Our recommendation: Springboro voters should say 'yes' the first time to school levies

Feb 5, 2008 | Posted by: roboblogger | Full story: Dayton Daily News

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23,501 - 23,520 of 31,176 Comments Last updated Monday Aug 18
Get Real

Piqua, OH

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#23910
Mar 16, 2013
 
Free Market wrote:
I don't think teachers are afraid of the free market, they are afraid of elected BOE members who have never set foot in a school making million dollar decisions for them. Education is the only profession in the world that every major decision is made by an elected official with no education background, most of the times nutrionist and two guys who I really don't what their background is are making decisions for you guys.. Any person can get elected and that's the scary thing, not the free market. People with no educational background are driving the education reform of today. Gates and Amazon.com have a big say in what goes on and then they land these huge technology contracts that stuff their pockets.
The only thing the teachers of the SEA fear is the truth.
The Miller/Maney/Malone bully campaign attacking the personal character and professional expertise of our reform minded elected officials has failed to reverse to status quo business as ususal.
Curious

Dayton, OH

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#23911
Mar 17, 2013
 
Just Watching wrote:
<quoted text>
What does your answer have to do with the above?
Pretty simple question. Did you graduate from high school? Did you graduate from college? If so, where and what type of degree. Do you hold a graduate degree? I suspect no to many of these so why the angst. Get off the computer and get back into the classroom. It's not too late to make something of yourself. Go get a teaching license and work your magic on Springboro. Just please stay out of my town. Thanks
Facts

Dayton, OH

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#23912
Mar 17, 2013
 

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question wrote:
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On point 3 you claim that it costs 18000 to renew your teaching license every 5 years over 30 years. Are you claiming the 5 year license renewal costs 3000 dollars.
Cost of license renewal every five years is actually a little higher here is the breakdown.

I will use the cheapest tuition rate around Wright State $417 per hr.

Every five years required to take 6 semester hours (two classes) of graduate work.$417 x 6 =$2502

Average cost of books $350 for two classes.

I will do the more simple math for JW. Let's assume avg teacher takes two course the same nights M/W for one semester. Trip to WSU from Springboro is 50 miles round trip. 100 miles per week x 18 weeks = 1800. Let's assume you vehicle gets 30 mpg. 1800/30 = 60 gallons of gas. 60 x $3.50 a gallon =$210

ODE application fee for renewal =$250 per license additional fees are added for teachers with multiple licenses +$15 for fingerprinting. Avg for single license $265

Time = classroom, travel, studying, typing papers,..etc? Not sure? You can do your own figures what 10 classroom hours + study time outside of class is worth. JW most likely would want to figure below minimum wage so lets say $5 per hour. Lets figure average of additional 5 hours for travel time and course work. 15 per week.$75 x 18 weeks =$1350.

Tuition =$2502
Books =$350
Application renewal fees =$265
Time =$1350
Total =$4467 x five license renewals for 30 year career =$26,802.00.

These are today's figures we all know the cost of college education is increasing at a much higher rate than anything else. And please noticed for some of these I used much lower figures.

That's a lot for someone JW wants to pay $30,000,00 per year. Most teachers are already paying back student loans. I guess they can live in their parents basement for most of their career.

These are the facts about teachers that JW does not want everyone to know.
Just Watching

Cleveland, OH

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#23913
Mar 17, 2013
 
Curious wrote:
<quoted text>
Pretty simple question. Did you graduate from high school? Did you graduate from college? If so, where and what type of degree. Do you hold a graduate degree? I suspect no to many of these so why the angst. Get off the computer and get back into the classroom. It's not too late to make something of yourself. Go get a teaching license and work your magic on Springboro. Just please stay out of my town. Thanks
What was your simple question?
Just Watching

