Our recommendation: Springboro voters...

Our recommendation: Springboro voters should say 'yes' the first time to school levies

There are 32000 comments on the Dayton Daily News story from Feb 5, 2008, titled Our recommendation: Springboro voters should say 'yes' the first time to school levies. In it, Dayton Daily News reports that:

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borobeef

Cleveland, OH

#24198 Apr 12, 2013
Fat Chance wrote:
This whole process has been pitiful. The push back, the vileness, the denial, the abject hatred have all soured me on my faith in these people who lead these organizations. I have little trust that my efforts are actually being used the way they say they are. It makes me want to puke, I bet that number is north of a million. I go to Centerville's School House Park and wonder why Springboro does not have anything like this given the amount of resources we provide, now I know, its because people are being allowed to rob us blind.
I like the transparency project, but when will it apply to these clubs raising all this money in the dark? I agree with Mr. Wiedeman, 10,000 eyes watching the pot greatly reduces monkey business.
Would you also agree that the springboro board of education members should publicly release their tax returns as well? So the 10,000 eyes watching can be assured our school "leadership" doesn't have any conflicts of interest with charter schools?
Who Cares

Cincinnati, OH

#24199 Apr 12, 2013
Out of Towner wrote:
<quoted text>
DO SOME RESEARCH AND FIND OUT WHY THE BOOSTERS DID NOT MAKE A PUBLIC STATEMENT AT THE TIME OF DISCOVERY. ALSO, GET THE REAL FACTS ON WHO DISCOVERED, HOW IT WAS HANDLED, AND WHY. THE ANSWERS TO THE DISCOVERY MIGHT NOT INCLUDE SCHOOL BOARD MEMBERS. IT MAY JUST BE THE SCHOOL BOARD MEMBERS GRABBED THE HEADLINE. FIND OUT FOR YOURSELF AND DO YOUR OWN HOMEWORK. THE ANSWERS MAY NOT BE WHAT SOME THINK OR HAVE BEEN BLINDLY LED BY THE NOSE TO BELIEVE.
Who cares who gets the credit?

The facts are clear. For 20 years this citizen (who is inducted into the hall of fame) was stealing and cheating and now has been flushed out of sewer just like all big old stinking rats eventually do. Even so, no matter how much you argue, there is simply no boro way to do WRONG the right way.

School board member Don Miller complied with this wrong doing of the school athletic director raising these pay to play costs; and Mr. Miller is the board member who voted Yes to the pay to play fees in revenge against parents for failing to pass the school levy. The athletic director is resigned his employment position;
Mr. Miller should respectively resign his elected position, based on his failure as board representative, to put our children's best interest first with every decison made and every vote cast.
Mr. Miller has recently stated that he believed his job as an elected board representative is to protect the public schools; and we all know that means protection of union jobs, even at the cost of our students future.
borobeef

Cleveland, OH

#24200 Apr 12, 2013
Just Watching wrote:
<quoted text>
We have had this problem for years, no one addresses the issue of 2000 plus kids not getting the education the taxpayers are funding. The system papers over these kids lack of knowledge with semantics to make it sound like progress is being made. In actuality, we are regressing for many children from third grade onward.
Until the professional educators in this school system accept the fact that 32% on a math test is not PROFICIENT, the children will continue to pay the price.
Doug-do you think the 2000 kids you say aren't thriving need more individual attention? Are you willing to pay for more intervention specialists? Have you taken your son or daughter to Sylvan or have you considered dedicating a few hours a week to work with them at home after dinner? Is it possible not every student cares how well they do on a test? And that's not a teacher's fault. Is it possible not every child has the intellectual capacity to score ag the top? Is it possible some students experience test anxiety so standardized tests aren't an accurate measure for them?
Question

Cincinnati, OH

#24201 Apr 12, 2013
borobeef wrote:
<quoted text>
Doug-do you think the 2000 kids you say aren't thriving need more individual attention? Are you willing to pay for more intervention specialists? Have you taken your son or daughter to Sylvan or have you considered dedicating a few hours a week to work with them at home after dinner? Is it possible not every student cares how well they do on a test? And that's not a teacher's fault. Is it possible not every child has the intellectual capacity to score ag the top? Is it possible some students experience test anxiety so standardized tests aren't an accurate measure for them?
and is it possible that borobeef has the intellectual capacity to just shut up this mindless babble-dribble? that would be great.
Question

