Our recommendation: Springboro voters should say 'yes' the first time to school levies

Feb 5, 2008 Full story: Dayton Daily News 31,261

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Just Watching

Cleveland, OH

#24524 May 1, 2013
raises wrote:
<quoted text>
So then again, using your logic and argument and so eloquent use of a dictionary to define "raise" and not "pay raise" would you not agree that a large majority of teachers have not had a pay raise in two years,versus the one you keep claiming?
Raise is a raise is a raise.

If your pay is more than it was before you got a raise.

The market of supply and demand will ultimately decide who gets what.

In our instance the princes and princesses of the ball are the special education teachers, they make more than everyone regardless of years of seniority.
raises

Springboro, OH

#24525 May 1, 2013
Just Watching wrote:
<quoted text>
Raise is a raise is a raise.
If your pay is more than it was before you got a raise.
The market of supply and demand will ultimately decide who gets what.
In our instance the princes and princesses of the ball are the special education teachers, they make more than everyone regardless of years of seniority.
And don't answer the question that was posed. You have a habit of doing that when you know the answer contradicts what you have been stating. Then you use flowery verbiage to try to cover up for not wanting to answer the question. Special education teachers? Where in the world did that come from?

Its tough when the statistics don't always support your statements. Its really ok - you can't be right about everything 100% of the time. You are human....I would presume?
Just Watching

Cleveland, OH

#24526 May 1, 2013
If you make more than you did before your got a raise.

At least that is how it works in the private sector.

You can look and see who is perceived as most important and judging by the number and the pay scale they must be worth a good deal more than a plain teacher.
Just Watching

Cleveland, OH

#24527 May 1, 2013
raises wrote:
<quoted text>
Love the slight of hand.......a raise is commonly known as when you get a certain rate per hour or percentage above what you made last year and it compounds into future years. You added in the 1% "bonus" to the annual salary. Wonder why the BOE didn't do that when they listed it? Because it isn't a RAISE. Shocking but they actually showed it correctly.
And to indulge you ever so slightly, even using your logic, then they haven't had a "raise" under your criteria in two years (FY12-FY13)....
Nice try though.
If you made more in FY 2012 than you made in FY 2011, then you got a raise.
raises

Springboro, OH

#24528 May 1, 2013
Just Watching wrote:
<quoted text>
If you made more in FY 2012 than you made in FY 2011, then you got a raise.
What about FY 12 to FY 13? You claim no raises for only a year. If you made $40,000 from 2011-12 and $40,000 in 2012-2013, that's two years. Boy I hope you don't keep your company's books. Wont go back on that statement, will ya? Yep, cause you were wrong with your statement. Its ok to admit a mistake. Really, it is.
Just Watching

Cleveland, OH

#24529 May 1, 2013
raises wrote:
<quoted text>
What about FY 12 to FY 13? You claim no raises for only a year. If you made $40,000 from 2011-12 and $40,000 in 2012-2013, that's two years. Boy I hope you don't keep your company's books. Wont go back on that statement, will ya? Yep, cause you were wrong with your statement. Its ok to admit a mistake. Really, it is.
No such luck amigo, if you made more money in FY 2012 than you made in FY 2011 you got a raise.

And that statement holds true.

But seeing how 2000 plus kids still did not receive the education the taxpayers are funding, maybe we need to look at that again until all kids are passing the curriculum.

Paying people more to produce consistently bad results is subsidizing failure.

We can, and need to do better for the sake of all of the children in this community.

To do anything less is unconscionable.
raises

Springboro, OH

#24530 May 1, 2013
Just Watching wrote:
<quoted text>
No such luck amigo, if you made more money in FY 2012 than you made in FY 2011 you got a raise.
And that statement holds true.
But seeing how 2000 plus kids still did not receive the education the taxpayers are funding, maybe we need to look at that again until all kids are passing the curriculum.
Paying people more to produce consistently bad results is subsidizing failure.
We can, and need to do better for the sake of all of the children in this community.
To do anything less is unconscionable.
Wow. Its good to know we have the only infallable person living right here in the school district!
questions more questions

