Our recommendation: Springboro voters...

Our recommendation: Springboro voters should say 'yes' the first time to school levies

There are 31883 comments on the Dayton Daily News story from Feb 5, 2008, titled Our recommendation: Springboro voters should say 'yes' the first time to school levies. In it, Dayton Daily News reports that:

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Really

Piqua, OH

#23750 Mar 7, 2013
Just Watching wrote:
<quoted text>
PSEO is paid for by the school district which get its funds from the state.
PSEO is the perfect vehicle to edge your child into the college environment while still under your tutelage and watchful eye.
As Mr. Malone mentioned at the board meeting a few weeks ago, the offer many electives and then look at filling whichever classes have the most interest.
I will have my kids take full advantage of the PSEO if they can but I am not above the hypocrisy that state money - our tax dollars - are paying for it and there are a lot of adults in the community whose children cannot take advantage of it.
As for the "perfect vehicle to edge your child into the college environment" statement, you are correct for those kids that can handle it. There are a lot of kids that cannot. For someone that continues to write about how many students are failing in the district you don't seem to care about them at the upper level. They need classes at the high school level that will challenge them and that they would be interested in - we cannot assume they should all just go to college early. Beside, I for one would like my child to get the most out of their high school years - they're only young once.
Lastly, as for the electives, I agree, if there are teachers to offer the elective classes and there are students that want to take the electives they will be offered. However, the HS is down to bare-bones in some of the subjects. There are NO teachers available to teach any electives unless you pull teachers from other subjects. I for one do not want an English teacher teaching math and vice versa.
Just Watching

Cleveland, OH

#23751 Mar 7, 2013
Really wrote:
<quoted text>
I will have my kids take full advantage of the PSEO if they can but I am not above the hypocrisy that state money - our tax dollars - are paying for it and there are a lot of adults in the community whose children cannot take advantage of it.
As for the "perfect vehicle to edge your child into the college environment" statement, you are correct for those kids that can handle it. There are a lot of kids that cannot. For someone that continues to write about how many students are failing in the district you don't seem to care about them at the upper level. They need classes at the high school level that will challenge them and that they would be interested in - we cannot assume they should all just go to college early. Beside, I for one would like my child to get the most out of their high school years - they're only young once.
Lastly, as for the electives, I agree, if there are teachers to offer the elective classes and there are students that want to take the electives they will be offered. However, the HS is down to bare-bones in some of the subjects. There are NO teachers available to teach any electives unless you pull teachers from other subjects. I for one do not want an English teacher teaching math and vice versa.
Your tax dollars are being spent on your child's education whether it be in the highs school or in the college classroom. The money follows the child regardless of where they are situated.
Which children cannot take advantage of this program? It is open to any child who qualifies academically.
At the upper level there remain a multitude of classes that would work wonders at reducing our remediation rate in college. It is up to the parents to make sure their children are, number one enrolled in such classes, and number two, doing the work required to get the most out of the class.
If you and your child agree to while away the hours of their senior year, go for it. But please do not force only that choice upon everyone else. The entire point of offering alternatives and options is for people to make their own choices and decisions that best fit within their social, economic, and academic situations.
If we lack the proper staffing (too many English teachers, not enough Math teachers) then that situation needs to be rectified. Resources must have proper allocation to do the job we wish them to do. Just keep in mind that our resource supply is not a never ending well, but a defined source with limits.
Just Sitting Around

Dayton, OH

#23752 Mar 7, 2013
Just Watching wrote:
<quoted text>
Where are they teaching? What are they teaching? What grade are they teaching? How good of a teacher are they? Who will they be teaching? Are they right out of school? Where do they live?(Chicago costs more to live in than say Van Wert, OH) What is the demand for that level teacher that you described in the place you also describe? How many teachers are applying for that job in that place you describe?
Give me a few more answers to the variable and let us see what we can do. The market will set the value of labor. If a person feels they are not paid enough, they are free to seek employment elsewhere in hopes of deriving that pay schedule that reflects their own self worth.
Teachers in Dayton public schools seem to be paid more than in Springboro, but I do not see a mad rush to transfer to the Dayton public schools. There must be other things that factor into the decision to accept one job over the other.
Money is rarely the only factor in the vast majority of economic decisions each of us make on a daily basis.
Money was the sole factor in Mrs. Kohls running up almost a million in debt than declaring bankruptcy.
Just Watching

Cleveland, OH

#23753 Mar 7, 2013
Question JW wrote:
I would like a dollar amount for the lowest teacher you describe and the highest, what do you think is fair?