Cincinnati, OH

#24202 Apr 12, 2013
borobeef wrote:
<quoted text>
Would you also agree that the springboro board of education members should publicly release their tax returns as well? So the 10,000 eyes watching can be assured our school "leadership" doesn't have any conflicts of interest with charter schools?
are you trying to be funny? surely you are not so stupid as t think that anyone of normal smarts would agree with anything said by one appearing to be so ignorant of everything as borobeef
Math Major

Columbus, OH

#24203 Apr 12, 2013
borobeef wrote:
<quoted text>
Would you also agree that the springboro board of education members should publicly release their tax returns as well? So the 10,000 eyes watching can be assured our school "leadership" doesn't have any conflicts of interest with charter schools?
as soon as you release yours
Math Major

Columbus, OH

#24204 Apr 12, 2013
borobeef wrote:
<quoted text>
Doug-do you think the 2000 kids you say aren't thriving need more individual attention? Are you willing to pay for more intervention specialists? Have you taken your son or daughter to Sylvan or have you considered dedicating a few hours a week to work with them at home after dinner? Is it possible not every student cares how well they do on a test? And that's not a teacher's fault. Is it possible not every child has the intellectual capacity to score ag the top? Is it possible some students experience test anxiety so standardized tests aren't an accurate measure for them?
I agree with Just Watching more than one third of our kids can't all just be dumb. Teach them what they are supposed to learn and I bet the test results will show that.
Just Watching

Cleveland, OH

#24205 Apr 12, 2013
borobeef wrote:
<quoted text>
Doug-do you think the 2000 kids you say aren't thriving need more individual attention? Are you willing to pay for more intervention specialists? Have you taken your son or daughter to Sylvan or have you considered dedicating a few hours a week to work with them at home after dinner? Is it possible not every student cares how well they do on a test? And that's not a teacher's fault. Is it possible not every child has the intellectual capacity to score ag the top? Is it possible some students experience test anxiety so standardized tests aren't an accurate measure for them?
I don't buy your argument it's the kids fault. I don't buy your argument that their are over 2000 plus families who don't care about their kid's education. I do believe that the state has lowered the bar so much it has become a joke. Real learning and achievement is what is needed.

These are the results necessary to be considered Excellent with Distinction or rated as an A level school in the state of Ohio.

I believe we can do much better than this and should demand as much from our children and teachers.

When 80% of the 8th graders taking this test, fail this test, I think we have a problem that must be fixed.

Now which teachers need a raise because they are not paid enough given the results we are enjoying?

The ones making over $30/hour or the ones making over $63/hour or the ones in between?

This is how much a teacher in the Springboro School District actually makes per hour.

$36,500 +$5110 the taxpayer picks up for your retirement fund /1350 hours =$30.82/hour
$48,000 +$6720 the taxpayer picks up for your retirement fund/1350 hours =$40.53/hour
$60,000 +$8400 the taxpayer picks up for your retirement fund/1350 hours =$50.66/hour
$75,000 +$10,500 the taxpayer picks up for your retirement fund/1350 hours =$63.33/hour

And this is what we receive in return after 8 years in our school system,
80% scoring a D or F on the Ohio Achievement Assessment test.

8th Grade 2011-2012 Ohio Achievement Assessment Tests Results.
.
Math .......50 possible points on the test
.
.
This is the low bar the state sets for every school in Ohio so even the urban schools can pass something.

State Rating System and distribution of students for the 8th grade
.
Limited.......... 3 Students
Limited.......... 20% was the Average score for this group
Limited..........definition--0 -10 correct answers =(0-20% correct)
.
Basic..........25 Students
Basic ..........27% was the Average score for this group
Basic..........definition--11- 15 correct answers =(22-30% correct)
.
Proficient........174 Students
Proficient........47% was the Average score for this group
Proficient.........definition- -16-29 correct answers =(32-58% correct)
.
Accelerated.....159 Students
Accelerated.....67% was the Average score for this group
Accelerated.....definition--30 -36 correct answers =(60-72% correct)
.
Advanced........77 Students
Advanced........85% was the Average score for this group
Advanced........definition--37 -50 correct answers =(74-100% correct)

.
Applying Mr. Malone's same grading system used for assigning percentages to grades earned in the college credit program (PSEO)
.
F.....Below 62.99% correct answers.......239 Students
Percentage of Students.....55% receiving F

D..... 63%- 74.99% correct answers......108 Students
Percentage of Students.....25% receiving D

C......75%- 84.99% correct answers........49 Students
Percentage of Students.....11% receiving C

B..... 85%- 92.99% correct answers........36 Students
Percentage of Students.....8% receiving B

A..... 93% correct answers and above.....6 Students
Percentage of Students.....1% receiving A

With Mr. Malone's scale of actual grading, we see that 80% of the children who took the Ohio Achievement Assessment Math Test are not getting the education the taxpayers are funding?

