Church Leaders Vow Political Backlash if Gay Marriage Passes

Jan 7, 2013 Full story: NBC Chicago 17,568

Leaders of several Chicago-area African American churches on Monday urged state lawmakers to vote against pending legislation that would allow same-sex marriage in Illinois.

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“Together for 24, legal for 5”

Since: Sep 07

Littleton, NH

#1848 Jan 23, 2013
barry wrote:
<quoted text>it may well be. but the problem is that God was not clear on it and the scenarios that i put forth have just as much validity based on what God has told us. probably more so than your insistence on the homosexual interpretation that you embrace. however you just seem to have stated that God was not angry with homosexual activity.
Frankly, I don't think God cares one way or the other about homosexual activity. He doesn't even care whether we love one another or we destroy one another. But Jesus did walk the earth to bring the message that man is better off when he loves fellow man and the world around him.

I also don't think your Bible has any more to do with God than Homer's Ulysses. I only try to point out that there are very different readings than the ones you insist on, as there are in any profound literature. And I try to point out some of the history and subtleties that most people seem to miss.

“Together for 24, legal for 5”

Since: Sep 07

Littleton, NH

#1850 Jan 23, 2013
barry wrote:
<quoted text>you're apparently not familiar with how manuscripts were copied nor are you familiar with how texts are assembled and translated.
the kj theory is actually funny as the homosexual loving theologians will try to make a case that KJ was actually a homosexual in some way or another.
and i guess now the new niv also must be deliberately political.
The latest version of the popular NIV Bible translation has had its verses on homosexuality reworded, making them clearer in denouncing the practice, a theologian who helped with the translation says.
These clarifications include the verse in 1 Corinthians 6:9, where the 1984 NIV version uses the phrase “homosexual offenders,” while the 2011 translation changes the phrase to "men who have sex with men."
“The updated NIV makes clear that the Greek words here indicate any kind of homosexual activity. The updated NIV also reflects the fact that the key Greek word here refers to males.”
According to Moo, other verses that were altered due to scholarship and to make the message clearer included Romans 1:26-27 and Leviticus 18:22.
In Romans 1:26, the verse “even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones,” was changed to,“even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones.” While in Leviticus 18:22, the verse “Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman,” was changed to,“Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman.”
One verse that appears to have been changed dramatically was 1Timothy 1:10, where the word “perverts” from the 1984 NIV was changed to “those practicing homosexuality.”
Read more at http://www.christianpost.com/news/latest-niv-...
i guess those niv scholars might not be serious scholars?
Thank you for illustrating how the Bible is continually changed by those who wish to force an agenda. No serious Bible scholars believe that those "clarifications" hew closer to the source texts than KJ. They merely make the pablum easier to digest for people who are too lazy to read critically. And critical reading is the last thing they want to encourage.

Since: Jun 11

AOL

#1852 Jan 23, 2013
"If Jesus ever said anything about homosexuality, it is not recorded in the Bible, even mistranslated. He did, however, speak extensively on God's unconditional love. Yet instead of dwelling on biblical love, Christians have historically been more concerned with obscure passages of Levitical cleanliness codes and Paul's misunderstood comments in Romans. Instead of focusing on the incredible injustice and hatred demonstrated by Christians and others, tying to deny homosexuals even basic civil rights, people appear more concerned with the specific homosexual acts between consenting adults who are naturally have a homosexual orientation. As James B. Nelson notes, the Bible more clearly advocates a "love ethic" rather than a "sex ethic."

I Cor 6:9, no way refers to homosexuality. The original Greek word often quoted as sexual immorality, Paul used was "porneia" which means "a harlot for hire". In Corinth in the temples of Venus, the principal deity of Corinth, where Christians went to worship, a thousand public prostitutes were kept at public expense to glorify and act as surrogates for the fertility Gods. This sex with the pagan Gods is what Paul was talking about - fornication is an admitted mistranslation and has nothing to do with gays or singles sex. This rendering reflected the bias of the translators rather than an accurate translation of Paul's words to a culture of 2000 years ago worshipping pagan sex gods.

Romans 1:26-27 mentions homosexual acts performed by people who are clearly described as heterosexual. The men in the NT patriarchal culture exerted dominance not only over women, but over younger males as well. The nature of homosexual acts in the Bible are so very different from what we know as homosexuality today that the passages have no application to today's homosexuality. Such practices as in NT times simply no longer exist. Alleged references to homosexuality in I Corinthians and I Timothy are the inventions of anti-gay translators. They are not in the original Greek texts." (Rev.Dr. Mel White) The word "homosexual" wasn't even invented until 1869. When you see it in the bible, you know it is a modern mistranslation and misinterpretation of the original texts.

