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# Our recommendation: Springboro voters should say 'yes' the first time to school levies

There are 31911 comments on the Dayton Daily News story from Feb 5, 2008, titled Our recommendation: Springboro voters should say 'yes' the first time to school levies. In it, Dayton Daily News reports that:

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Just Watching
#24567 May 2, 2013
SAME kids now in FIFTH GRADE

5th Grade 2011-2012 Ohio Achievement Assessment Tests Results.
.
Math .......52 possible points on the test
.
.
State Rating System and distribution of students for the 5th grade
.
Limited.......... 20 Students
Limited.......... 25% was the Average score for this group
Limited..........definition--0 -17 correct answers =(0-33% correct)
.
Basic..........35 Students
Basic ..........40% was the Average score for this group
Basic..........definition--18 - 23 correct answers =(34-44% correct)
.
Proficient........107 Students
Proficient........54% was the Average score for this group
Proficient.........definition- -24-32 correct answers =(46-62% correct)
.
Accelerated.....76 Students
Accelerated.....67% was the Average score for this group
Accelerated.....definition--33 -37 correct answers =(63-71% correct)
.
Advanced........82% was the Average score for this group
.
Applying Mr. Malone's same grading system used for assigning percentages to grades earned in the college credit program (PSEO)
.
Percentage of Students.....36% receiving F
D..... 63%- 74.99% correct answers......95 Students
Percentage of Students.....21% receiving D
Percentage of Students.....20% receiving C
B..... 85%- 92.99% correct answers........77 Students
Percentage of Students.....17% receiving B
A..... 93% correct answers and above.....27 Students
Percentage of Students....6% receiving A

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Just Watching
#24568 May 2, 2013
While the state's Euphemistic Standards show great strides it is derived entirely by lowering the bar with each succeeding class.

(Grades 3-5 are the same children tested from 2010-2012)

(Grades 6-8 are the same children tested from 2010-2012

2010,,,,PROFICIENT.....63-79% correct answers OAA Math test

2011....PROFICIENT.....48-69% correct answers OAA Math test

2012....PROFICIENT.....46-62% correct answers OAA Math test

2010,,,,PROFICIENT.....40-54% correct answers OAA Math test

2011....PROFICIENT.....34-58% correct answers OAA Math test

2012....PROFICIENT.....32-58% correct answers OAA Math test

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Just Watching
#24569 May 2, 2013
questions more questions wrote:
<Just Watching wrote:
That sounds pretty snooty, considering where most of you folks came from>
<<I responded
To whom was that comment directed at? And would you care to bloviate on the comment?>>>
Looking at the previous posts
I think you were responding to the posters putting down Middletown.If incorrect let me know
Just love Bill O'Reillys word Bloviate...
Actually bloviate had its inception in the 1850's, but was popularized in the 1920's when noted writer for the Baltimore Sun newspaper, Mr. H.L. Mencken, used it to describe the pecular way President Harding spoke at length and with flourish yet never said anything of import.

Not just the poster putting down Middletown, but all those places that aren't "Springboro".

Truth is, we ain't all that and most folks around here came from decidedly different circumstances than they currently enjoy.

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raises
#24570 May 3, 2013
Just Watching wrote:
<quoted text>
Actually bloviate had its inception in the 1850's, but was popularized in the 1920's when noted writer for the Baltimore Sun newspaper, Mr. H.L. Mencken, used it to describe the pecular way President Harding spoke at length and with flourish yet never said anything of import.
Not just the poster putting down Middletown, but all those places that aren't "Springboro".
Truth is, we ain't all that and most folks around here came from decidedly different circumstances than they currently enjoy.
Do you even like living here? Are you proud of this community? I tend to be positive and want to build things up.....many people on here seem to dislike the community in which they live and want to tear things down instead of build things up. Doesn't make sense to me.

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raises
#24571 May 3, 2013
Just Watching wrote:
<quoted text>
You could be working in Middletown where they took a 1% reduction in pay in FY 2012, and another 1% reduction in FY 2013, pay freeze in FY 2014. Health insurance participation went to 20%. No step raises for life of contract.
Upside for the teachers, they are still all working.
http://www.daytondailynews.com/news/news/loca...
So 1% can be a raise or it can be a 1% reduction.
If the SEA and the teachers in Springboro don't like the fact that their W2 for FY 2012 was more than their W2 in FY2011, then they probably didn't need the money anyway.
Middletown teachers sacrificed for their children, just like most of the residents of Springboro do everyday for their children.
And again, you like to compare ourselves to other school districts when the argument suits you. When people try to compare pay rates to other communities, I believe you have in the past, said - oh no, you can't compare us to other school districts......