Again, who is underpaid for the above results?
Just Watching

Cleveland, OH

#24206 Apr 12, 2013
Beef, can you explain to the great unwashed what is meant by OVERLOAD pay?

Is it what I think it means that teachers will get an extra $15-$20,000 a year if they have more than 20 kids in a class? And this is on top of the 20% pay raise you want?

When I was going to school many years ago, 28 kids in a classroom was considered a very small class. The overwhelming majority of mine had 30-36 in them routinely. Our teachers at the time also did not have computers, but rather recorded grades in a grading book each day. At the end of the grading period they would get an adding machine and tally the numbers to arrive at a final grade. They would then record that grade by hand on each child's report card. I never recall a single teacher having an aide or assistant in the classroom.

And I can flat out guarantee you that 95% or better of our 8th grade class passed the math test. 2+2 still equals 4, always has and always will. Math today is no harder than it was in my day, in fact it seems easier because they provide you with the needed formulas and a calculator to take the tests.

We luckily had neither.
Just Watching

Cleveland, OH

#24207 Apr 12, 2013
Out of Towner wrote:
<quoted text>
DO SOME RESEARCH AND FIND OUT WHY THE BOOSTERS DID NOT MAKE A PUBLIC STATEMENT AT THE TIME OF DISCOVERY. ALSO, GET THE REAL FACTS ON WHO DISCOVERED, HOW IT WAS HANDLED, AND WHY. THE ANSWERS TO THE DISCOVERY MIGHT NOT INCLUDE SCHOOL BOARD MEMBERS. IT MAY JUST BE THE SCHOOL BOARD MEMBERS GRABBED THE HEADLINE. FIND OUT FOR YOURSELF AND DO YOUR OWN HOMEWORK. THE ANSWERS MAY NOT BE WHAT SOME THINK OR HAVE BEEN BLINDLY LED BY THE NOSE TO BELIEVE.
It got uncovered because the Budget and Finance Committee was doing its job and doggedly pursuing answers on sports funding. Luckily for all of us Mr. Petroni and Mr. Rigano persisted despite continual push back, vitriol, attacks on their character and intentions, and blatant stonewalling by the Boosters and some of their misguided and mislead supporters.

I recall a Save Our Sports rally at North Park that sought to cast aspersions and a fog of obfuscation upon the investigation. Look back on you tube for Ms Carlisle's and Ms. Christian's pertinent remarks attempting to divert the conversation with straight forward mendacity and innuendo.



Save Our Sports from cuts in funding by the BOE?

More like let's keep the looting going?
Just Watching

Cleveland, OH

#24208 Apr 13, 2013
This rally featured a few speakers, Ms Christian's theme was a clairvoyant demonstration whereby she could read between the lines and interpret what Mr. Petroni and Mr Rigano were really saying each time they made a statement. It was incredibly interesting.

The final speaker was a gentleman who made the point that if we wanted a great sport's program we were going to have to pay for it ourselves. He proclaimed himself to be one who had earlier opposed the levy campaigns, but his wife had convinced him of the error of his ways and now he was a solid supporter and encouraged all the rest to do the same.

In the end it came down to "it was Petroni and Rigano's fault" we did not have enough money.

They somehow failed to mention that it was really the lax organizational controls of the boosters and the schools boards of the past that allowed for the looting of our hard earned funds.

In my opinion the man got us for over $1,000,000 over his 20 year tenure.

The forensic accountants can document a paper trail from just 2004 - June 2012 that involves $439,000. That comes to about $55,000 per year just in checks he wrote to cash or to himself.

What that total does not account for is any missing cash. The booster's primary source of cash is through the operation of the concession stands. Each year rain or shine from 2008-20011 the concession stands would put $35-40,000 in the booster accounts. All of this money came to them by way of cash purchases. Does anyone in their right mind believe that this man was not skimming the bags of uncounted money sitting on the kitchen table?

Ms. Carlisle and Ms Edwards both were on the board of the boosters. Ms Edwards was the president. Ms. Edwards forwarded the message encouraging everyone to attend the staged Save Our Sports rally at North Park. How did the print and television media get wind of this and why did they show up? Certainly both Ms. Carlisle and Ms. Edwards knew the trash they were peddling was not true.