Cleveland, OH

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#23914
Mar 17, 2013
 

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Facts wrote:
<quoted text>
Cost of license renewal every five years is actually a little higher here is the breakdown.
I will use the cheapest tuition rate around Wright State $417 per hr.
Every five years required to take 6 semester hours (two classes) of graduate work.$417 x 6 =$2502
Average cost of books $350 for two classes.
I will do the more simple math for JW. Let's assume avg teacher takes two course the same nights M/W for one semester. Trip to WSU from Springboro is 50 miles round trip. 100 miles per week x 18 weeks = 1800. Let's assume you vehicle gets 30 mpg. 1800/30 = 60 gallons of gas. 60 x $3.50 a gallon =$210
ODE application fee for renewal =$250 per license additional fees are added for teachers with multiple licenses +$15 for fingerprinting. Avg for single license $265
Time = classroom, travel, studying, typing papers,..etc? Not sure? You can do your own figures what 10 classroom hours + study time outside of class is worth. JW most likely would want to figure below minimum wage so lets say $5 per hour. Lets figure average of additional 5 hours for travel time and course work. 15 per week.$75 x 18 weeks =$1350.
Tuition =$2502
Books =$350
Application renewal fees =$265
Time =$1350
Total =$4467 x five license renewals for 30 year career =$26,802.00.
These are today's figures we all know the cost of college education is increasing at a much higher rate than anything else. And please noticed for some of these I used much lower figures.
That's a lot for someone JW wants to pay $30,000,00 per year. Most teachers are already paying back student loans. I guess they can live in their parents basement for most of their career.
These are the facts about teachers that JW does not want everyone to know.
There are many degrees you can obtain from college that have a much lower return on investment than does an education degree. Fortunately you are not compelled by the government, nor anyone other than yourself, to stay with a job you find so incredibly unrewarding financially.

The number of struggling lawyers that fail to earn at least what you are proposing would stagger your imagination, yet each year the law schools across America pump out over 50,000 new grads per year. This for an industry with only a need for less than half that number. What happens to all those would be lawyers and their associated remuneration? They too have educational continuing education requirements.

Or how about all of those physicians who now labor as paid employees working for hospitals with quotas? After spending 12 years or so of post secondary education pursuing their MD, they graduate into a system that pays them $100,000 per year doing production work. You think you have education loans to pay off? You have already been working 7-8 years before they begin their first job. They also have continuing education requirements.

Your documentation should provide any young person viewing the profession as a future pause.
This is the type of information we need to share with out young people in ways they can understand.

A job pays what a job pays because the market has dictated how much that job is worth based upon a variety of factors and post secondary education is but one factor to be considered.

I do not believe you will find me stating how much a teacher should be paid because it is not up to a single individual to set the scale, but rather the entire market for your product.

Life is a dynamic enterprise, circumstances change with ever increasing rapidity. Education within the next decade will become almost unrecognizable to those of us who attended school in the 50's and 60's. New modes of information transfer will be taken advantage of to further reduce the cost of education. Bricks and mortar will surrender to wireless technology.

The future can be a scary place unless we embrace the changes to come and master them.
Again

Milford, OH

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#23915
Mar 17, 2013
 

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Just Watching wrote:
<quoted text>
There are many degrees you can obtain from college that have a much lower return on investment than does an education degree. Fortunately you are not compelled by the government, nor anyone other than yourself, to stay with a job you find so incredibly unrewarding financially.
The number of struggling lawyers that fail to earn at least what you are proposing would stagger your imagination, yet each year the law schools across America pump out over 50,000 new grads per year. This for an industry with only a need for less than half that number. What happens to all those would be lawyers and their associated remuneration? They too have educational continuing education requirements.
Or how about all of those physicians who now labor as paid employees working for hospitals with quotas? After spending 12 years or so of post secondary education pursuing their MD, they graduate into a system that pays them $100,000 per year doing production work. You think you have education loans to pay off? You have already been working 7-8 years before they begin their first job. They also have continuing education requirements.
Your documentation should provide any young person viewing the profession as a future pause.
This is the type of information we need to share with out young people in ways they can understand.
A job pays what a job pays because the market has dictated how much that job is worth based upon a variety of factors and post secondary education is but one factor to be considered.
I do not believe you will find me stating how much a teacher should be paid because it is not up to a single individual to set the scale, but rather the entire market for your product.
Life is a dynamic enterprise, circumstances change with ever increasing rapidity. Education within the next decade will become almost unrecognizable to those of us who attended school in the 50's and 60's. New modes of information transfer will be taken advantage of to further reduce the cost of education. Bricks and mortar will surrender to wireless technology.
The future can be a scary place unless we embrace the changes to come and master them.
The thing you again fail to mention, because you are who you are, is that the majority of these professions their employers pay for these continuing education requirements. School systems do not. You keep mentioning that a job pays what the market dictates, education is not a business therefore the market can't dictate their pay. We the tax payers pay their salaries and I would like to live in a district that understands how important schools are. You seem to keep focusing on how horrible your schools are and how greedy your teachers are. you keep telling people that if they don't like their job get a new one, well apparently you hate Springboro so leave.
Thanks for the support

