Church Leaders Vow Political Backlash if Gay Marriage Passes

Jan 7, 2013 | Posted by: roboblogger | Full story: NBC Chicago

Leaders of several Chicago-area African American churches on Monday urged state lawmakers to vote against pending legislation that would allow same-sex marriage in Illinois.

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#1033
Jan 12, 2013
 

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aisling- wrote:
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Hi sONE. I guess the way that I look at it is I'm definitely against same sex marriage and large in part of how it will affect society and what could result in the long run. Not to mention that it does go against my religious beliefs and the values that I hold for myself.
One the other hand, I'm not out to condemn gay people or judge them in that it's not my place to do so. I guess you might say that I'm a realist and I understand that civil unions are similar to marriage but it's not marriage per se. I definitely don't believe that gays should be discriminated against in our court system or denied anything such as benefits, etc. So I would have to say that to make both sides happy, yes to civil unions but no to marriage. That way they have theirs and we have ours. Both are separate, no one is considered inferior, just that both are different for the obvious reasons.
And how will it affect society in any harmful way?

Neither vague fear of the future nor a religious belief not shared by all, constitute a legitimate governmental interest sufficient for deny equal treatment under the law as required by the 5th and 14th amendments to the constitution.

Denial of equal treatment is harmful in many ways. Equal treatment harms no one.

In case you missed it, separate can never be equal: "The statutory provisions that continue to limit access to this designation exclusively to opposite sex couples likely will be viewed as an official statement that the family relationship of same sex couples are not of comparable stature or equal dignity to the family relationship of opposite-sex couples." (p.118 In Re Marriage)

"While retention of the limitation of marriage to opposite-sex couples is not needed to preserve the rights and benefits of opposite-sex couples, the exclusion of same sex couples from the designation of marriage works a real and appreciable harm upon same-sex couples and their children." (p.117 In re Marriage)
sickofit

Owatonna, MN

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#1034
Jan 12, 2013
 

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sONE wrote:
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I don't believe I have a problem determining it. I said many will want to blur the lines to suit themselves and I see it in many situations.
So, many who would say they are "on the left" politically put down the right but the left are usually the ones who are the most insulting in a debate and tell people to die and that they hope horrible things happen to them, that they are stupid, etc.
TO SUIT THEMSELVES..........yes freedom.....great isnt it....WELL NOT TO YOU ANZI FASCIST RELIGOUS CREEPS....You want to cotnrol peoples lives ...DONT YOU?????

the left is most of the time on the defense from teh righst UNCONSTITUTIONAL NASTY ATTACKS....You have to fight fire with fire...
aisling-

Dundee, OH

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#1035
Jan 12, 2013
 

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Not Yet Equal wrote:
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Laws that deny equality, stigmatize those being denied. This stigma affects how they are treated in a wide variety of situations, and can affect how they view themselves when the government tells them they are not worthy of equal treatment.
The Supreme Court ruled on the matter of "separate but equal" in the 1954 case Brown v. Board of Education. The court recognized that "separate but equal" opportunities created a feeling of inferiority for the minorities being segregated, and that this feeling of segregation could cause permanent emotional injury.It was the feeling of segregation and therefore inferiority that caused the court to determine separate could not be equal.
Ca. Supreme court agrees: "The statutory provisions that continue to limit access to this designation exclusively to opposite sex couples likely will be viewed as an official statement that the family relationship of same sex couples are not of comparable stature or equal dignity to the family relationship of opposite-sex couples." (p.118 In Re Marriage)
"While retention of the limitation of marriage to opposite-sex couples is not needed to preserve the rights and benefits of opposite-sex couples, the exclusion of same sex couples from the designation of marriage works a real and appreciable harm upon same-sex couples and their children." (p.117 In re Marriage)
However, a marriage license is not going to make you any more or less equal. As long as you are treated fairly and not discriminated against in a court of law, etc, then you would be treated equally. The whole "equality" issue is, imo, is blown out of proportion in society. You can only be made to feel unequal if you allow someone to make you feel that way. There will always be someone who is, so to speak, better or worse than someone else. Be it intelligence, appearance, richer or poorer, etc. If one is intellectually honest with themselves, same sex marriage will always be viewed different than marriage between a man and a woman. No marriage license will change that. Separate is not always a bad thing nor does it have to or should it mean inferior.

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#1036
Jan 12, 2013
 

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sONE wrote:
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So... what you are looking for is a validation from society and not just laws that protect you equally across the board.
Legal equality is what we have been promised by our founding documents and what is required by the constitution. Whether validation is inherent in legal equality or not, legal equality is what we want and have every right to expect.