The question begs itself, if the booster hierarchy knew the truth, why were they courting the media to promote outright lies and innuendo?
Racist

Yellow Springs, OH

#24209 Apr 13, 2013
Just Watching wrote:
<quoted text>
Or we can just do better on our own. We do not need the state to sanction our rise in the level of academic expectation we prefer.
Your suggestion that we sacrifice another batch of our children's education to the low expectation gods in Columbus is laughable.
Do a better job teaching and the kids will learn more and get more correct answers on the test thus raising the scores.
What we are doing now would be sterling in Dayton, but in Springboro, we expect more than 20% of our 8th graders to pass the math test.
Why would 20% in Dayton be sterling or acceptable in Dayton? Aren't all children the same? People eventually show their true colors and good thing Just Watching hids behind this title as it is apparent that he/she is a racist biggot(Just Watching are you Sonny?) You can argue all you want but there is NO excuse for these types of statements. You want to argue that all Springboro children are the same and "those 2000" should be at the top. So PLEASE answer why it's acceptable for Dayton children and not for Springboro children aren't they the same? Statements like yours are nothing more than steroptypical and racists! They also show just how uneducated you are. What will be more sickening is watching the spin you will try to put on this with all of your bogus post under different names in your defense. Just remember there is no defense for a racist biggot.
Where is the MONEY

United States

#24210 Apr 13, 2013
I agree with Just Watching, but you forgot to add the revenue from the Panther Store. What happened to those proceeds? The Boosters runs the Panther Store.

And what about the Coaches Camp and fund raiser money that went to the coaches own home addresses and bank accounts. Where is that money? Did that get magically transported to Tom Harves to steal?

Usually, if a theft occurs in a "real" company, or nonprofit, the Board Members are either charged with negligence or criminal behavior and removed from office. If not removed from their positions, they usually resign in shame for not doing their job. They don't blame other organizations (like the school board) for their own lack of supervision and internal controls.
Just Watching

Cleveland, OH

#24211 Apr 13, 2013
Racist wrote:
<quoted text>
Why would 20% in Dayton be sterling or acceptable in Dayton? Aren't all children the same? People eventually show their true colors and good thing Just Watching hids behind this title as it is apparent that he/she is a racist biggot(Just Watching are you Sonny?) You can argue all you want but there is NO excuse for these types of statements. You want to argue that all Springboro children are the same and "those 2000" should be at the top. So PLEASE answer why it's acceptable for Dayton children and not for Springboro children aren't they the same? Statements like yours are nothing more than steroptypical and racists! They also show just how uneducated you are. What will be more sickening is watching the spin you will try to put on this with all of your bogus post under different names in your defense. Just remember there is no defense for a racist biggot.
If you can't find an argument against the issue you are getting beat on, then the logical solution is to call your opponent racist.

Genius

Argue for me why 20% taking an Ohio Achievement Assessment test and passing in the 8th grade in Springboro is something to celebrate.

Are you telling me that is as good as our staff can muster?
Healthy Choice

Cincinnati, OH

#24212 Apr 13, 2013
boro beef wrote:
<quoted text>
Would you eat at a restaurant if the cooked refused to?
Our family has not only eaten at restaurants where we knew the cook REFUSED to eat, because of personal choice or personal dietary needs; but we have eaten food cooked at our friends house, where the COOK grilled great steaks; but chose not to eat steak because of personal tastes or personal dietary needs. Would you fire this employee just because his personal needs were met better by other choices of food?
Employees cooking in restaurants for a paycheck, or family members cooking at home to lovingly serve one another's favorite foods can have a wide range of reasons not to eat the same food they cook.
So, would you BULLY and RIDICULE the cook in your home who prepared your favorite meal for you, but then chose NOT to eat the same food, because of personal tastes or because it was not a healthy choice?
Avoid

Maineville, OH

#24213 Apr 13, 2013
Just Watching wrote:
<quoted text>
If you can't find an argument against the issue you are getting beat on, then the logical solution is to call your opponent racist.
Genius
Argue for me why 20% taking an Ohio Achievement Assessment test and passing in the 8th grade in Springboro is something to celebrate.
Are you telling me that is as good as our staff can muster?
Typical refuse to answer the question. I'll ask you why is 20% sterling for Dayton children and not for Springboro children? Please provide your logic to why it's good for those people.
Twp resident