Dayton, OH

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#23916
Mar 17, 2013
 

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Just Watching wrote:
<quoted text>
There are many degrees you can obtain from college that have a much lower return on investment than does an education degree. Fortunately you are not compelled by the government, nor anyone other than yourself, to stay with a job you find so incredibly unrewarding financially.
The number of struggling lawyers that fail to earn at least what you are proposing would stagger your imagination, yet each year the law schools across America pump out over 50,000 new grads per year. This for an industry with only a need for less than half that number. What happens to all those would be lawyers and their associated remuneration? They too have educational continuing education requirements.
Or how about all of those physicians who now labor as paid employees working for hospitals with quotas? After spending 12 years or so of post secondary education pursuing their MD, they graduate into a system that pays them $100,000 per year doing production work. You think you have education loans to pay off? You have already been working 7-8 years before they begin their first job. They also have continuing education requirements.
Your documentation should provide any young person viewing the profession as a future pause.
This is the type of information we need to share with out young people in ways they can understand.
A job pays what a job pays because the market has dictated how much that job is worth based upon a variety of factors and post secondary education is but one factor to be considered.
I do not believe you will find me stating how much a teacher should be paid because it is not up to a single individual to set the scale, but rather the entire market for your product.
Life is a dynamic enterprise, circumstances change with ever increasing rapidity. Education within the next decade will become almost unrecognizable to those of us who attended school in the 50's and 60's. New modes of information transfer will be taken advantage of to further reduce the cost of education. Bricks and mortar will surrender to wireless technology.
The future can be a scary place unless we embrace the changes to come and master them.
Then you obviously must support Springboro teachers getting a pay raise, since they are not paid what similar districts in the market pay. I'm glad you finally answered a question. It's good to see you can do more than just watch.
new to boro

Cleves, OH

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#23917
Mar 18, 2013
 

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Everyone, can we please get back to what our kids need? Teachers are important, but we're supposed to be talking about how to help our kids get a better education.
Just Watching

Cleveland, OH

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#23918
Mar 18, 2013
 

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Again wrote:
<quoted text>
The thing you again fail to mention, because you are who you are, is that the majority of these professions their employers pay for these continuing education requirements. School systems do not. You keep mentioning that a job pays what the market dictates, education is not a business therefore the market can't dictate their pay. We the tax payers pay their salaries and I would like to live in a district that understands how important schools are. You seem to keep focusing on how horrible your schools are and how greedy your teachers are. you keep telling people that if they don't like their job get a new one, well apparently you hate Springboro so leave.
You really don't understand how the rest of the world seems to work. If your employer is paying for something for you it is coming out of your end of the compensation pool. Employers are not stupid and know how many people are vying for the same slot and pay based upon supply and demand of a particular skill set they value.

If you are selling your skills, you are in business whether you like it or not. You are marketing a product, and that product happens to be your particular skill set. You would most certainly like someone to buy that product that you offer. It might not be and iphone5, but your skills are a marketable commodity that you wish to sell. If you value your skills higher than the market wishes to pay, you will be unemployed until the market rises to your level. If you were the only teacher available you would be able to command premier prices for your services, alas that is not the case.

I do not believe you will find many people in the community who do not value their schools. And I made no such assertions that teachers were greedy or our schools are horrible. Those appellations belong to you, not me.

What I have said is that teachers are paid like everyone else, they are not special and outside the market forces that equalize things for all professions. If pay were such a high priority on your list of items that make you happy, why are you not rushing to teach in urban schools of the area? They pay more than do a place like Springboro, the reason, of course, is the nature of the work and its circumstances.