"What the Bible forbids is acts of lust, rape, idolatry, violation of religious purity obligations, or pederasty, but no condemnation of homosexuality in relationships of mutual respect and love. "On the other hand, the Bible pointedly celebrates instances of same-sex emotional intimacy, a fact often overlooked by fearful homophobic readers." James B. Nelson, Professor of Christian Ethics, United Theological Seminary

Yet Jesus told us:

John 13:34: A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.

John 15:12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you.

Matthew 7:1: "Do not judge, or you too will be judged.

Luke 6:37: "Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.

Matthew 7:12: So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

Meanwhile, the irrational prejudice promoted by some who claim to be Christians, continues to cause needless suffering and death, here and around the world.
barry

Rainsville, AL

#1853 Jan 23, 2013
Not Yet Equal wrote:
"If Jesus ever said anything about homosexuality, it is not recorded in the Bible, even mistranslated. He did, however, speak extensively on God's unconditional love. Yet instead of dwelling on biblical love, Christians have historically been more concerned with obscure passages of Levitical cleanliness codes and Paul's misunderstood comments in Romans. Instead of focusing on the incredible injustice and hatred demonstrated by Christians and others, tying to deny homosexuals even basic civil rights, people appear more concerned with the specific homosexual acts between consenting adults who are naturally have a homosexual orientation. As James B. Nelson notes, the Bible more clearly advocates a "love ethic" rather than a "sex ethic."
I Cor 6:9, no way refers to homosexuality. The original Greek word often quoted as sexual immorality, Paul used was "porneia" which means "a harlot for hire". In Corinth in the temples of Venus, the principal deity of Corinth, where Christians went to worship, a thousand public prostitutes were kept at public expense to glorify and act as surrogates for the fertility Gods. This sex with the pagan Gods is what Paul was talking about - fornication is an admitted mistranslation and has nothing to do with gays or singles sex. This rendering reflected the bias of the translators rather than an accurate translation of Paul's words to a culture of 2000 years ago worshipping pagan sex gods.
Romans 1:26-27 mentions homosexual acts performed by people who are clearly described as heterosexual. The men in the NT patriarchal culture exerted dominance not only over women, but over younger males as well. The nature of homosexual acts in the Bible are so very different from what we know as homosexuality today that the passages have no application to today's homosexuality. Such practices as in NT times simply no longer exist. Alleged references to homosexuality in I Corinthians and I Timothy are the inventions of anti-gay translators. They are not in the original Greek texts." (Rev.Dr. Mel White) The word "homosexual" wasn't even invented until 1869. When you see it in the bible, you know it is a modern mistranslation and misinterpretation of the original texts.
"What the Bible forbids is acts of lust, rape, idolatry, violation of religious purity obligations, or pederasty, but no condemnation of homosexuality in relationships of mutual respect and love. "On the other hand, the Bible pointedly celebrates instances of same-sex emotional intimacy, a fact often overlooked by fearful homophobic readers." James B. Nelson, Professor of Christian Ethics, United Theological Seminary
Yet Jesus told us:
John 13:34: A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.
John 15:12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you.
Matthew 7:1: "Do not judge, or you too will be judged.
Luke 6:37: "Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.
Matthew 7:12: So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.
Meanwhile, the irrational prejudice promoted by some who claim to be Christians, continues to cause needless suffering and death, here and around the world.
but in that same Mathew 7 did not Jesus say;
Matthew 7:6.
“Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.”

it would appear that we need to figure out [judge] who the swine and the dogs are.

“But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.” 1 Corinthians 2:15

“For what have I to do to judge them that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?”(the church). 1 Corinthians 5:12

Ephesians 5:11
And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.

“equality for ALL means ALL”

Since: Jan 07

Fort Lauderdale FL

#1854 Jan 23, 2013
barry wrote:
<quoted text>you have no faith. your god apparently is not able to keep his word. you live by your opinion of the opinions of man. your god has been created in the image of your understanding.
the God i believe in has promised to keep, preserve and fulfill his word.
Again, he babbles nonsense without addressing the post.

Loser.