Can't have it both ways. Either we compre to other school districts, or we don't.

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questions more questions
#24572 May 3, 2013
Just Watching wrote:
<quoted text>
Actually bloviate had its inception in the 1850's, but was popularized in the 1920's when noted writer for the Baltimore Sun newspaper, Mr. H.L. Mencken, used it to describe the pecular way President Harding spoke at length and with flourish yet never said anything of import.
Not just the poster putting down Middletown, but all those places that aren't "Springboro".
Truth is, we ain't all that and most folks around here came from decidedly different circumstances than they currently enjoy.
Thanks for the response and the history of bloviate. I just know O'reilly is about the only one using it today. I think it definitely can be applicable to any Presidential press conference which has scripted pre selected questions with rambling pre programmed answers which state absolutely nothing of value.

I always wondered how we could have so many schools and students rated so high. Yet are falling behind in international testing of students. I never realized how bad the situation really is.

Springboro is not unique in some of the attitudes you are condemning. There are quite a few districts that now have high median incomes, very nice subdivisions and a nice mix of business. They went from mostly farmland to "suburban utopias" in about 40 years or less. They all have one thing in common, they each think they are the best. Just ask them. Their schools are rated excellent or excellent with distinction.

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questions more questions
#24573 May 3, 2013
raises wrote:
<quoted text>
Do you even like living here? Are you proud of this community? I tend to be positive and want to build things up.....many people on here seem to dislike the community in which they live and want to tear things down instead of build things up. Doesn't make sense to me.
When I read your post, the first thing that came to mind was the crucifixion scene in Monty Pythons Life of Brian. All of them strung up dancing and singing "always look on the bright side of life"

IN MY OPINION I really do not think his posts discussing the data of the testing results is negative or a negative reflection on the community. They can be applied to all of these ratings put out by the state. I always found it hard to believe in the large number of schools and students can be rated so high.

I haven't seen many posts tearing down the community as you claim. What I see is people coming to grips with the fact that the testing and measurements of schools is a complete sham to some degree.

Before you ask me the same questions. I will answer them for you.
1. Yes I love living here.
2. I am proud of this community. Despite its flaws (as all communities have) Its a nice place to live. Its come a long way from the days of a very small town that pretty much celebrated a McDonalds being built.
3. I tend to be positive in life also. What I do not like is euphemisms claiming something is better than it really is. I do not like participation trophies so everyone feels like a winner because they received a trophy. I do not like hypocrites who find it ok to bash people (city council, mayor, governor, president, school board or topix poster) when they disagree with their views, yet take offense and try to claim the high road if others attack their favorite people.

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Just Watching
#24574 May 3, 2013
raises wrote:
<quoted text>
And again, you like to compare ourselves to other school districts when the argument suits you. When people try to compare pay rates to other communities, I believe you have in the past, said - oh no, you can't compare us to other school districts......
Can't have it both ways. Either we compre to other school districts, or we don't.
You are correct but comparing ourselves to their worst qualities to say we are not as bad as them is by nature horrific in its consequences.

If our kids are all doing terrible, but ours are performing at a slightly higher degree of terrible, the comparison is worthless. We are both terrible.

If another school district wishes to pursue a path that cannot be sustained, to choose the option of following it down that road is foolhardy at best. There is only so much money available to be squeezed from the taxpayers, the education business model needs to learn to live within that means.

Those who violate those premises find themselves engaged in vicious internecine warfare over resources. Those battles seldom produce any winners, lest of all for the children.

Resources need to allocated for compensation in such a way that recognizes the greatness of the individual as well as their weakness. By allowing the district to target raises, we will be able to encourage greatness, while simultaneously not rewarding poor performance. Those who do the best will receive the greater amounts of the raise pool. Those who are in the middle will receive the average amounts available. Those who are not getting the job done will receive the least or nothing.
That is how 93% of the rest of the economy works, and quite successfully I might add.