The test scores would seem to indicate that our children are not doing as well as is being claimed by many in our school system.

My simple question becomes: "Why?"

Shall I produce the latest batch of test scores?

Tell the parents how 4 out of 5 children in the 8th grade scoring below 75% on the OAA Math test is Excellent with Distinction?(That is using the same criteria as Mr. Malone uses to translate college grades from the PSEO program into percentages so he can figure the student's GPA and class ranking)

Or how about just explaining to these parents how their child can live up to their potential while mastering the material at a D or F grade level.

The system, dear friend, is broke and needs to be fixed before we sacrifice another year of children on its alter.
Just Watching

Cleveland, OH

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#23919
Mar 18, 2013
 

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Thanks for the support wrote:
<quoted text>
Then you obviously must support Springboro teachers getting a pay raise, since they are not paid what similar districts in the market pay. I'm glad you finally answered a question. It's good to see you can do more than just watch.
I am watching a convoluted argument being attempted that has no basis in reality. An apt reality check would be the comparison of the unions in Detroit matching wages and raises for union workers at the Big Three plants. Ford, Chrysler, and GM were three distinctly different car companies with three distinctly different sets of operations and market shares. The spiraling upward of each companies labor and benefits costs ultimately proved ruinous for two out of the three.

While the Big Three were saddled with $2000 per car of phantom costs that added nothing to the perceived value of the vehicle, the foreign competitors put $2000 of actual product, engineering, and design into their cars. The market settled the argument when free people voted with their pocketbooks while choosing a car. Eventually the bloat of the union imposed cost structure broke the backs of those car companies.

Just because someone else wishes to do something incredibly stupid,(see many California municipalities for examples of crony unionism with crony governing bodies) does not require the residents of Springboro to follow them down the path toward unsustainable finances.

While we speak of the excellence of our teachers, I would like for them to reflect that excellence with children who are gaining real knowledge. Children who are able to take a test that measures content at their grade level and master such. Some of our teachers do an exceptional job in this arena, some do okay, and some don't get the job done, just like in the outside world.
Truth Be Told

Piqua, OH

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#23920
Mar 18, 2013
 

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Free Market wrote:
I don't think teachers are afraid of the free market, they are afraid of elected BOE members who have never set foot in a school making million dollar decisions for them. Education is the only profession in the world that every major decision is made by an elected official with no education background, most of the times nutrionist and two guys who I really don't what their background is are making decisions for you guys.. Any person can get elected and that's the scary thing, not the free market. People with no educational background are driving the education reform of today. Gates and Amazon.com have a big say in what goes on and then they land these huge technology contracts that stuff their pockets.
Unionman's projected belief, as shown through comments on this issue of increased taxes, reflects the unionmasters indoctrination of unionized politics of personal destruction to attack character of neighbors (who believe differently than union indoctrination politics) in their unionmasters severely misguided attempts to distract from the truth of the issues, and seeking to discredit those who are spreading the truth.

Unionman's comments on this blog hold true to their school of union indoctrination and domination, in the union's severely misguided attempts to silence all public opposition to union indoctrination; AND to take out of public office all elected officials, who hold true their beliefs of Fiscal Responsibility, Limited Govbernment, and Free Markets.
Truth