Where are they teaching? What are they teaching? What grade are they teaching? How good of a teacher are they? Who will they be teaching? Are they right out of school? Where do they live?(Chicago costs more to live in than say Van Wert, OH) What is the demand for that level teacher that you described in the place you also describe? How many teachers are applying for that job in that place you describe?

Give me a few more answers to the variable and let us see what we can do. The market will set the value of labor. If a person feels they are not paid enough, they are free to seek employment elsewhere in hopes of deriving that pay schedule that reflects their own self worth.

Teachers in Dayton public schools seem to be paid more than in Springboro, but I do not see a mad rush to transfer to the Dayton public schools. There must be other things that factor into the decision to accept one job over the other.

Money is rarely the only factor in the vast majority of economic decisions each of us make on a daily basis.

Let me know when you get a chance to set the above parameters.
Just Watching

Dayton, OH

#23754 Mar 7, 2013
Really wrote:
<quoted text>
I will have my kids take full advantage of the PSEO if they can but I am not above the hypocrisy that state money - our tax dollars - are paying for it and there are a lot of adults in the community whose children cannot take advantage of it.
As for the "perfect vehicle to edge your child into the college environment" statement, you are correct for those kids that can handle it. There are a lot of kids that cannot. For someone that continues to write about how many students are failing in the district you don't seem to care about them at the upper level. They need classes at the high school level that will challenge them and that they would be interested in - we cannot assume they should all just go to college early. Beside, I for one would like my child to get the most out of their high school years - they're only young once.
Lastly, as for the electives, I agree, if there are teachers to offer the elective classes and there are students that want to take the electives they will be offered. However, the HS is down to bare-bones in some of the subjects. There are NO teachers available to teach any electives unless you pull teachers from other subjects. I for one do not want an English teacher teaching math and vice versa.
Do not worry our plan is to eventually eliminate HS and send them straight into PSEO. Then we can close the HS and get rid of the entire staff. Just think no new taxes forever!!
Truth

Dayton, OH

#23755 Mar 7, 2013
Just Watching wrote:
Question JW wrote:
I would like a dollar amount for the lowest teacher you describe and the highest, what do you think is fair?
Where are they teaching? What are they teaching? What grade are they teaching? How good of a teacher are they? Who will they be teaching? Are they right out of school? Where do they live?(Chicago costs more to live in than say Van Wert, OH) What is the demand for that level teacher that you described in the place you also describe? How many teachers are applying for that job in that place you describe?
Give me a few more answers to the variable and let us see what we can do. The market will set the value of labor. If a person feels they are not paid enough, they are free to seek employment elsewhere in hopes of deriving that pay schedule that reflects their own self worth.
Teachers in Dayton public schools seem to be paid more than in Springboro, but I do not see a mad rush to transfer to the Dayton public schools. There must be other things that factor into the decision to accept one job over the other.
Money is rarely the only factor in the vast majority of economic decisions each of us make on a daily basis.
Let me know when you get a chance to set the above parameters.
Money was the sole factor in Mrs. Kohls running up almost a million in debt than declaring bankruptcy.
Question JW

Oxford, MI

#23756 Mar 7, 2013
Just Watching wrote:
<quoted text>
Everything is a business.
Churches, hospitals, "non-profits", local, state and federal government, schools
If you take in money, hire people, pay bills, then you are a business.
Everything is not a business that's the problem you think it is, a business brings in revenue Schools do not
Just Watching

Cleveland, OH

#23757 Mar 7, 2013
Question JW wrote:
<quoted text>
Everything is not a business that's the problem you think it is, a business brings in revenue Schools do not
Wrong again.

