Our recommendation: Springboro voters...

Our recommendation: Springboro voters should say 'yes' the first time to school levies

There are 31879 comments on the Dayton Daily News story from Feb 5, 2008, titled Our recommendation: Springboro voters should say 'yes' the first time to school levies. In it, Dayton Daily News reports that:

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city money

Springboro, OH

#23770 Mar 8, 2013
Just Watching wrote:
<quoted text>
Wrongo again, its a business, the motivation does not matter.
It might be a service, but its a business.
It takes money in, it hires people, it expends its resources.
If suddenly they have no income, they are our of business. No one works long for free and no one services places that don't pay their bills for long.
If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, looks like a duck, and smells like a duck, its probably a duck.
They are all a business.
And you have sullied your hands with the rest of us.
Well if it is a business, should we then compensate the employees as it were a private business? Should the CEO, i.e. Superintendent, be given performance bonuses? Incentive raises for meeting certain thresholds? I mean, what would a typical CEO be making in a $47 million private corporation? A lot more than the current Super makes I would imagine.

I believe you were asked before how much the employees should make and I don't believe you really gave an answer? What would you pay the CEO of a $47 million corporation? The VPs (i.e. Principals?)?
Private Sector

Dayton, OH

#23771 Mar 8, 2013
City Money - in a $47 million dollar privatley held company the CEO would most likely be the owner and would only make a salary if there was profit.
Just Watching

Cleveland, OH

#23772 Mar 8, 2013
You can have $47 million dollars in sales and still lose money, in the scale of things that is a small business. A good size one, but still a small business. Private Sector is correct in his assertion, the owner would make whatever the business made. He/she would be responsible for the success or failure, they would also most likely have a lot of skin in the game. If it fails they are the ones on the hook, if it succeeds they are the ones to reap the benefits.

It would also depend on many of the same sets of circumstances that I described earlier, they apply to all jobs.

It would also require that the individual be able to provide a quality product at the end of the production cycle that the consumers wish to purchase day in and day out.
You can't have a failure rate of 37% and stay in business very many places.
Remember the 2000 plus children who are not getting the knowledge the taxpayers have spent good money funding.
This Way or That

Piqua, OH

#23773 Mar 8, 2013
@ Just Watching post...
It is not the children who are failing, but the adults who are all complicit in supporting a system which consistently produces failure in the classroom. Masking it with happy sounding labels does not change the actual results nor the child's preparedness for the next level.

Springboro parents and voters are getting conflicting messages from the information about failing grades and Ohio standards rotten to the common core.

We are employing the highest paid superintendent ever with a full administrative staff going full force into implementing the common core standards.
How are we going to stop common core?
Isn't the only way to stop common core standards throughout public schools is to stop taking state and federal funds; isn't it the lure of another dollar for the teachers union the real prize being used by the federal government shoving and pushing public schools into the race to nowhere?
city money

Springboro, OH

#23774 Mar 8, 2013
Just Watching wrote:
You can have $47 million dollars in sales and still lose money, in the scale of things that is a small business. A good size one, but still a small business. Private Sector is correct in his assertion, the owner would make whatever the business made. He/she would be responsible for the success or failure, they would also most likely have a lot of skin in the game. If it fails they are the ones on the hook, if it succeeds they are the ones to reap the benefits.
It would also depend on many of the same sets of circumstances that I described earlier, they apply to all jobs.
It would also require that the individual be able to provide a quality product at the end of the production cycle that the consumers wish to purchase day in and day out.
You can't have a failure rate of 37% and stay in business very many places.
Remember the 2000 plus children who are not getting the knowledge the taxpayers have spent good money funding.
"$47 million in sales and still lose money is not the point." And I didn't say owner of a sole proprietorship - I said CEO of a corporation (which is what the schools would be under your definition of "business"). Typically, they continue to receive a salary even if the business loses money for a quarter, year, etc. And you bring up a very interesting point that I believe defeats your trying to describe the schools or government as a business - "production cycle that consumers WISH TO PURCHASE day in and day out." A business operates in a free enterprise whereby consumers have a choice to pick and choose what products they want to purchase. While I am confident I can assume that you would be for creating a free enteprise system for schools based on your previous posts, under the present system, the schools certainly are not in a free enteprise system and "consumers" do not have the freedom to choose.
You also make an argument that an owner of a business would "reap the benefits" or be the one "on the hook" if it fails. I am interested to hear how you would translate your description into our present school situation to show that the schools are a business....
Private Sector