The union, on the other hand, believes everyone is equal, though some are more equal than others.
Thus everyone is equally deserving and must have the same reward regardless of whether or not they have earned such.

Which system do you believe serves our children the best?

The system that rewards greatness?

Or the one that subsidizes mediocrity and worse?

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Support Our Success
#24575 May 3, 2013
questions more questions wrote:
<quoted text>
When I read your post, the first thing that came to mind was the crucifixion scene in Monty Pythons Life of Brian. All of them strung up dancing and singing "always look on the bright side of life"
IN MY OPINION I really do not think his posts discussing the data of the testing results is negative or a negative reflection on the community. They can be applied to all of these ratings put out by the state. I always found it hard to believe in the large number of schools and students can be rated so high.
I haven't seen many posts tearing down the community as you claim. What I see is people coming to grips with the fact that the testing and measurements of schools is a complete sham to some degree.
Before you ask me the same questions. I will answer them for you.
1. Yes I love living here.
2. I am proud of this community. Despite its flaws (as all communities have) Its a nice place to live. Its come a long way from the days of a very small town that pretty much celebrated a McDonalds being built.
3. I tend to be positive in life also. What I do not like is euphemisms claiming something is better than it really is. I do not like participation trophies so everyone feels like a winner because they received a trophy. I do not like hypocrites who find it ok to bash people (city council, mayor, governor, president, school board or topix poster) when they disagree with their views, yet take offense and try to claim the high road if others attack their favorite people.
Inquiring minds are now asking if the latest red ribbon "support our teachers" campaign is not symbolism over substance. Are there any among our parents and community members who do not support our teachers?
We can all rally the red in support of our teacher’s rights to negotiate themselves A Fair Day's Pay For A Fair Day's Work;
But, can we all support the “status quo business as usual” old, outdated teachers union rights to walk out on our children's classroom education?
Why not add a white ribbon in support of our students' rights to receive a quality education, while keeping the costs of that education affordable for Springboro parents and taxpaying homeowners?
Red and white ribbons showing strong support for our teachers and children are made strongest by adding a blue ribbon of support for our school board representatives, school district administrative staff, and school district taxpayers? Can our community as a whole support our teachers and staff separate from support of our school district taxpayers and their elected officials?
Why not rally for the unity of red, white, and blue supporting substance over symbolism? Let's all rally in support of ALL working together to ensure that the children of the Springboro community receive an excellent education while keeping the costs of that education affordable, by carefully adhering to responsible spending!

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Just Has No Clue
#24576 May 3, 2013
If you have two students who begin first grade together, sit in the same class rooms together, and then take the OAA test together in the third grade, you would think that their results would be similar. In the beginning they are actually not that far apart, primarily because the amount of material to be covered is not that large.

This comment Just Watching proves that you have no clue how education works. To compare students who start first grade together and say they should test similar is ludicrous and naive. That's the thing people who are not in education don't understand, no two kids are alike. Each child is different. What if one of "YOUR" 1st graders has a severe learning disability? Should they test similar then? No they shouldn't, stick to the printing business chief! You don't need to be involved in educating the young children of Springboro.

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raises
#24577 May 3, 2013
questions more questions wrote:
<quoted text>
When I read your post, the first thing that came to mind was the crucifixion scene in Monty Pythons Life of Brian. All of them strung up dancing and singing "always look on the bright side of life"
IN MY OPINION I really do not think his posts discussing the data of the testing results is negative or a negative reflection on the community. They can be applied to all of these ratings put out by the state. I always found it hard to believe in the large number of schools and students can be rated so high.
I haven't seen many posts tearing down the community as you claim. What I see is people coming to grips with the fact that the testing and measurements of schools is a complete sham to some degree.
Before you ask me the same questions. I will answer them for you.
1. Yes I love living here.
2. I am proud of this community. Despite its flaws (as all communities have) Its a nice place to live. Its come a long way from the days of a very small town that pretty much celebrated a McDonalds being built.
3. I tend to be positive in life also. What I do not like is euphemisms claiming something is better than it really is. I do not like participation trophies so everyone feels like a winner because they received a trophy. I do not like hypocrites who find it ok to bash people (city council, mayor, governor, president, school board or topix poster) when they disagree with their views, yet take offense and try to claim the high road if others attack their favorite people.
I appreciate your post. Thank you for that. Its just when I read most of the people that post here, it is all of what is wrong with things. Nothing positive is really detailed or talked about. And I agree about people that bash others, yet take offense to their favorites getting bashed. I do not bash ANYONE. I tend to try and look at everyone's point of view. Everyone has their own sense of perspective and that should be respected. That doesn't happen a lot of this blog though.

