JW, it looks like certain natives may be getting a bit restless.<quoted text>
Are these facts as Just Watching New Carlisle said them factual? If not why not?
There are 31948 comments on the Dayton Daily News story from Feb 5, 2008, titled Our recommendation: Springboro voters should say 'yes' the first time to school levies. In it, Dayton Daily News reports that:
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#23897 Mar 15, 2013
#23898 Mar 15, 2013
Have you visited many other districts outside of Springboro lately? At this exact moment in time almost 60% of Ohio's public districts have been graded as either Excellent or Excellent with Distinction. People, it's all about perception!
Take a look at this link above. You'll see a map of Ohio with each school district color-coded with 5 designations - academic emergency, academic watch, continuous improvement, effective, excellent & excellent with distinction.
Closely examine the color-coding scheme, particularly the lightening of shades between between "effective" - "excellent", then a dramatic darkening to "excellent with distinction". This map has liberal bias written all over it. This map symbolizies the state of Ohio's perennial attempts in masking their overall embarrassment of the current collective pathetic state of Ohio's public schools.
Just Watching has done a great job in illustrating for us ad infinitum just how Ohio has lowered the bar for Springboro and all of Ohio's children. Our socialist president Barack Obama as well as many of our educators tell us Common Core is coming to save the day. Placed into the smallest of nutshells, Common Core is generally about a systematic dillution of student expectations in future curricula, all in the name of "racing to the top" (gag!) and achieving those federal *goals.
#23899 Mar 15, 2013
Beats me, I did not write nor claim this one. I cannot offer anything in this direction as I have no basis or knowledge here.
What I do know is that no one is forced into the teaching profession. All are free to come and go as they please if they do not find the work as personally or financially as rewarding as they would like.
#23900 Mar 15, 2013
I reported the facts and documented the sources based upon information provided by the Ohio Department of Education (ODE).
You are correct they do not look good, the system is failing the children and robbing them of the education they deserve.
As of this point in time I would have to say my research has been accurate because no one has refuted a bit of the data nor offered a plausible alternative explanation.
#23901 Mar 15, 2013
Maybe they think if they ignore the bad news it will go away and everything can go back to Candy and Roses.
#23902 Mar 15, 2013
If you don't have any defense for the data do the next best thing and attack the messenger. Maybe they think everybody is too stupid to keep looking at the bad numbers that reflect their work, and want to watch a car wreck instead
#23903 Mar 15, 2013
Just Watching wrote:
I think all teachers should make a minimum of $85,000.00.
What do you think a fair days wage for a fair days work is?
Fair to whom? Please define for me what you mean by the word fair.
I would NEVER SAY that all teachers should make a minimum of $85,000.
Someone doesn't even have the smarts to come up with their own name.
OK so that's not you that said: "I think all teachers should make a minimum of $85,000.00." you are saying it was someone else using the same name.
So what would you say the maximum a Springboro 5th grade teacher should be paid?
#23904 Mar 15, 2013
Ohio public school teachers should start around 30K - 35 K.
But the problem isn't so much with the level of starting salary as it is with seemingly uncontrolled pay increases which are regularly negotiated by teachers union thugs like Maney.
Principals and superintendents work too close to teachers to be impartial administrators of their pay increases. Hiring, firing and pay increases are business decisions. Business decisions need to be made by each district's board of education, with plenty of constructive input from parents, students and the general public, to where every board of education SHOULD owe their primary allegiance.
#23905 Mar 15, 2013
They should be paid what the market dictates, no more no less. Just like everyone else.
Ask all the men and women who used to work at the GM and Delphi plants around town how much they should be paid, see what kind of answer you get.
Then ask them how much they are paid now.
If their prices had been in line with their supply, those plants would still be here today.
Push the salaries high enough for certain individuals and you will find there is no money for others.
Teachers have a limited amount of resources to draw from in a community, once the well is tapped dry that is all she wrote.
The alternatives begin to kick in then, fewer teachers making more money, parents deciding that their children can do better elsewhere leave, and along with them go their tax support dollars. Less money available now for even fewer teachers, leads to more defections, which leads to fewer dollars available for even fewer teachers, rinse and repeat.