Franklin, OH

#24531 May 1, 2013
raises wrote:
<quoted text>
What about FY 12 to FY 13? You claim no raises for only a year. If you made $40,000 from 2011-12 and $40,000 in 2012-2013, that's two years. Boy I hope you don't keep your company's books. Wont go back on that statement, will ya? Yep, cause you were wrong with your statement. Its ok to admit a mistake. Really, it is.
How is it two years? For your claim to be true the person would have had to make 40k also for 2010-11. Here is an example for you.
2010-11 39k
2011-12 40k (raise in salary over previous year)
2012-13 40k
You can see the person actually received a raise in salary for the 2011-12 year over the previous years 2010-11 salary. That leaves you with only one year of no increase in salary.
For your statement to be true:
2009-2010 39k
2010-11 40k (raise in salary over previous year)
2011-12 40k no raise
2012-13 40k no raise.
That is three years at the same salary.... but only two years with no raise in salary.
As for lump sum payments. They have been around in the private sector for many years. They are used to keep the base salary scale from escalating. Some benefits are tied to the base salary and it keeps the costs lower. It also as you correctly stated stops the compounding effect.
I only have one big question on this subject of salary. Many started out posting no raises in salary for 4 years straight and now it seems to be down to one year. Which is it? If a salary is increased through a percentage raise or lump sum which makes the salary greater than the previous year thats an increase in salary ( commonly called a raise in annual salary). If the lump sum goes away thats a decrease in salary unless it is offset by a percentage increase. If the total salary stays the same year to year we can all agree thats a freeze (or no raise in salary). So who has been posting the correct information based on the salary data?
Answer

Upper Sandusky, OH

#24532 May 1, 2013
At schools, just like at Union Run factories, there is a salary schedule. The annual "raise" is called a step increase, because you move over a step on the schedule. The only people who do not benefit are those who are "stepped out", meaning that they are at the top of the salary schedule.

So a "step" is an increase, but not a raise, per se.
Hey Numbnuts

Norwalk, OH

#24533 May 1, 2013
raises wrote:
<quoted text>
What about FY 12 to FY 13? You claim no raises for only a year. If you made $40,000 from 2011-12 and $40,000 in 2012-2013, that's two years. Boy I hope you don't keep your company's books. Wont go back on that statement, will ya? Yep, cause you were wrong with your statement. Its ok to admit a mistake. Really, it is.
Hard to say the year is not over yet.
questions more questions

Franklin, OH

#24534 May 1, 2013
Answer wrote:
At schools, just like at Union Run factories, there is a salary schedule. The annual "raise" is called a step increase, because you move over a step on the schedule. The only people who do not benefit are those who are "stepped out", meaning that they are at the top of the salary schedule.
So a "step" is an increase, but not a raise, per se.
Any increase in your hourly pay or salary pay for whatever reason is a raise in salary. Even a lump sum (called signing bonus in some union factories) increases the pay for that year. To be claiming no raises for four years is to imply their w2's for the past 4 years is exactly the same..
questions more questions

Franklin, OH

#24535 May 1, 2013
Answer wrote:
At schools, just like at Union Run factories, there is a salary schedule. The annual "raise" is called a step increase, because you move over a step on the schedule. The only people who do not benefit are those who are "stepped out", meaning that they are at the top of the salary schedule.
So a "step" is an increase, but not a raise, per se.
Even at Gm, the UAW's contract shows that new hires start out at a lower level than longer term employees then each year get a "step" or raise until after 4 years they hit the regular max rate. After that the hourly rates go up based on the percentage increase per year negotiated in the contract or you may receive a lump sum (GM calls them signing bonus's) or a combination.

Lets ignore the bad economic years that we have been going through. In normal times are step increase the only increase teachers ever get? Or do they get percentage increases in addition to step raises? In addition has any teacher in Springboro actually had their pay cut from year to year. In other words is the w2 amount lower than a previous year?
Convert

Lebanon, OH

#24536 May 1, 2013
questions more questions wrote:
<quoted text>
Even at Gm, the UAW's contract shows that new hires start out at a lower level than longer term employees then each year get a "step" or raise until after 4 years they hit the regular max rate. After that the hourly rates go up based on the percentage increase per year negotiated in the contract or you may receive a lump sum (GM calls them signing bonus's) or a combination.
Lets ignore the bad economic years that we have been going through. In normal times are step increase the only increase teachers ever get? Or do they get percentage increases in addition to step raises? In addition has any teacher in Springboro actually had their pay cut from year to year. In other words is the w2 amount lower than a previous year?
Well we can always look at how that panned out fr the GM workers in Dayton and elsewhere.
You get more money you got a raise, whatever you want to call the increase. No wonder our kids don't do well on tests, the teachers don't even know what a raise is.
Answer

Fredericktown, OH

#24537 May 1, 2013
I totally agree. More money than the previous year is a raise, no matter what you call it.
Genius

