which is it?
i did not claim that there were tabernacle/temple virgins just that there were women who served in the temple. i did not suggest that she ended up in the tabernacle only that it was a possibility. she could have gone and lived single apart from the community as a prophetess.

so #1 the sacrifice of burning her would have been rejected by God.
#2 she was not a proper subject for a burnt offering.
#3 he was not a priest so he couldn't make the offering. since the offering was clearly not going to be accepted by God, no priest would dare to offer it.
#4 the law provided a solution/alternative.
he gave her to a life of chastity and serving God. she became holy unto God.

btw you could at least get the story right but then when were details ever very important to you.
#1 he was the son of an harlot not she.
the sons of his father's wife threw him out of the house because he could not inherit and it would mess up their inheritance.
#2 renting your clothes was often symbolic so that there would be no confusion of your intent. while he should have been celebrating he wanted everyone to know that he was now grieved. he who had no heritage now had lost any chance of a lineage in israel.
#3 he understood the law. he negotiates with his enemies before going to war with them. during the negotiations he rehearses the events of exodus, levitcus and deuteronomy. he knew the law.

#4 each year the daughters of israel celebrated the daughter of jepthah.
#5 jepthah is listed in the Hebrews chapter of faith [chapter 11]. hardly would seem fitting for God to list him there if he made the vow in desperation and then offered a sacrifice that would be rejected by God because it broke the law of God.
barry

Rainsville, AL

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#1216
May 10, 2013
 

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Givemeliberty wrote:
You would need to study Josephus and other ancient writers in a historical sense not an apologetic one.
You have been given several links but obviously you never clicked them as they shatter your delusion.
I pity you.
<quoted text>
i really don't recall ever seeing many links from you. you make a claim and then ignore the polite request, as i am genuinely curious, to provide a link. i post links and then you ignore them.
rene is not a christian an agnostic at best. he even presents your position on some of the issues but he is honest when it comes to history.

so pity away, be happy.
barry

Rainsville, AL

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#1217
May 10, 2013
 

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Givemeliberty wrote:
You would need to study Josephus and other ancient writers in a historical sense not an apologetic one.
You have been given several links but obviously you never clicked them as they shatter your delusion.
I pity you.
<quoted text>
and if we are going to look at josephus in an historical sense then we must look at his personal history and accept the fact that he definitely had a bias and a motivation to what he wrote. and it definitely wasn't a Christian apologetic bias.

Since: Mar 11

Lexington, KY

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#1218
May 10, 2013
 
Where did I say she couldn't be one because of his grief? Now you are writing GML fan fiction!

What was his vow barely? Was it a burnt offering? Pretty sure it was a burnt offering. Wanna go double check that it was a burnt offering? Go ahead. Right so his vow was for a burnt offering. Glad we got that firmly established.

Now yes or no does the bible day he kept his vow? Does the the bible say he kept his vow? Hmmm yes why right there! It says he kept his vow and wait, what was the vow that he kept?

Burnt offering.

Your fan fiction about where this burnt offering went to work might be fun for avid readers of fan fiction but I'll stick with what the bible actually says. He promised a burnt offering, tore his clothes when he saw it would be his daughter, have her two months to mourn and then kept his vow.

1: Your personal opinion, Yahweh would have been more interested in him keeping his vow after receiving help in war.

2: She was the proper subject for the vow made. Jephthah didn't say the first proper subject for sacrifice that comes out of my house, again your fan fiction means nothing.

3: Burnt offerings were done by all Hebrews not just priests and his vow in a desperate time of war would have superseded any such etiquette anyways.

4: what law was that? The main law was for them to reproduce and grow the population. Even if there was some obscure law it never says he took that route anyways. It says he made a vow for a burnt offering and later he fulfilled that vow even as painful as it was. You admitted yourself there is not a single passage saying virgin girls were given the honor of living out their lives working at the temple. Even if there were that isn't much of a price to pay for Yahweh's help in war is it?

5: Jephthah was honored for his painful sacrifice of a burnt offering to Yahweh. No religious historian or artist ever suggested his daughter wasn't a burnt offering until the 18th century.

Oh and the daughters of Israel mourned her sacrifice lamented it you idiot! There was no celebration are you a sociopath?
barry wrote:
<quoted text>all verses quoted had to do with offerings and burnt offerings.
you claimed that there were no temple virgins now you claim that she couldn't be one because of his grief. which is it?
i did not claim that there were tabernacle/temple virgins just that there were women who served in the temple. i did not suggest that she ended up in the tabernacle only that it was a possibility. she could have gone and lived single apart from the community as a prophetess.

so #1 the sacrifice of burning her would have been rejected by God.
#2 she was not a proper subject for a burnt offering.
#3 he was not a priest so he couldn't make the offering. since the offering was clearly not going to be accepted by God, no priest would dare to offer it.
#4 the law provided a solution/alternative.
he gave her to a life of chastity and serving God. she became holy unto God.
#4 each year the daughters of israel celebrated the daughter of jepthah.
.

Since: Mar 11

Lexington, KY

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#1219
May 10, 2013
 
Yes we have provided several links even videos, I can't help it that you only accept apologetic material.
barry wrote:
<quoted text>i really don't recall ever seeing many links from you. you make a claim and then ignore the polite request, as i am genuinely curious, to provide a link. i post links and then you ignore them.
rene is not a christian an agnostic at best. he even presents your position on some of the issues but he is honest when it comes to history.

so pity away, be happy.

“Quantum Junctn: Use Both Lanes”

Since: Dec 06

Tulsa, Oklahoma USofA

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#1220
May 10, 2013
 
barry wrote:
<quoted text>obviously you didn't have an answer.
I already answered it-- you are incapable of LEARNING.

A very basic human function, you have ruined by your religious disease.

Sad.

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