It hires people, pays bills, and provides a service to those within its defined district, it is paid by the taxpayers.

It's a business, like it or not.
Just Watching

Cleveland, OH

#23758 Mar 7, 2013
Truth wrote:
<quoted text>
Money was the sole factor in Mrs. Kohls running up almost a million in debt than declaring bankruptcy.
Now, now, you have no idea what you are talking about or how things work.

I put together a primer for you to learn from.

Let me know how it goes after you have read up a little.

Not all debts are discharged. The debts discharged vary under each chapter of the Bankruptcy Code. Section 523(a) of the Code specifically excepts various categories of debts from the discharge granted to individual debtors. Therefore, the debtor must still repay those debts after bankruptcy. Congress has determined that these types of debts are not dischargeable for public policy reasons (based either on the nature of the debt or the fact that the debts were incurred due to improper behavior of the debtor, such as the debtor's drunken driving).

There are 19 categories of debt excepted from discharge under chapters 7, 11, and 12. A more limited list of exceptions applies to cases under chapter 13.

Generally speaking, the exceptions to discharge apply automatically if the language prescribed by section 523(a) applies. The most common types of nondischargeable debts are certain types of tax claims, debts not set forth by the debtor on the lists and schedules the debtor must file with the court, debts for spousal or child support or alimony, debts for willful and malicious injuries to person or property, debts to governmental units for fines and penalties, debts for most government funded or guaranteed educational loans or benefit overpayments, debts for personal injury caused by the debtor's operation of a motor vehicle while intoxicated, debts owed to certain tax-advantaged retirement plans, and debts for certain condominium or cooperative housing fees.

The types of debts described in sections 523(a)(2),(4), and (6)(obligations affected by fraud or maliciousness) are not automatically excepted from discharge. Creditors must ask the court to determine that these debts are excepted from discharge. In the absence of an affirmative request by the creditor and the granting of the request by the court, the types of debts set out in sections 523(a)(2),(4), and (6) will be discharged.

A slightly broader discharge of debts is available to a debtor in a chapter 13 case than in a chapter 7 case. Debts dischargeable in a chapter 13, but not in chapter 7, include debts for willful and malicious injury to property, debts incurred to pay non-dischargeable tax obligations, and debts arising from property settlements in divorce or separation proceedings. Although a chapter 13 debtor generally receives a discharge only after completing all payments required by the court-approved (i.e., "confirmed") repayment plan, there are some limited circumstances under which the debtor may request the court to grant a "hardship discharge" even though the debtor has failed to complete plan payments. Such a discharge is available only to a debtor whose failure to complete plan payments is due to circumstances beyond the debtor's control. The scope of a chapter 13 "hardship discharge" is similar to that in a chapter 7 case with regard to the types of debts that are excepted from the discharge. A hardship discharge also is available in chapter 12 if the failure to complete plan payments is due to "circumstances for which the debtor should not justly be held accountable."
profit

Springboro, OH

#23759 Mar 7, 2013
Just Watching wrote:
<quoted text>
Wrong again.
It hires people, pays bills, and provides a service to those within its defined district, it is paid by the taxpayers.
It's a business, like it or not.
Sorry, but a government school or any level of government is not a business. A business is profit motivated. A general governmental entity is (or should be) service motivated. It may do all the things you describe, i.e., pay bills, hires, people,etc., but the motivations are totally different and the outcomes are totally different.

And while a business may provide a service, its main goal to to make a profit. Not so with a government - its main goal should be to provide the service.
Just Watching

Cleveland, OH

#23760 Mar 7, 2013
profit wrote:
<quoted text>
Sorry, but a government school or any level of government is not a business. A business is profit motivated. A general governmental entity is (or should be) service motivated. It may do all the things you describe, i.e., pay bills, hires, people,etc., but the motivations are totally different and the outcomes are totally different.
And while a business may provide a service, its main goal to to make a profit. Not so with a government - its main goal should be to provide the service.
Wrongo again, its a business, the motivation does not matter.

It might be a service, but its a business.