Since: Feb 09

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#1037
Jan 12, 2013
 

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Not Yet Equal wrote:
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And still, no legitimate governmental interest sufficient to deny equal treatment under the law as required by the 5th and 14th amendments to the constitution.
Could we stick to marriage equality please?
Equality is FINE- but marriage is ONE MAN and ONE WOMAN. It is not a MAN and a MAN or a WOMAN and a WOMAN or numerous people of one or multiple genders who want to be a family.

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#1038
Jan 12, 2013
 

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sickofit wrote:
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TO SUIT THEMSELVES..........yes freedom.....great isnt it....WELL NOT TO YOU ANZI FASCIST RELIGOUS CREEPS....You want to cotnrol peoples lives ...DONT YOU?????
the left is most of the time on the defense from teh righst UNCONSTITUTIONAL NASTY ATTACKS....You have to fight fire with fire...
Good gawd......

“equality for ALL means ALL”

Since: Jan 07

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#1039
Jan 12, 2013
 

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sONE wrote:
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I don't believe I have a problem determining it. I said many will want to blur the lines to suit themselves and I see it in many situations.
So, many who would say they are "on the left" politically put down the right but the left are usually the ones who are the most insulting in a debate and tell people to die and that they hope horrible things happen to them, that they are stupid, etc.
...only if it's true!

What does blurring the lines of morality have to do with legal recognition of same sex marriage?

The only immorality involved is fighting for inequality.

“equality for ALL means ALL”

Since: Jan 07

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#1040
Jan 12, 2013
 

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sONE wrote:
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Yeah, I have a life- but not much to do until evening and then a fuller schedule beginning Monday.
Good, I look forward to you getting back to your life beause you've done nothing but waste our time here with nothing to add to the discussion.
Masud_S_Hoghughi __

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#1041
Jan 12, 2013
 
sONE wrote:
<quoted text>
Equality is FINE- but marriage is ONE MAN and ONE WOMAN. It is not a MAN and a MAN or a WOMAN and a WOMAN or numerous people of one or multiple genders who want to be a family.
.....some men have more than one wife.........and there is nothing unnatural about that.........

“equality for ALL means ALL”

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#1042
Jan 12, 2013
 

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sONE wrote:
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Equality is FINE- but marriage is ONE MAN and ONE WOMAN. It is not a MAN and a MAN or a WOMAN and a WOMAN or numerous people of one or multiple genders who want to be a family.
My marriage is a man and a man.

And there's nothing you can do about that.

DEAL WITH IT.
aisling-

Dundee, OH

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Jan 12, 2013
 

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snyper wrote:
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And a Nation/Country is nothing more than the individuals that create the cultureS. The United States has NEVER been mono-cultural. That makes things difficult, but not stagnant or oppressive.
True that this country was intended to me a 'melting pot' and each group assimilating into this country's culture. By definition:
"Culture is the characteristics of a particular group of people, defined by everything from language, religion, cuisine, social habits, music and arts. Today, in the United States as in other countries populated largely by immigrants, the culture is influenced by the many groups of people that now make up the country."

"Western culture

The term Western culture has come to define the culture of European countries as well as those such as the United States that have been heavily influenced by European immigration. Western culture has its roots in the Classical Period of the Greco-Roman era and the rise of Christianity in the fourteenth century.

Other drivers of the Western culture include Latin, Celtic, Germanic and Hellenic ethnic and linguistic groups. Today, the influences of Western culture can be seen in almost every country in the world."
aisling-

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#1044
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*to be a 'melting pot', even.
sickofit

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sONE wrote:
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Good gawd......
Yep got you didnt I??? PERSONAL FREEDOM....YOU SHOULD TRY IT..

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#1046
Jan 12, 2013
 

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sONE wrote:
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I don't believe I have a problem determining it. I said many will want to blur the lines to suit themselves and I see it in many situations.
So, many who would say they are "on the left" politically put down the right but the left are usually the ones who are the most insulting in a debate and tell people to die and that they hope horrible things happen to them, that they are stupid, etc.
Most of us can agree harm is a valid determination of morality. If something clearly and always causes harm, it is bad, where if it counters harm, it is good.

We know from history as well as science, that discrimination under the law is harmful to those denied equal treatment. We also know from history, science, literature, and religion, that treating others as we would treat ourselves is not harmful, but good.