Dayton, OH

#23775 Mar 8, 2013
You may be right. Just think how profitable a business could be if they had a monopoly in a certain area and the population of that area had to pay them even if they bought their product or not. Example all the kids from Boro that go to Dayton Christian, Alter, Bishop Fenwick, etc. Their parents still have to pay for their product.
With that said a 47m in sales Corp is not a big one and that CEO would not last as long as a underperforming teacher does.
When is the last time Boro terminated a teacher for performance? You can't tell me every single one is a top notch employee.
Our Money We Earned It

Piqua, OH

#23776 Mar 8, 2013
Whether our public schools are businesses or just
poor government mandated agendas; Springboro taxpayers cannot afford to invest more of our hard earned money into these now-proven rotten to the core failed practices of the common core standards. What about this important renewal levy coming up in November? Are we to just blindly trust the state and federal politicians with OUR money for OUR kids education? How do we get back local control of our $54 million dollars in school taxes? Will the superintendents' vision for the school year 2013-2014 have any influence on reversing our public schools race to nowhere, heading full force to the rotten core of low expectations for the future of our students?
Just Watchin

Lebanon, OH

#23777 Mar 8, 2013
city money wrote:
<quoted text>
"$47 million in sales and still lose money is not the point." And I didn't say owner of a sole proprietorship - I said CEO of a corporation (which is what the schools would be under your definition of "business"). Typically, they continue to receive a salary even if the business loses money for a quarter, year, etc. And you bring up a very interesting point that I believe defeats your trying to describe the schools or government as a business - "production cycle that consumers WISH TO PURCHASE day in and day out." A business operates in a free enterprise whereby consumers have a choice to pick and choose what products they want to purchase. While I am confident I can assume that you would be for creating a free enteprise system for schools based on your previous posts, under the present system, the schools certainly are not in a free enteprise system and "consumers" do not have the freedom to choose.
You also make an argument that an owner of a business would "reap the benefits" or be the one "on the hook" if it fails. I am interested to hear how you would translate your description into our present school situation to show that the schools are a business....
Anyone in this school district is free to send their children to the school of their choice. they may have to pay more, but the truth of the matter is they can send their child a charter school, a parochial school, a magnet school, or home school and the money would follow the child.
If you don't feel like you are competing for students and the tax dollars that follow them, you obviously did not listen to Mr. Malone selling the high school rather than PSEO.

There are alternative choices to public education and as people choose them, for whatever reason, the money slowly leaks away. It is incumbent upon all of us to make our school district the most attractive option available. Given the lack of performance in recent years on our state testing we have a long way to go to make good on that promise.

We have over 2000 children in this district that are simply not getting the education we promised and the taxpayers have funded.

Your final statement ignores the fact that if more money migrates from the district then less is available for everything in the budget. More money leaving also translates into fewer children to teach. Like a business beset by reduced operating income, cuts must be made to balance the revenues with the expenditures.

If on the other hand you had more parents wishing to attend our school system and paying the associated tuition, more money would be available for everything in the budget. Just like a real business.

You are under the misunderstanding that the school district employs you, they don't, your customers pay your salary. The school district is a mere conduit through which your customers funnel their cash. And your customers in this example are the parents of the children who receive a substandard education and the taxpayers who fund this operation. If they awaken to the fact, then no customers, no pay, no jobs.

I would recommend going on the offensive to help the community understand that a child getting less than half the answers correct on an assessment test is rated proficient. And under what standard of logic that would make any sense.

I would recommend going to the community and explaining how 80% of the 8th grade class is unable to master the Ohio Achievement Assessment in Math.