It takes money in, it hires people, it expends its resources.

If suddenly they have no income, they are our of business. No one works long for free and no one services places that don't pay their bills for long.

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, looks like a duck, and smells like a duck, its probably a duck.

They are all a business.

And you have sullied your hands with the rest of us.
Truth

Dayton, OH

#23761 Mar 7, 2013
Just Watching wrote:
<quoted text>
Now, now, you have no idea what you are talking about or how things work.
I put together a primer for you to learn from.
Let me know how it goes after you have read up a little.
Not all debts are discharged. The debts discharged vary under each chapter of the Bankruptcy Code. Section 523(a) of the Code specifically excepts various categories of debts from the discharge granted to individual debtors. Therefore, the debtor must still repay those debts after bankruptcy. Congress has determined that these types of debts are not dischargeable for public policy reasons (based either on the nature of the debt or the fact that the debts were incurred due to improper behavior of the debtor, such as the debtor's drunken driving).
There are 19 categories of debt excepted from discharge under chapters 7, 11, and 12. A more limited list of exceptions applies to cases under chapter 13.
Generally speaking, the exceptions to discharge apply automatically if the language prescribed by section 523(a) applies. The most common types of nondischargeable debts are certain types of tax claims, debts not set forth by the debtor on the lists and schedules the debtor must file with the court, debts for spousal or child support or alimony, debts for willful and malicious injuries to person or property, debts to governmental units for fines and penalties, debts for most government funded or guaranteed educational loans or benefit overpayments, debts for personal injury caused by the debtor's operation of a motor vehicle while intoxicated, debts owed to certain tax-advantaged retirement plans, and debts for certain condominium or cooperative housing fees.
The types of debts described in sections 523(a)(2),(4), and (6)(obligations affected by fraud or maliciousness) are not automatically excepted from discharge. Creditors must ask the court to determine that these debts are excepted from discharge. In the absence of an affirmative request by the creditor and the granting of the request by the court, the types of debts set out in sections 523(a)(2),(4), and (6) will be discharged.
A slightly broader discharge of debts is available to a debtor in a chapter 13 case than in a chapter 7 case. Debts dischargeable in a chapter 13, but not in chapter 7, include debts for willful and malicious injury to property, debts incurred to pay non-dischargeable tax obligations, and debts arising from property settlements in divorce or separation proceedings. Although a chapter 13 debtor generally receives a discharge only after completing all payments required by the court-approved (i.e., "confirmed") repayment plan, there are some limited circumstances under which the debtor may request the court to grant a "hardship discharge" even though the debtor has failed to complete plan payments. Such a discharge is available only to a debtor whose failure to complete plan payments is due to circumstances beyond the debtor's control. The scope of a chapter 13 "hardship discharge" is similar to that in a chapter 7 case with regard to the types of debts that are excepted from the discharge. A hardship discharge also is available in chapter 12 if the failure to complete plan payments is due to "circumstances for which the debtor should not justly be held accountable."
Sounds like you know all too well. Which one are you? Either way you have mismanaged your money or lived well beyond you means. Either way you have burdened the courts that use my tax money. You should learn how to manage yourself good thing your household is not run like a business or you would be closed. I do not need to know any of these laws because I live within my means, and pay my bills on time.
Question JW

Milford, OH

#23762 Mar 7, 2013
Schools don't go out of business buddy, if they run out of money the state comes in and helps, schools don't close up. Businesses close up shop but schools don't. Therein lies the difference with your "logic". Now if you and your puppet masters can figure this out maybe Springboro won't become the next Little Miami Schools of Ohio.
Just Watching

Cleveland, OH

#23763 Mar 7, 2013
If one would look at the distribution of scores on the OAA test results over a period of time, one would discover a consistency in scoring in the first year of testing. In third grade roughly the same number of children score about the same in each of the five categories year in and year out.

3rd grade Math averages 2009-2010 through 2011-2012

Greater than 93% correct answers.....10% of the students
85-92.99%,........33% of the students
75-84.99%.........28% of the students
63-74.99%.........19% of the students
Less than 62.99%.........10% of the students

With each passing year a consistently good number of children move down the scale getting fewer and fewer questions correct on the OAA tests.