Dayton, OH

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#23921
Mar 18, 2013
 
Just Watching wrote:
<quoted text>
You really don't understand how the rest of the world seems to work. If your employer is paying for something for you it is coming out of your end of the compensation pool. Employers are not stupid and know how many people are vying for the same slot and pay based upon supply and demand of a particular skill set they value.
If you are selling your skills, you are in business whether you like it or not. You are marketing a product, and that product happens to be your particular skill set. You would most certainly like someone to buy that product that you offer. It might not be and iphone5, but your skills are a marketable commodity that you wish to sell. If you value your skills higher than the market wishes to pay, you will be unemployed until the market rises to your level. If you were the only teacher available you would be able to command premier prices for your services, alas that is not the case.
I do not believe you will find many people in the community who do not value their schools. And I made no such assertions that teachers were greedy or our schools are horrible. Those appellations belong to you, not me.
What I have said is that teachers are paid like everyone else, they are not special and outside the market forces that equalize things for all professions. If pay were such a high priority on your list of items that make you happy, why are you not rushing to teach in urban schools of the area? They pay more than do a place like Springboro, the reason, of course, is the nature of the work and its circumstances.
The test scores would seem to indicate that our children are not doing as well as is being claimed by many in our school system.
My simple question becomes: "Why?"
Shall I produce the latest batch of test scores?
Tell the parents how 4 out of 5 children in the 8th grade scoring below 75% on the OAA Math test is Excellent with Distinction?(That is using the same criteria as Mr. Malone uses to translate college grades from the PSEO program into percentages so he can figure the student's GPA and class ranking)
Or how about just explaining to these parents how their child can live up to their potential while mastering the material at a D or F grade level.
The system, dear friend, is broke and needs to be fixed before we sacrifice another year of children on its alter.
I believe in your previous post you mentioned how great the JH is doing under the current leadership and the districts high OGT scores are a result of the rigorous JH curriculum.
Just Watching

Cleveland, OH

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#23922
Mar 18, 2013
 
Truth wrote:
<quoted text>
I believe in your previous post you mentioned how great the JH is doing under the current leadership and the districts high OGT scores are a result of the rigorous JH curriculum.
Find that post for me so I can verify the date and it was actually my post and not a fool using my good name. New information continues to bubble slowly out of the district.
Truth

Dayton, OH

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#23923
Mar 18, 2013
 
Just Watching wrote:
OHIO GRADUATION TEST WEEK INFORMATION 1. THE OHIO GRADUATION TESTS WILL BE GIVEN NEXT WEEK TO ALL 10TH GRADERS AND THOSE UPPERCLASSMEN WHO HAVE YET TO PASS ALL 5 PARTS..... 2. ALL 9TH GRADERS WILL TAKE THE OHIO GRADUATION PRACTICE TESTS DURING THE SAME TIME PERIOD AS THE 10TH GRADERS ARE TAKING THE OGTS.... 3. THE TESTING SESSION IS 7:30AM--9:20AM....IF STUDENTS NEED MORE TIME, THEY WILL HAVE THE EXTRA TIME IN THE LIBRARY.....A MAXIMUM OF 2.5 HOURS IS PERMITTED ..... 4. UPPER CLASSMEN MUST REPORT TO SCHOOL BY 9:30AM......THEY SHOULD REPORT TO THE COMMONS UPON ARRIVAL.... 5. THE BELL SCHEDULE IS AS FOLLOWS: 7:15-STUDENTS MAY ENTER THE BUILDING AND REPORT TO THEIR ASSIGNED ROOMS 7:30-9:20 TESTING SESSION 9:30-TARDY BELL RINGS AND 1ST PERIOD STARTS 9:30-10:08 PERIOD 1 10:13-10:46 PERIOD 2 10:51-11:24 PERIOD 3 11:29-11:54 PERIOD 4 11:59-12:02 PERIOD 5 12:07-12:32 PERIOD 6 12:37-12:40 PERIOD 7 12:45-1:10 PERIOD 8 1:15-1:48 PERIOD 9 1:53-2:25 PERIOD 10 6. 10TH GRADERS WILL BE GIVEN DONUTS, JUICE, AND/OR MILK IN THE COMMONS BEFORE THE TESTING SESSION STARTS.....IT IS ONE WAY WE WISH THEM GOOD LUCK ON THEIR TESTS!! PLEASE CONTACT THE HIGH SCHOOL IF YOU HAVE ANY QUESTIONS.... RON MALONE
The high school takes but one test, no other achievement tests of any kind during four years of high school. The OGT, as you can see, will never be confused with an A/P exam. This test measures what a student has learned or not learned in grades 1-9. There are no mandatory tests at this time for Juniors or Seniors. So it is just about impossible to tell how good or bad things are going at the high school. My guess is the high school will be a reflection of the junior high and its curriculum.
Knew I would find it one minute the high OGT scores are a result or the JH curriculum and the next 4/5 are failing math in the JH? Make up your mind DB.
Just Watching