Just 20% of the 8th graders were able to get 3 out of 4 questions correct.
Tell the community how that is good for everyone and how we are doing better than the inner cities of Cincinnati, Cleveland, Columbus, or Dayton. That should provide some cold comfort when we know that just 20% of a class is getting the program correct.

While we have some very smart children in our district, we also have a very large amount that are not getting the education they were promised.
Get real

Springboro, OH

#23778 Mar 9, 2013
Just Wondering wrote:
<quoted text>
Sounds like the problem is in the Junior High. How come the only attacks seem to be on the high school? I've seen the district report card and the Junior High is like an anchor the high school pretty much carries the rest of the district. I read about Mr. Malone and what he's not doing, do not really see anything negative. How about Ms. Cook? The Junior High is a mess under her "lack" of leadership. Look at the report card the JH has the lowest scores. Why is she not under constant attack? Is it because she is one of the BOE lapdogs? Looks like many of the posters out here thrive on what the high school is not doing. If you really want to see it go down hill maybe we should promote Ms. Cook to replace Mr. Malone.
The State awarded the Junior High Excellent With Distinction. If you are not aware, that is the highest level ranking available. Don't take away the students' achievement in your efforts to defend the high school administration. Value added scoring which is a year's growth per child is expected. Junior high math scores are in the district's highest value added scores. Do your research before making personal attacks.
Reality Bytes

Piqua, OH

#23779 Mar 9, 2013
Get real wrote:
<quoted text>
The State awarded the Junior High Excellent With Distinction. If you are not aware, that is the highest level ranking available. Don't take away the students' achievement in your efforts to defend the high school administration. Value added scoring which is a year's growth per child is expected. Junior high math scores are in the district's highest value added scores. Do your research before making personal attacks.
Take your advice "Do your research before making personal attacks"
to your own Miller/Maney choir of union activists.

Miller/Maney, along with bad babb for boro bullies and bitter bowman bloggers continue their comunity-wide "personal attacks" on parents who are researching the facts; and refusing to accept business as usual by continuing these same old excellent with distinction failing practices for our children's future.
We are on our way, no turning back to status quo. BOE members and school administrators who disagree with our winning agenda of children first budgeting will just have to go.
Springboro reform-minded parents and taxpaying voters will not back down. No more school tax dollars wasted on status quo.
Just Watching

Cleveland, OH

#23780 Mar 9, 2013
The state plays semantic games with the children's future. The state substitutes pleasant and positive sounding euphemisms for actual achievement and in the process robs the student and the taxpayer who funds this scam.

While the state may have foisted another worthless Excellent with Distinction award upon our Junior High School, the factual data reveals anything but in Math.

These scores are not derived solely form the Junior High School, but are a result of a cumulative effort in each preceding grade. Each progressive year from the start of testing in the third grade, the math scores continue to sink year after year. This continual stepping down in achievement ultimately produces the 8th grade where 80% of the kids score BELOW 75% on an assessment test.

Let the readers decide if such "achievement" is really excellent with distinction.
.
.

8th Grade 2011-2012 Ohio Achievement Assessment Tests Results.
.
Math .......50 possible points on the test
.
.
State Rating System and distribution of students for the 8th grade
.
Limited.......... 3 Students
Limited.......... 20% was the Average score for this group
Limited..........definition--0 -10 correct answers =(0-20% correct)
.
Basic..........25 Students
Basic ..........27% was the Average score for this group
Basic..........definition--11- 15 correct answers =(22-30% correct)
.
Proficient........174 Students
Proficient........47% was the Average score for this group
Proficient.........definition- -16-29 correct answers =(32-58% correct)
.
Accelerated.....159 Students
Accelerated.....67% was the Average score for this group
Accelerated.....definition--30 -36 correct answers =(60-72% correct)
.
Advanced........77 Students
Advanced........85% was the Average score for this group
Advanced........definition--37 -50 correct answers =(74-100% correct)

.
Applying Mr. Malone's same grading system used for assigning percentages to grades earned in the college credit program (PSEO)
.
F.....Below 62.99% correct answers.......239 Students
Percentage of Students.....55% receiving F