Dayton, OH

#24538 May 1, 2013
Just Watching wrote:
<quoted text>
Raise is a raise is a raise.
If your pay is more than it was before you got a raise.
The market of supply and demand will ultimately decide who gets what.
In our instance the princes and princesses of the ball are the special education teachers, they make more than everyone regardless of years of seniority.
A bonus is a bonus and not a raise. Let's get that clear. If I need to go into greater detail for you just let me know. I'm sure it's not that as simple for you to figure out as it is for others.
questions more questions

Franklin, OH

#24539 May 1, 2013
Convert wrote:
<quoted text>
Well we can always look at how that panned out fr the GM workers in Dayton and elsewhere.
You get more money you got a raise, whatever you want to call the increase. No wonder our kids don't do well on tests, the teachers don't even know what a raise is.
Yes, it didn't work out too well for GM did it? At least it didn't work until Uncle George and Uncle Barrack bailed them out. I brought GM up because the poster I was addressing tried to compare the steps in the teachers union with so called steps in a union factory. GM's contract was the easiest to find.I cannot find any union factory that provides as many step raises for their employees as the teachers union receive. There may be a union factory like that, I just haven't found it.

That was the thrust of my responses. Too many people are playing games claiming a step is not a raise. To most people if your salary goes up in comparison to the previous years salary (regardless of the reason: step, percentage, lump sum) you have received a raise in your salary for that year.
I am not making a judgement on teachers pay either way. I am only addressing the semantics used by some posters who try and claim that even though their salary as shown on their w2 increased, they received no raise.
questions more questions

Franklin, OH

#24540 May 1, 2013
Genius wrote:
<quoted text>
A bonus is a bonus and not a raise. Let's get that clear. If I need to go into greater detail for you just let me know. I'm sure it's not that as simple for you to figure out as it is for others.
Thanks for your post.. The Goalpost has now successfully been moved.. KUDOS!

I do not know if Just Watching wants to address your moving of the goalposts with BONUSes or not.

But if I take it up be prepared to explain bonus, lump sum, percentage increase and how union contracts are measured .(hint: its the total compensation increase over the life of the contract).
Or do you want to move it on to executive compensation where actual bonuses or more common? Maybe athletic contracts we can take up next which is a whole different animal.
Or should we just skip to the usual name calling and save time?(that was a joke)
questions more questions

Franklin, OH

#24541 May 1, 2013
Or do you want to move it on to executive compensation where actual bonuses are more common?

sorry about having "or" instead of "are" in previous post. Edited out a sentence and screwed it up
raises

Springboro, OH

#24542 May 1, 2013
questions more questions wrote:
<quoted text>
Any increase in your hourly pay or salary pay for whatever reason is a raise in salary. Even a lump sum (called signing bonus in some union factories) increases the pay for that year. To be claiming no raises for four years is to imply their w2's for the past 4 years is exactly the same..
To steal Just Watching's eloquent usage of the internet dictionary, I found the following:

"A bonus is a gift to reward performance, paid either by a private employer or by a government - something given or paid over and above what is due."

Hmmmm, doesn't sound like a raise in salary to me. In fact, your buddies on the BOE even list it as "bonus". I wonder why?
questions more questions

Franklin, OH

#24543 May 1, 2013
raises wrote:
<quoted text>
To steal Just Watching's eloquent usage of the internet dictionary, I found the following:
"A bonus is a gift to reward performance, paid either by a private employer or by a government - something given or paid over and above what is due."
Hmmmm, doesn't sound like a raise in salary to me. In fact, your buddies on the BOE even list it as "bonus". I wonder why?
My buddies on the BOE? Funny. and the attacks begin..hehehehe
Not having the actual contract wording in front of me I do not know if the actual contract calls it a bonus or lump sum payment. Each contract is worded different in different professions. Obviously I accept your definition of a bonus being over and above what is due.. now answer me this... if a contract states that a specific lump sum percentage or bonus is to be paid to all employees:Is it over and above what is due? Obviously it is due by nature of the contract language. So how can it be over and above what is due?

The lump sums are given in lieu of a percentage increase. They are sometimes called bonuses to make employees feel better about getting screwed on the paltry or lacking percentage increases.
An executive getting a bonus is not a guaranteed bonus. Sometimes their contracts have stock options written in based on performance of the company. Sometimes a board of Directors will award a Bonus over and above anything that is already due in the executives contract because of outstanding performance. Athletes try to get as much up front cash and it is called a signing bonus or guaranteed up front money. It is not over and above what is due (it is in the contract after all and due to them legally) Better to have the cash now than it is to sign a long term contract thats not guaranteed.

But back to your main point, using your definition of over and above what is due, If the bonus or lump some is already in the contract and is legally obligated to be paid.. It is not by your own definition over and above what is due. By definition and contractual obligations it is due.

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