“equality for ALL means ALL”

Since: Jan 07

Fort Lauderdale FL

#1855 Jan 23, 2013
barry wrote:
<quoted text>you're apparently not familiar with how manuscripts were copied nor are you familiar with how texts are assembled and translated.
the kj theory is actually funny as the homosexual loving theologians will try to make a case that KJ was actually a homosexual in some way or another.
and i guess now the new niv also must be deliberately political.
The latest version of the popular NIV Bible translation has had its verses on homosexuality reworded, making them clearer in denouncing the practice, a theologian who helped with the translation says.
These clarifications include the verse in 1 Corinthians 6:9, where the 1984 NIV version uses the phrase “homosexual offenders,” while the 2011 translation changes the phrase to "men who have sex with men."
“The updated NIV makes clear that the Greek words here indicate any kind of homosexual activity. The updated NIV also reflects the fact that the key Greek word here refers to males.”
According to Moo, other verses that were altered due to scholarship and to make the message clearer included Romans 1:26-27 and Leviticus 18:22.
In Romans 1:26, the verse “even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones,” was changed to,“even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones.” While in Leviticus 18:22, the verse “Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman,” was changed to,“Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman.”
One verse that appears to have been changed dramatically was 1Timothy 1:10, where the word “perverts” from the 1984 NIV was changed to “those practicing homosexuality.”
Read more at http://www.christianpost.com/news/latest-niv-...
i guess those niv scholars might not be serious scholars?
Did God authorize them to change His words?

No.

Since: Jun 11

AOL

#1857 Jan 23, 2013
barry wrote:
<quoted text>but in that same Mathew 7 did not Jesus say;
Matthew 7:6.
“Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.”
it would appear that we need to figure out [judge] who the swine and the dogs are.
“But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.” 1 Corinthians 2:15
“For what have I to do to judge them that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?”(the church). 1 Corinthians 5:12
Ephesians 5:11
And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.
Many verses can be interpreted in various ways, and verses have been used in the past to support genocide, inquisitions, slavery, and a variety of other atrocities. Yet many other verses are quite clear that those interpretations which cause needless harm are inconsistent with the message of Jesus.

Matthew 7:12,: So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

Galatians 5:14: The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself."

James 2-8 But if you keep the greatest law of all, as it is given in the holy Writings, Have love for your neighbour as for yourself, you do well:

Matthew 22:37-40 Jesus said to him, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it:'Love your neighbor as yourself. The entire law and all the demands of the prophets are based on these two commandments."

Mark 12:30-31: And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength: this is the first commandment. And the second is like, namely this, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

Luke 10:27: He answered:‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’; and,‘Love your neighbor as yourself.'

Romans 13:8 Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law.
Romans 13:9 The commandments,“Do not commit adultery,”“Do not murder,”“Do not steal,”“Do not covet,” and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule:“Love your neighbor as yourself.”
Romans 13:10 Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

1 John 4:21: And he has given us this command: Whoever loves God must also love his brother.

James 4-11 Brothers, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against his brother or judges him speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it.

Romans 12-10: Be devoted to one another in brotherly love. Honor one another above yourselves.

Since: Jun 11

AOL

#1858 Jan 23, 2013

Leviticus 19:18: You shall not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the LORD.

Leviticus 19:34: But the stranger that dwells with you shall be to you as one born among you, and you shall love him as yourself; for you were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.

Luke 6:31: Do to others as you would have them do to you.

John 13:34: A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.

John 15:12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you.

John 15:17: This is my command: Love each other.

Matthew 7:1: "Do not judge, or you too will be judged.

Luke 6:37: "Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.

Romans 2-1 You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things.

James 4:11 Brothers, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against his brother or judges him speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it.

Romans 14:13 Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way.

Since: Jun 11

AOL

#1859 Jan 23, 2013
barry wrote:
<quoted text>it may well be. but the problem is that God was not clear on it and the scenarios that i put forth have just as much validity based on what God has told us. probably more so than your insistence on the homosexual interpretation that you embrace. however you just seem to have stated that God was not angry with homosexual activity.
Dr. James B. Nelson, Professor of Christian Ethics, United Theological Seminary: "what the Bible forbids is acts of lust, rape, idolatry, violation of religious purity obligations, or pederasty, but not condemnation of homosexuality in relationships of mutual respect and love."

"The New Testament and Homosexuality" Robin Scroggs, Prof of New Testament at Union Theological Seminary is a serious theologian and is favorable reviewed by many theologians. He is a happily married heterosexual with no personal bias. He includes cites from Boswell and expands further especially on pederasty and concludes there is nothing biblically wrong with homosexuality.

"What the Bible Really Says About Homosexuality" by Daniel Helminiask, PH.D., was ordained as a Catholic priest in 1967 and is incardinated in the Diocese of Pittsburgh. From 1981-1985 was Assoc Prof for Systematic Theology at Oblate School of Theology and earlier completed his Ph.D. in systematic theology at Boston College and Andover Newton Theological School. He concludes the Bible says absolutely nothing about homosexuality being sinful when you examine the actual Hebrew/Greek texts."

Baptist Rev Dr. William R. Stayton, Divinity degree from Andover
Newtown Theological School and on faculty of LaSalle University's Grad program in Religious studies:- "There is nothing in the Bible regarding homosexual orientation. In fact, the Bible does not concern itself with sexual orientation. It does speak against gang rape, male prostitution for religious purposes, and pederasty. I lead bible study programs on this subject and am convinced that the Bible does not address the issue of a person's sexual orientation."