The culmination is the 8th grade test, which found the May 2012 results with 80% of the students scoring 75% or less.

Each year's test in each grade measures what a student had previously learned in the preceding grades as well as the grade in which they are currently enrolled. A student who consistently masters less than expected amounts of the material will fall further and further behind with each succeeding year.

It is not the children who are failing, but the adults who are all complicit in supporting a system which consistently produces failure in the classroom. Masking it with happy sounding labels does not change the actual results nor the child's preparedness for the next level.

Those adults of which I speak are comprised of the taxpayers and parents who have allowed ourselves to be hoodwinked by semantics. Our trust in the system is laudable, but does not allow us to abrogate our responsibilities in verifying its veracity or effectiveness.

The teachers and the administrators of the school district are also culpable because they know full well the meaning and definition of the semantic games being played with our children's future. It is with them that I am most disappointed both personally and professionally. While not all may have agreed with the system, none that I have seen have had the courage to confront this lunacy.

Mr. Petrey's first tiny steps in addressing this problem are being met with innuendo, smear, and resistance by a small, but vocal group within the community.

Those that support the status quo effectively promote a second class status for our children in the future.

What path do you suggest we take?
Just Watching

Cleveland, OH

#23764 Mar 7, 2013
Question JW wrote:
Schools don't go out of business buddy, if they run out of money the state comes in and helps, schools don't close up. Businesses close up shop but schools don't. Therein lies the difference with your "logic". Now if you and your puppet masters can figure this out maybe Springboro won't become the next Little Miami Schools of Ohio.
By your line of thinking, business don't close either. Instead new management or a new company comes in and takes their old customers by providing better service. The old employees are now employed by the the new company or are forced out to find new employment. Kind of like your scenario.

It's a business.

And a business where over 2000 of its product are failing basic achievement tests.

You work in the education industry, its a business.
Just Watching

Cleveland, OH

#23765 Mar 7, 2013
Truth wrote:
<quoted text>
Sounds like you know all too well. Which one are you? Either way you have mismanaged your money or lived well beyond you means. Either way you have burdened the courts that use my tax money. You should learn how to manage yourself good thing your household is not run like a business or you would be closed. I do not need to know any of these laws because I live within my means, and pay my bills on time.
It was for your edification, and you never know what the future holds.

You may seem healthy today, but inside a cancer may be growing undetected.

One just never knows what tomorrow may bring.
Just Watching

Cleveland, OH

#23766 Mar 7, 2013
Sad But True

Piqua, OH

#23767 Mar 8, 2013
Just Watching wrote:
<quoted text>
It was for your edification, and you never know what the future holds.
You may seem healthy today, but inside a cancer may be growing undetected.
One just never knows what tomorrow may bring.
It is sad, but true, that the public schools teachers union is the rotten cancer of greed for power and money that is killing our children's future. To the teachers union, education is all about power and money, and their priority is fighting against our kids' best interest to get control of both power and money.
How do parents and taxpayers cut this cancer of the teachers union out of our children's classrooms?
the core is rotten

Girard, OH

#23768 Mar 8, 2013
Any movement our Springboro BOE makes toward Common Core teaching standards should hardly be considered an "improvement".
Call / e-mail Springboro BOE members to encourage them to fight against further installation of damaging Common Core standards in Ohio. They, as well as all of Springboro need to stand up and fight to retain LOCAL control of our childrens educations!

http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/338428 ...

America’s downfall doesn’t begin with the “low-information voter.” It starts with the no-knowledge student.

For decades, collectivist agitators in our schools have chipped away at academic excellence in the name of fairness, diversity, and social justice.“Progressive” reformers denounced Western-civilization requirements, the Founding Fathers, and the Great Books as racist. They attacked traditional grammar classes as irrelevant in modern life. They deemed grouping students by ability to be bad for self-esteem. They replaced time-tested rote techniques and standard algorithms with fuzzy math, inventive spelling, and multicultural claptrap.