Cleveland, OH

#24214 Apr 13, 2013
Not another tax wrote:
<quoted text>
YES!!!!!!!!!! It was the AD's job to do everything they could before approving the pay to play fees!!!!!!!!!!
I wonder what the folks that held the meeting at North Park think now.
You're absolutely correct about the legacy of that Our Scam meeting. Just for toots and giggles, a couple of folks from my neighborhood and I drove to North Park to listen in. The meeting at the ampitheater lasted no more than 45 minutes. But it was clear from about 10 minutes in that "desperation" was going to be the prevailing theme for the evening. Booster leader Suzanne Edwards didn't possess enough 'nads to show up. A coach speaker made some not so subtle hints in a side conversation that the Booster investigation probably was being expedited by certain board members. Tiffany Carlise made an idiot of our herself by making her plea "people, please attend bi-weekly BOE meetings" last between 10-15 minutes. Honestly it took all the fortitute we had to keep from bursting out in hysterics.
Straight to the Point

Cincinnati, OH

#24215 Apr 13, 2013
borobeef wrote:
<quoted text>
It's also hard when people won't face reality or take responsibility for helping their own children. The teachers cant raise your kids. Take the time to study with them. Help them with their homework. Meet their teachers. Ask their teachers what YOU can do to help your struggling student.
The shortest distance between two points is a straight line.

Why not cut out going the distance to the teacher and simply homeschool your struggling student?
Oh Yeah

Cincinnati, OH

#24216 Apr 13, 2013
Where is the MONEY wrote:
I agree with Just Watching, but you forgot to add the revenue from the Panther Store. What happened to those proceeds? The Boosters runs the Panther Store.
And what about the Coaches Camp and fund raiser money that went to the coaches own home addresses and bank accounts. Where is that money? Did that get magically transported to Tom Harves to steal?
Usually, if a theft occurs in a "real" company, or nonprofit, the Board Members are either charged with negligence or criminal behavior and removed from office. If not removed from their positions, they usually resign in shame for not doing their job. They don't blame other organizations (like the school board) for their own lack of supervision and internal controls.
Tiffany Carlisle should resign from the boosters board and step down in all other leadership roles in voluntary service where she has financial dealings. If this boosters scam was going on all these years right under her nose and she never sniffed it out, then one can only wonder "did she ...or did she not?"
Just Watching

Cleveland, OH

#24217 Apr 14, 2013
Avoid wrote:
<quoted text>
Typical refuse to answer the question. I'll ask you why is 20% sterling for Dayton children and not for Springboro children? Please provide your logic to why it's good for those people.
The greater question is why in the world would you not be outraged that only 20% of an entire 8th grade class of 438 kids can pass a basic math test?

91 kids out of 438 were able to pass.

And this is what we receive in return after 8 years in our school system, 80% scoring a D or F on the Ohio Achievement Assessment test.

8th Grade 2011-2012 Ohio Achievement Assessment Tests Results.
.
Math .......50 possible points on the test
.
.
This is the low bar the state sets for every school in Ohio so even the urban schools can pass something.

State Rating System and distribution of students for the 8th grade
.
Limited.......... 3 Students
Limited.......... 20% was the Average score for this group
Limited..........definition--0 -10 correct answers =(0-20% correct)
.
Basic..........25 Students
Basic ..........27% was the Average score for this group
Basic..........definition--11- 15 correct answers =(22-30% correct)
.
Proficient........174 Students
Proficient........47% was the Average score for this group
Proficient.........definition- -16-29 correct answers =(32-58% correct)
.
Accelerated.....159 Students
Accelerated.....67% was the Average score for this group
Accelerated.....definition--30 -36 correct answers =(60-72% correct)
.
Advanced........77 Students
Advanced........85% was the Average score for this group
Advanced........definition--37 -50 correct answers =(74-100% correct)

.
Applying Mr. Malone's same grading system used for assigning percentages to grades earned in the college credit program (PSEO)
.
F.....Below 62.99% correct answers.......239 Students
Percentage of Students.....55% receiving F

D..... 63%- 74.99% correct answers......108 Students
Percentage of Students.....25% receiving D

C......75%- 84.99% correct answers........49 Students
Percentage of Students.....11% receiving C

B..... 85%- 92.99% correct answers........36 Students
Percentage of Students.....8% receiving B

A..... 93% correct answers and above.....6 Students
Percentage of Students.....1% receiving A

With Mr. Malone's scale of actual grading, we see that 80% of the children who took the Ohio Achievement Assessment Math Test are not getting the education the taxpayers are funding?

Again, who is underpaid for the above results?

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