D..... 63%- 74.99% correct answers......108 Students
Percentage of Students.....25% receiving D

C......75%- 84.99% correct answers........49 Students
Percentage of Students.....11% receiving C

B..... 85%- 92.99% correct answers........36 Students
Percentage of Students.....8% receiving B

A..... 93% correct answers and above.....6 Students
Percentage of Students.....1% receiving A
.
.
.
Is this the level of achievement to which we wish to aspire in Springboro?
.
Is this the best we are capable of given our resources?
.
Should we continue to allow the schools and the state to hide behind euphemisms rather than actual achievement?
.
Demand better, our children and taxpayers deserve a real return on our investment in our schools.
Grapevine Schooling

Piqua, OH

#23781 Mar 9, 2013
Just read in the March 7, 2013, issue of Springboro Sun "School employees agree to negotiations..."

Let's all shout out Thank You and Applause Applause to our SEA and SCEA for showing a willingness to work cooperatively to negotiate labor agreements that are financially sustainable...

"Because the Board of Education is elected to represent the community, "we will discuss the importance of transparency in the negotiations process for the benefit of the entire Springboro School community with the SEA and SCEA," said Jim Rigano, board vice president. "It is our hope that, with the assistance of the SEA and SCEA, a negotiations process that is open and transparent can be agreed upoin and fully communicated to the community."
-Springboro Sun, March 7, 2013.
Just Watching

Cleveland, OH

#23782 Mar 9, 2013
To win the education war in a global competition we must face a few facts.

1st is that we recruit a disproportionate share of our teachers from among the less able of the high school students who go to college. Not all, but a larger percentage than would warrant given all that is on the line for our country, come from weak academic backgrounds and abilities.

Fifty years and longer ago, we as a society were inadvertently rewarded with the discrimination and limitations women faced in the workplace at the time. As a result, we were blessed with the best and most talented women entering the teaching profession and the children in schools during that time frame benefitted immensely. That situation no longer exists in America.

2nd is that we tolerate an enormous amount of waste in the system, failing our students in the early years when the cost of doing the job right would be relatively low, and trying to remediate it later at much higher cost. Mr. Petrey's program of shifting resources to earlier years will pay huge dividends down the road if we do it correctly and in the right spirit.

3rd is that this inherently inefficient system has gotten progressively
more inefficient over time. While the standards movement has produced real gains, especially for minority students, in recent years, those gains have been leveling off, and the gains have been modest in relation to the increase in per pupil expenditures over the last thirty years. More money has not translated into better quality students at the end of the production tube.

4th is that the growing inequality in family incomes is contributing heavily to the growing disparities in student achievement. Parents who do not value education generally find that they are rewarded with limited opportunities to earn. Parents who pass onto their children a similar disdain for education also present them with a limited future.

5th is that we have failed to motivate most of our students to take tough courses and work hard, thus missing one of the most important drivers of success in the best-performing nations. While understanding the desire to repose during their victory lap of a senior year, it is a costly mistake for the entire system. Given a choice between hard work and taking it easy, human nature dictates the conservation of energy. We as adults need to begin acting like adults and imparting the hard earned wisdom of our age to these children. It won't matter that they hate you today, they will thank you for many more years down the road.

6th is that our teacher compensation system is designed to reward time in service, rather than to attract the best and brightest of our college students and reward the best of our teachers.

7th is that, too often, our testing system rewards students who will be good at routine work, while not providing opportunities for students to display creative and innovative thinking and analysis. That does not mean the death of rote learning of educational fundamentals. Without know their multiplication tables, math is infinitely more difficult at the higher levels. Not all that has preceded us is to be tossed in the ashcan, what works must be salvaged and enhanced.

8th is that, too often, we have built a bureaucracy in our schools in which, apart from the superintendent of schools, the people who have the responsibility do not have the power, and the people who have the power do not have the responsibility.

9th is that most of the people who will be in our teaching workforce are already in it, and if they cannot master the new literacy at high levels, it will not matter what we do in our schools
.