As to debate, I believe being abusive and insulting is counterproductive. I try to avoid it, and hope others will as well. Yet it is very common, especially on the net, probably because the person with whom you are conversing is not in front of you, and it is more easy not consider their feelings. And yet, some come here just to bash and abuse. While perhaps they deserve what they get, I choose to leave the discipline to others.

But I disagree it is one sided. Rush is king of abusive, pejorative terminology instead of logic and reason. And here, it is on both sides as well.

So the only person you can control is yourself. Usually, reasonable people will respond reasonably if you insist on it. And the unreasonable people will show themselves as such without your help. You have a choice. Life isn't fair. You can be.

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Jan 12, 2013
 

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Tony C wrote:
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...only if it's true!
What does blurring the lines of morality have to do with legal recognition of same sex marriage?
The only immorality involved is fighting for inequality.
Well, NAMBLA attaches themselves in support of gay organizations, so they must be hoping to ride your coat tails somehow, or why associate themselves with it?
Jane Dodo

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#1048
Jan 12, 2013
 

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sONE wrote:
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Well, NAMBLA attaches themselves in support of gay organizations, so they must be hoping to ride your coat tails somehow, or why associate themselves with it?
NAMBLA?

hahahahah
ahahahahahha
ahahahahahah
ahahahahah

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#1049
Jan 12, 2013
 

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aisling- wrote:
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However, a marriage license is not going to make you any more or less equal. As long as you are treated fairly and not discriminated against in a court of law, etc, then you would be treated equally. The whole "equality" issue is, imo, is blown out of proportion in society. You can only be made to feel unequal if you allow someone to make you feel that way. There will always be someone who is, so to speak, better or worse than someone else. Be it intelligence, appearance, richer or poorer, etc. If one is intellectually honest with themselves, same sex marriage will always be viewed different than marriage between a man and a woman. No marriage license will change that. Separate is not always a bad thing nor does it have to or should it mean inferior.
It is often difficult for those who are not harmed by laws and religious beliefs which perpetuate anti-gay prejudice, to recognize and appreciate the severity of harm caused by those anti-gay laws, and scientifically unsupportable beliefs.

I suspect they are not closely related to any of the 14,000 gay people who have had their careers and sometimes their very lives destroyed by DADT.

I suspect they have never been physically attacked and beaten simply for being gay, fired from your job, kicked out of your home, disowned by family members, friends, and church for who you love.

They do not feel the effects of the demonization and dehumanization some who claim to be Christians dish out daily which drives many gay people to self destructive behavior including suicide.

They don't have one of the major political parties trying to criminalize them, including some who want to return us to the recent past when if we voiced our opinion we were locked up in jails and institutions, sometimes for life, and tortured with emetics, electric shock, castration, and lobotomies.

They are not among the highest per capita victims of hate crimes, youth homelessness, and suicide.

Individuals and governments don't bully, beat, imprison, torture, and kill them because of whom they love.

Suffering and death are the extreme results of the belief being gay is not acceptable and we must change to heterosexual or live a life of celibacy and denial of our humanity.

Not all Christian groups judge and condemn, and some accept gay people as we are without condition. But those who demonize and punish us are still killing us. Many of us reach a point where we decide to fight back rather than kill ourselves or accept dehumanization quietly. Unless we accept punishment and dehumanization as a way of life, we have no choice but to challenge and oppose prejudice no matter where is comes from, and whether it is mild or extreme.

Decades of history, literature, and science, in addition to trial records of many different courts have all clearly demonstrated: Prejudice and discrimination cause suffering and death.
Masud_S_Hoghughi __

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#1050
Jan 12, 2013
 

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Tony C wrote:
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My marriage is a man and a man.
And there's nothing you can do about that.
DEAL WITH IT.
.....so is one of u more masculine and the other more feminine?.........and do u both take the more masculine one's second name?.........

.....the sh** is too funny..........
aisling-

Dundee, OH

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#1051
Jan 12, 2013
 

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sONE wrote:
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I feel the same.
If it was only that easy. lol

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#1053
Jan 12, 2013
 

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sONE wrote:
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Well, NAMBLA attaches themselves in support of gay organizations, so they must be hoping to ride your coat tails somehow, or why associate themselves with it?
NAMBLA is not part of any reasonable discussion.

We know from decades of science and everything else, child abuse is harmful and therefore immoral. If you want to talk about child abuse, that is a different topic. As a Social Worker, I can tell you horrific tales all day of straight parents beating, boiling, burning thier children and worse. Lets stay on topic, shall we?

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