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raises
#24578 May 3, 2013
Just Watching wrote:
<quoted text>
You are correct but comparing ourselves to their worst qualities to say we are not as bad as them is by nature horrific in its consequences.
If our kids are all doing terrible, but ours are performing at a slightly higher degree of terrible, the comparison is worthless. We are both terrible.
If another school district wishes to pursue a path that cannot be sustained, to choose the option of following it down that road is foolhardy at best. There is only so much money available to be squeezed from the taxpayers, the education business model needs to learn to live within that means.
Those who violate those premises find themselves engaged in vicious internecine warfare over resources. Those battles seldom produce any winners, lest of all for the children.
Resources need to allocated for compensation in such a way that recognizes the greatness of the individual as well as their weakness. By allowing the district to target raises, we will be able to encourage greatness, while simultaneously not rewarding poor performance. Those who do the best will receive the greater amounts of the raise pool. Those who are in the middle will receive the average amounts available. Those who are not getting the job done will receive the least or nothing.
That is how 93% of the rest of the economy works, and quite successfully I might add.
The union, on the other hand, believes everyone is equal, though some are more equal than others.
Thus everyone is equally deserving and must have the same reward regardless of whether or not they have earned such.
Which system do you believe serves our children the best?
The system that rewards greatness?
Or the one that subsidizes mediocrity and worse?
I couldn't agree more about the targeted raises. How would you propose doing that? The BOE has not proposed ANYTHING that I could read about how to go about doing that. I am sure a plan to do somerthing like that would at least be looked at carefully by the teachers, if not welcomed. But nothing has been proposed?

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Just Watching
#24579 May 3, 2013
raises wrote:
<quoted text>
I couldn't agree more about the targeted raises. How would you propose doing that? The BOE has not proposed ANYTHING that I could read about how to go about doing that. I am sure a plan to do somerthing like that would at least be looked at carefully by the teachers, if not welcomed. But nothing has been proposed?
It needs to come from within. The teachers know which ones are good and how it sorts out down the line. The teachers also know whose kids they dread getting each year because they know ahead of time how much extra work it will be to recover from the previous year. They also know the teachers in the previous grades who send them the best prepared kids.

None of this news to anyone, so the teachers need to get together to craft something that will reflect reality opposed to the union position that everyone is equal in each and every way.

Their input along with normal evaluations will produce the most positive results for all concerned, children, teachers, administrators, parents, and the community.

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Just Watching
#24580 May 3, 2013
Just Has No Clue wrote:
If you have two students who begin first grade together, sit in the same class rooms together, and then take the OAA test together in the third grade, you would think that their results would be similar. In the beginning they are actually not that far apart, primarily because the amount of material to be covered is not that large.
This comment Just Watching proves that you have no clue how education works. To compare students who start first grade together and say they should test similar is ludicrous and naive. That's the thing people who are not in education don't understand, no two kids are alike. Each child is different. What if one of "YOUR" 1st graders has a severe learning disability? Should they test similar then? No they shouldn't, stick to the printing business chief! You don't need to be involved in educating the young children of Springboro.
Remarkably, however, they do seem to begin failing in waves together as they progress through our system. I would like to seem the reverse that trend and with each succeeding year score better and better on the tests.

No one is arguing the fact that no children are equal, their education should be though.

And your argument that one of your kids has a severe learning disability does not account for 2000 plus kids in our system that are not getting the education the taxpayers are funding.

Unless you are telling me that 40% of the children in our school system have severe learning disabilities.

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Just Has No Clue
#24581 May 3, 2013
Just Watching wrote:
<quoted text>
Remarkably, however, they do seem to begin failing in waves together as they progress through our system. I would like to seem the reverse that trend and with each succeeding year score better and better on the tests.
"No one is arguing the fact that no children are equal, "
you are arguing that, thats precisely what your post said, they should be scoring the same

"their education should be though."