Many believe the bible does not excuse ignoring the Golden Rule.
Rainbow Kid

Alpharetta, GA

#1860 Jan 23, 2013
Voila wrote:
You might also want to consult The Didache, one of the earliest Christian writings that confirms that homosexual behavior was prohibited among early Christians.
We're not early Christians
.
So it doesn't matter diddly what the Didache did to who; sugar
Jane Dodo

Hoboken, NJ

#1862 Jan 23, 2013
barry wrote:
<quoted text>you're apparently not familiar with how manuscripts were copied nor are you familiar with how texts are assembled and translated.
the kj theory is actually funny as the homosexual loving theologians will try to make a case that KJ was actually a homosexual in some way or another.
There is no need to make a "case" for the fact that King James was a homo. It's not exactly a secret. Even Sir Walter Raleigh called him "Queen James."
Rainbow Kid

Alpharetta, GA

#1865 Jan 23, 2013
Jude wrote:
It testifies to the fact that those who knew Jesus knew he commanded against all homosexual behavior, as also recorded in the Bible.
You have it totally backwards; as fundies often do
.
Jesus explained it and recorded it in the Bible using red ink. He even went so far as to exempt gays from adultery; with instructions to breeders to back off
.
++++++++++
Matthew 19:9> "And I say vnto you, Whosoeuer shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away, doth commit adultery."
.
Matthew 19:10> ¶ His disciples say vnto him, "If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is not good to marrie."
.
Matthew 19:11> But hee said vnto them, "All men cannot receiue this saying, saue they to whom it is giuen."
.
Matthew 19:12> "For there are some Eunuches, which were so borne from their mothers wombe: and there are some Eunuches, which were made Eunuches of men: and there be Eunuches, which haue made themselues Eunuches for the kingdome of heauens sake. He that is able to receiue it, let him receiue it."
++++++++++
http://www.well.com/user/aquarius/

“I Luv Carbon Dioxide”

Since: Dec 08

Location hidden

#1866 Jan 24, 2013
Marriage isn't for everybody.

Importing same sex marriage from Holland would change the perfect gender diversity of male/female marriage.

In 2001, the Netherlands became the first nation in the world to grant same-sex marriages.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Same-sex_marriag...
Jane Dodo

Hoboken, NJ

#1867 Jan 24, 2013
Brian_G wrote:
Marriage isn't for everybody.
Importing same sex marriage from Holland would change the perfect gender diversity of male/female marriage.
In 2001, the Netherlands became the first nation in the world to grant same-sex marriages.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Same-sex_marriag...
Check it out, Brian:

http://www.topix.com/news/gay/2013/01/panetta...

One of your arguments just completely evaporated.
Jane Dodo

Hoboken, NJ

#1868 Jan 24, 2013
Jude wrote:
<quoted text>It testifies to the fact that those who knew Jesus knew he commanded against all homosexual behavior, as also recorded in the Bible.
You worship perversion, not God.
Really? And what books were written by "those who knew jesus?"

“equality for ALL means ALL”

Since: Jan 07

Fort Lauderdale FL

#1869 Jan 24, 2013
Jane Dodo wrote:
<quoted text>
Really? And what books were written by "those who knew jesus?"
Exactly ZERO - ding! ding! ding!

“I Luv Carbon Dioxide”

Since: Dec 08

Location hidden

#1870 Jan 24, 2013
Consider Kant's Categorical Imperative, if a policy or act is good, then making that act or policy a universal rule would show us something of the value.

Same sex marriage is bad because the supporters do so because how it feels to be inclusive, fair, sympathetic and enlightened. No difference than a religion.

Since: Jun 11

AOL

#1871 Jan 24, 2013
While there are various explanations of natural law, one of the tenets that appears throughout the various versions, is the ethic of reciprocity and equality. That "no man require to reserve to himself any right, which he is not content should be reserved to every one of the rest".

Since: Jun 11

AOL

#1872 Jan 24, 2013
"The conservative movement, to which I subscribe, has as one of its basic tenets the belief that government should stay out of people’s private lives. Government governs best when it governs least - and stays out of the impossible task of legislating morality. But legislating someone’s version of morality is exactly what we do by perpetuating discrimination against gays." (Conservative Icon, WW2 hero, former AZ Senator and Republican Presidential candidate Barry Goldwater, 1993)

Since: Jun 11

AOL

#1873 Jan 24, 2013
James Madison wrote:“It is of great importance in a republic not only to guard the society against the oppression of its rulers, but to guard one part of the society against the injustice of the other part … If a majority be united by a common interest, the rights of the minority will be insecure.”

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