But the most important truth is none of these. It is that we do not need new programs, and we need less money than one might think.

The one thing that is indispensable is a new system.

The problem is not with our educators.

It is with the system in which they work.
Watching and Learning

Piqua, OH

#23783 Mar 9, 2013
@Just Watching
But the most important truth is none of these. It is that we do not need new programs, and we need less money than one might think.
The one thing that is indispensable is a new system.
The problem is not with our educators.
It is with the system in which they work.

Take us to your leader! We believe!
reality

Girard, OH

#23784 Mar 9, 2013
Watching and Learning wrote:
The problem is not with our educators.
It is with the system in which they work.
The next trick will be enlightening our educators of this fact.
Unfortunately, the lion's share of liberal educators have failed, or have refused to see the inherent flaws in our nation's education system. Could it be that a lot of educators personally place themselves a bit too close to these issues to be able to develop and possess clear, unbais opinions?


"The trick to forgetting the big picture is to look at everything close up"

-Chuck Palahniuk
Do You Understand

Piqua, OH

#23785 Mar 9, 2013
Get real wrote:
<quoted text>
The State awarded the Junior High Excellent With Distinction. If you are not aware, that is the highest level ranking available. Don't take away the students' achievement in your efforts to defend the high school administration. Value added scoring which is a year's growth per child is expected. Junior high math scores are in the district's highest value added scores. Do your research before making personal attacks.
Is the Illusion of Excellence Harmful?

Districts love to point to their fine report card rating as evidence of high performance. Real estate agents love to tout those excellent ratings as proof that a home in the community is a good value. But at some point, Ohioans may want to take a serious look at what is really happening in their school districts. Parents and taxpayers need to know that “excellent” may not be as advertised. It is a disservice to the general public, to parents and especially to children when we pretend that more and more districts are doing a stellar job, when they are not. The stakes are much higher than they are for 1st grade soccer players, who are all superstars. Policymakers must acknowledge that there are serious flaws in an evaluation system that says that the majority of districts are doing excellent work, when all of the data comparing Ohio students nationally and internationally paint a very different picture.

A major disconnect exists when Ohio’s standards suggest that 51.7% of 8th graders are performing at an accelerated or advanced level in reading and the national data suggest that only a small fraction of these 8th graders are anywhere near an advanced level.
Why no answers

Columbus, OH

#23786 Mar 9, 2013
Get real wrote:
<quoted text>
The State awarded the Junior High Excellent With Distinction. If you are not aware, that is the highest level ranking available. Don't take away the students' achievement in your efforts to defend the high school administration. Value added scoring which is a year's growth per child is expected. Junior high math scores are in the district's highest value added scores. Do your research before making personal attacks.
You asked for research and Just Watching provided some convincing info. Your response to that damning bit would be what?
Parent of Boro Grads

Girard, OH

#23787 Mar 10, 2013
truth to power wrote:
<quoted text>
If you don't like what's going on, I suggest you pack up and move. Change to the positive is almost never without some measure of pain along the way.
You move...we've been here for 20+ years and plan to stay. We have invested in this community. So have my neighbors who are responsible hardworking citizens that raised their children here too. AND...oh wait for it....enrolled their children IN Springboro Schools! How long have you lived here?
Get real

Springboro, OH

#23788 Mar 10, 2013
Why no answers wrote:
<quoted text>
You asked for research and Just Watching provided some convincing info. Your response to that damning bit would be what?
Thank you Mr. Board Member. It is time to stop hiding behind fake names and masks.
Get Real

Piqua, OH

#23789 Mar 10, 2013
Get real wrote:
<quoted text>
Thank you Mr. Board Member. It is time to stop hiding behind fake names and masks.
Oh Yeah, it IS time for Don Miller to reveal his true identity, since we all recognize Don Miller as Just a Lapdog sitting on the board 'barking' for the SEA to get a bigger 'bite' out of our children's portion of our school tax dollars.
Sorry, Don, no more money for union self-interests first--and no more pats on the head for board members promoting union thugs positioning themselves for greater negotiating power.

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