Please explain how their education is different? Is the teacher teaching different lessons to each kid?

And your argument that one of your kids has a severe learning disability does not account for 2000 plus kids in our system that are not getting the education the taxpayers are funding.

I was not arguing about your so called 2000 kids, I was simply stating that your rational on education is wrong. You can't look at kids and expect them to achieve the same because they are sitting next to each other in the same class. Stick to making copies bro!

Unless you are telling me that 40% of the children in our school system have severe learning disabilities.
This is such a ridiculous statement, over the top like must of your comments! Never did I say that, I said one kid. You love to fudge numbers.

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Just Has No Clue
#24582 May 3, 2013
Just Watching wrote:
<quoted text>
Remarkably, however, they do seem to begin failing in waves together as they progress through our system. I would like to seem the reverse that trend and with each succeeding year score better and better on the tests.
No one is arguing the fact that no children are equal, their education should be though.
And your argument that one of your kids has a severe learning disability does not account for 2000 plus kids in our system that are not getting the education the taxpayers are funding.
Unless you are telling me that 40% of the children in our school system have severe learning disabilities.
My last post was not fully posted. JW you are arguing that children should be equal. You said they started together in first grade then by third grade they should be scoring the same. This is precisely why you should not be in education. You don't understand how classrooms work but you want to judge every teacher on tests. Teachers should be evaluated but basing it on tests that do not hold kids accountable for their results or effort on said tests is as ridiculous as you saying two kids who started third grade should be scoring the same.

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raises
#24583 May 3, 2013
Just Watching wrote:
<quoted text>
It needs to come from within. The teachers know which ones are good and how it sorts out down the line. The teachers also know whose kids they dread getting each year because they know ahead of time how much extra work it will be to recover from the previous year. They also know the teachers in the previous grades who send them the best prepared kids.
None of this news to anyone, so the teachers need to get together to craft something that will reflect reality opposed to the union position that everyone is equal in each and every way.
Their input along with normal evaluations will produce the most positive results for all concerned, children, teachers, administrators, parents, and the community.
No actually, it shouldn't. It should come from both sides working together. The thing that is missed completely here is - although there are "two sides" - management and labor - they are all part of one team.

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Just Watching
#24584 May 3, 2013
raises wrote:
<quoted text>
No actually, it shouldn't. It should come from both sides working together. The thing that is missed completely here is - although there are "two sides" - management and labor - they are all part of one team.
Teachers need to provide their input into the process, if it is reasonable and well thought out rather than a grab bag to simply enrich themselves, then the teachers will have a real stake in their future. The teaches would then be able to mold that future to better serve all involved from teaches to children to parents to community that funds the entire affair.

It has become the time for the teachers to take back control of their profession from the professional labor salespeople, aka, union leadership at the local, state, and national level.
Just Watching
#24585 May 3, 2013
Just Has No Clue wrote:
<quoted text>
My last post was not fully posted. JW you are arguing that children should be equal. You said they started together in first grade then by third grade they should be scoring the same. This is precisely why you should not be in education. You don't understand how classrooms work but you want to judge every teacher on tests. Teachers should be evaluated but basing it on tests that do not hold kids accountable for their results or effort on said tests is as ridiculous as you saying two kids who started third grade should be scoring the same.
When 80% of the children are scoring a D or an F on a basic Ohio Achievement Assessment test, then we have more than a little tweaking to do around the edges.

And if you have been teaching these children and 80% of them are not able to pass the test with anything resembling comprehension of the subject at hand, you as a teacher have a serious problem.

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raises
#24586 May 3, 2013
Just Watching wrote:
<quoted text>
Teachers need to provide their input into the process, if it is reasonable and well thought out rather than a grab bag to simply enrich themselves, then the teachers will have a real stake in their future. The teaches would then be able to mold that future to better serve all involved from teaches to children to parents to community that funds the entire affair.
It has become the time for the teachers to take back control of their profession from the professional labor salespeople, aka, union leadership at the local, state, and national level.
Now there is actually something we agree upon. Teachers need to provide their input in the process. But again, it will be accomplished by BOTH sides working together.

And it is time for the BOE to take back control of their local schools from the Tea Party and statewide education movements that have basically become anti-teacher.

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