Under President Obama, these top-down mal-formers — empowered by Washington education bureaucrats and backed by misguided liberal philanthropists led by billionaire Bill Gates — are now presiding over a radical makeover of your children’s school curriculum. It’s being done in the name of federal “Common Core” standards that do anything but set the achievement bar high.

Common Core was enabled by Obama’s federal stimulus law and his Department of Education’s “Race to the Top” gimmickry. The administration bribed cash-starved states into adopting unseen instructional standards as a condition of winning billions of dollars in grants. Even states that lost their bids for Race to the Top money were required to commit to a dumbed-down and amorphous curricular “alignment.”

In practice, Common Core’s dubious “college-ready” and “career-ready” standards undermine local control of education, usurp state autonomy over curricular materials, and foist untested, mediocre, and incoherent pedagogical theories on America’s schoolchildren.

Over the next several weeks and months, I’ll use this column space to expose who’s behind this disastrous scheme in D.C. backrooms. I’ll tell you who’s fighting it in grassroots tea-party and parental revolts across the country from Massachusetts to Indiana, Texas, Georgia, and Utah. And most important, I’ll explain how this unprecedented federal meddling is corrupting our children’s classrooms and textbooks.

(cont.)
the core is rotten

Girard, OH

#23769 Mar 8, 2013
Michelle Malkin, cont.)

There’s no better illustration of Common Core’s duplicitous talk of higher standards than to start with its math “reforms.” While Common Core promoters assert their standards are “internationally benchmarked,” independent members of the expert panel in charge of validating the standards refute the claim. Panel member Dr. Sandra Stotsky of the University of Arkansas reported,“No material was ever provided to the Validation Committee or to the public on the specific college readiness expectations of other leading nations in mathematics” or other subjects.

In fact, Stanford University professor James Milgram, the only mathematician on the validation panel, concluded that the Common Core math scheme would place American students two years behind their peers in other high-achieving countries. In protest, Milgram refused to sign off on the standards. He’s not alone.

Professor Jonathan Goodman of New York University found that the Common Core math standards imposed “significantly lower expectations with respect to algebra and geometry than the published standards of other countries.”

Under Common Core, as the American Principles Project and Pioneer Institute point out, algebra I instruction is pushed to ninth grade, instead of eighth grade, when it is traditionally taught. Division is postponed from fifth to sixth grade. Prime factorization, common denominators, conversions of fractions and decimals, and algebraic manipulation are de-emphasized or eschewed. Traditional Euclidean geometry is replaced with an experimental approach that had not been previously pilot-tested in the U.S.

Ze’ev Wurman, a prominent software architect, electrical engineer, and longtime math-advisory expert in California and Washington, D.C., points out that Common Core delays proficiency with addition and subtraction until 4th grade and proficiency with basic multiplication until 5th grade, and skimps on logarithms, mathematical induction, parametric equations, and trigonometry at the high-school level.

I cannot sum up the stakes any more clearly than Wurman did in his critique of this mess and the vested interests behind it:

I believe the Common Core marks the cessation of educational standards improvement in the United States. No state has any reason left to aspire for first-rate standards, as all states will be judged by the same mediocre national benchmark enforced by the federal government. Moreover, there are organizations that have reasons to work for lower and less-demanding standards, specifically teachers unions’ and professional teacher organizations. While they may not admit it, they have a vested interest in lowering the accountability bar for their members.... This will be done in the name of ‘critical thinking’ and “21st-century” skills, and in faraway Washington, D.C., well beyond the reach of parents and most states and employers.

This is all in keeping with my own experience as a parent of elementary- and middle-school age kids who were exposed to “Everyday Math” nonsense. This and other fads abandon “drill and kill” memorization techniques for fuzzy “critical thinking” methods that put the cart of “why” in front of the horse of “how.” In other words: Instead of doing the grunt work of hammering times tables and basic functions into kids’ heads first, the faddists have turned to wacky, wordy non-math alternatives to encourage “conceptual” understanding — without any mastery of the fundamentals of math.

Common Core is rotten to the core. The corruption of math education is just the beginning.

http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/338428...

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