Take a look around the city of Dayton and see how well that union model worked out for everyone, not just the mighty union, but all the people who supported those plants.(There are the same number of auto plant jobs across the country as there used to be, they just don't happen to be in union dominated areas for a reason. People and their money have choices.)
Rinse and repeat
The market pays what the job is perceived as being worth, no more, no less over the long run.
Declare any number you wish, it will not sustain itself over the long haul unless the market forces dictate such.
#23906 Mar 15, 2013
Why are the unions so scared of the free market?
If employers do not meet their end of the bargain by providing competitive pay, benefits, and working conditions, that employer will soon find themselves with neither the quality or quantity of employees they desire.
The converse of that statement applies to the employees.
If the employees do no meet their end of the bargain by providing an up to date skill set, good work ethic, professional appearance, and market related wage and benefit demands, they will soon find themselves on the outside looking in.
Employers and employees are each engaged in the free market arena of competition with other employers and other job applicants for resources.
The old Soviet Union had full employment, but it was often not necessarily good employment. A worker went where they were assigned for the good of the party, whether or not they had any desire to perform such tasks as were assigned were of scant concern to those assigning.
In America, you have choices. If you don't like one set of circumstances, break out and seek another. Very seldom will you find people who will cater to your particular whims and wants.
#23907 Mar 15, 2013
I don't think teachers are afraid of the free market, they are afraid of elected BOE members who have never set foot in a school making million dollar decisions for them. Education is the only profession in the world that every major decision is made by an elected official with no education background, most of the times nutrionist and two guys who I really don't what their background is are making decisions for you guys.. Any person can get elected and that's the scary thing, not the free market. People with no educational background are driving the education reform of today. Gates and Amazon.com have a big say in what goes on and then they land these huge technology contracts that stuff their pockets.
#23908 Mar 15, 2013
According to unwritten & antiquated Ohio School Board Association standards, a board member's place is in the boardroom, not the classroom.
This is but one of the reasons why Springboro along with other Ohio districts have made the decisions to dump their OSBA memberships in favor of the much more progressive, pro-active OSBLC.
#23909 Mar 15, 2013
You are correct the free market elected the BOE we have today.
The free market chose their platform of LEVY ALTERNATIVES and BALANCED BUDGETS.
No one put a gun to anyone's head, in a competition of ideas the prevailed.
This BOE has balanced the budget for the next five years (not bad considering just a couple of years ago it was doom and gloom unless we forked over another $45 million tax dollars. I wonder often what would have become of that money and how soon they would be back for more.)
This BOE has reevaluated priorities and fixed things that needed fixing. Allocating resources to the children rather than to the adults.
I heard a woman speak of not upsetting the teachers with these bad test results and bad reports on our program of studies in the high school. Who would she say we address about these issues, the 8 year old child taking the test? Perhaps we should blame the students for not taking advantage of the superior program of studies developed by the principal at the High School.
The same High School principal that when queried why they had dumbed down the curriculum answered that they believed it was best for the students. The report by professional educators at the Warren County Education Services Center noted that the response flew in the face of the available data and research on the subject. The people who our Superintendent asked to do this review also reported that there was no available data or research to support such an nonsensical theory.
Each year that passes with our children falling further and further behind is another year of missed opportunities for our children's futures.
If the Warren County Education Services Center report from 2010 did not move the ball forward for our children, what makes anyone believe that the principal at the High School will be able to move the 2012 report and its recommendations forward.
Since the 2010 report came out 900 plus kids have gone through the high school, how many children do you believe benefitted from recommendations to improve the program of studies that were not implemented.
Read Page 10 of the report and look at the DECREASES in the program of studies from 2008.
DECREASES in the courses that would most improve a child's lot in life.
We are supposed to be a top notch educational facilities, why are we dumbing down the curriculum?
Those decisions were made by an all to acquiescent BOE in the past and a principal who lead the charge downhill.
The principal is scrambling to paste back the crumbling facade of success.
The old BOE members who failed to pursue their responsibility to the children and the community have been retired by the free market of ideas.
The only ones who pay the price for this type of incompetence are the children.
The administrators keep getting their paychecks regardless of what happens.
The retired board members go back to what they once did as if nothing happened.
The only ones who pay the price are the children.
#23910 Mar 16, 2013
The only thing the teachers of the SEA fear is the truth.