Cleveland, OH

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#23924
Mar 18, 2013
 
Truth wrote:
<quoted text>
Knew I would find it one minute the high OGT scores are a result or the JH curriculum and the next 4/5 are failing math in the JH? Make up your mind DB.
I know you have question in there somewhere, what would it be? If you can find it I will endeavor to answer.
truth to power

Girard, OH

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#23925
Mar 18, 2013
 

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Curious wrote:
<quoted text>
Pretty simple question. Did you graduate from high school? Did you graduate from college? If so, where and what type of degree. Do you hold a graduate degree? I suspect no to many of these so why the angst. Get off the computer and get back into the classroom. It's not too late to make something of yourself. Go get a teaching license and work your magic on Springboro. Just please stay out of my town. Thanks
You can't conjur up legitimate documentation to refute anything JW posted. So instead you resort to this shameless ad hominem attack? Priceless!
Just Watching

Cleveland, OH

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#23926
Mar 18, 2013
 

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Truth wrote:
<quoted text>
Knew I would find it one minute the high OGT scores are a result or the JH curriculum and the next 4/5 are failing math in the JH? Make up your mind DB.
Still waiting for your clarification on your post.

If you can find the question I will try and come up with the answer.

Or you could explain to all of us why you are not defining the classification of "Proficient" on the OGT.

A helpful tutelage from the Ohio Department of Education on the scales for the results on the Math test

Limited.........0-12 points..........0-25% correct on the test
Basic..........12.5-17.5 points.......26%-36% correct on the test
PROFICIENT...18-27 points..........37.5%-56% correct on the test
Accelerated...27.5-34 points..........57%-71% correct on the test
Advanced......34.5-48 points..........72%-100% correct on the test

This is not a difficult test, take it for yourself, it is on the ODE website.

http://www.ode.state.oh.us/GD/Templates/Pages...

Then wonder why after two years of preparation in our "college prep" high school, nearly 40% of the children taking this test score 75% or less, and still have not mastered basic math covering what should have been learned in grades 1-9. They even let a child use a calculator and provide a cheat sheet with all the necessary formulas required to answer the questions on the test.

Seriously, who wishes to defend labeling a student who has mastered less than 56% of the math material as "PROFICIENT"?

Only our high school administration team would sit in front of the cameras and present to the community 97.4% of our students taking the OGT were "PROFICIENT" and above. And then proceed to bask in the clapping and cheering from the union and the union supporters with a straight face.
poundsand

Miamisburg, OH

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#23927
Mar 19, 2013
 

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Just Watching wrote:
<quoted text>
... why after two years of preparation in our "college prep" high school, nearly 40% of the children taking this test score 75% or less, and still have not mastered basic math covering what should have been learned in grades 1-9. They even let a child use a calculator and provide a cheat sheet with all the necessary formulas required to answer the questions on the test.

Seriously, who wishes to defend labeling a student who has mastered less than 56% of the math material as "PROFICIENT"?

Only our high school administration team would sit in front of the cameras and present to the community 97.4% of our students taking the OGT were "PROFICIENT" and above. And then proceed to bask in the clapping and cheering from the union and the union supporters with a straight face.
I don't know about any other math classes but in my son's 7th grade math class the teacher constantly refers him to penda learning or study island web sites to work on math problems. The problem is, he hasn't even been 'taught' how to work the problems. The teacher expects the WEB SITE to do that. The teacher also posts videos but they aren't any better.

If this is what math 'teaching' is today it's no wonder they are "proficient".

And don't get me started on the constant use of 'open book' tests that are given in other subjects he takes...
Observer

Lebanon, OH

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#23928
Mar 19, 2013
 

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My kids hate study island, you just keep guessing until you get it right, there is no learning. They aren't teaching anyone anything and the teachers don't have to grade anything, it is done automatically. No wonder they love it so.
Just Watching

Dayton, OH

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#23929
Mar 19, 2013
 
truth to power wrote:
<quoted text>
You can't conjur up legitimate documentation to refute anything JW posted. So instead you resort to this shameless ad hominem attack? Priceless!
I's gots me GED. Andz me degree from a craker jack bocs

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