The Miller/Maney/Malone bully campaign attacking the personal character and professional expertise of our reform minded elected officials has failed to reverse to status quo business as ususal.
#23911 Mar 17, 2013
Pretty simple question. Did you graduate from high school? Did you graduate from college? If so, where and what type of degree. Do you hold a graduate degree? I suspect no to many of these so why the angst. Get off the computer and get back into the classroom. It's not too late to make something of yourself. Go get a teaching license and work your magic on Springboro. Just please stay out of my town. Thanks
#23912 Mar 17, 2013
Cost of license renewal every five years is actually a little higher here is the breakdown.
I will use the cheapest tuition rate around Wright State $417 per hr.
Every five years required to take 6 semester hours (two classes) of graduate work.$417 x 6 =$2502
Average cost of books $350 for two classes.
I will do the more simple math for JW. Let's assume avg teacher takes two course the same nights M/W for one semester. Trip to WSU from Springboro is 50 miles round trip. 100 miles per week x 18 weeks = 1800. Let's assume you vehicle gets 30 mpg. 1800/30 = 60 gallons of gas. 60 x $3.50 a gallon =$210
ODE application fee for renewal =$250 per license additional fees are added for teachers with multiple licenses +$15 for fingerprinting. Avg for single license $265
Time = classroom, travel, studying, typing papers,..etc? Not sure? You can do your own figures what 10 classroom hours + study time outside of class is worth. JW most likely would want to figure below minimum wage so lets say $5 per hour. Lets figure average of additional 5 hours for travel time and course work. 15 per week.$75 x 18 weeks =$1350.
Application renewal fees =$265
Total =$4467 x five license renewals for 30 year career =$26,802.00.
These are today's figures we all know the cost of college education is increasing at a much higher rate than anything else. And please noticed for some of these I used much lower figures.
That's a lot for someone JW wants to pay $30,000,00 per year. Most teachers are already paying back student loans. I guess they can live in their parents basement for most of their career.
These are the facts about teachers that JW does not want everyone to know.
#23913 Mar 17, 2013
What was your simple question?
#23914 Mar 17, 2013
There are many degrees you can obtain from college that have a much lower return on investment than does an education degree. Fortunately you are not compelled by the government, nor anyone other than yourself, to stay with a job you find so incredibly unrewarding financially.
The number of struggling lawyers that fail to earn at least what you are proposing would stagger your imagination, yet each year the law schools across America pump out over 50,000 new grads per year. This for an industry with only a need for less than half that number. What happens to all those would be lawyers and their associated remuneration? They too have educational continuing education requirements.
Or how about all of those physicians who now labor as paid employees working for hospitals with quotas? After spending 12 years or so of post secondary education pursuing their MD, they graduate into a system that pays them $100,000 per year doing production work. You think you have education loans to pay off? You have already been working 7-8 years before they begin their first job. They also have continuing education requirements.
Your documentation should provide any young person viewing the profession as a future pause.
This is the type of information we need to share with out young people in ways they can understand.
A job pays what a job pays because the market has dictated how much that job is worth based upon a variety of factors and post secondary education is but one factor to be considered.
I do not believe you will find me stating how much a teacher should be paid because it is not up to a single individual to set the scale, but rather the entire market for your product.
Life is a dynamic enterprise, circumstances change with ever increasing rapidity. Education within the next decade will become almost unrecognizable to those of us who attended school in the 50's and 60's. New modes of information transfer will be taken advantage of to further reduce the cost of education. Bricks and mortar will surrender to wireless technology.
The future can be a scary place unless we embrace the changes to come and master them.
#23915 Mar 17, 2013
The thing you again fail to mention, because you are who you are, is that the majority of these professions their employers pay for these continuing education requirements. School systems do not. You keep mentioning that a job pays what the market dictates, education is not a business therefore the market can't dictate their pay. We the tax payers pay their salaries and I would like to live in a district that understands how important schools are. You seem to keep focusing on how horrible your schools are and how greedy your teachers are. you keep telling people that if they don't like their job get a new one, well apparently you hate Springboro so leave.
#23916 Mar 17, 2013
Then you obviously must support Springboro teachers getting a pay raise, since they are not paid what similar districts in the market pay. I'm glad you finally answered a question. It's good to see you can do more than just watch.
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