Our recommendation: Springboro voters should say 'yes' the first time to school levies

Feb 5, 2008 Full story: Dayton Daily News 31,302

Recommended local sites More... UD sports info, pictures and discussions Are you a UD sports fan? Whether you like basketball, volleyball, soccer, men's or women's teams -- Doesn't matter -- this site is for ... via Dayton Daily News

Full Story
the inside track

Girard, OH

#23748 Mar 7, 2013
Just Watching wrote:
Our parents never dreamed that we would end up competing with countries that could offer large numbers of highly educated workers willing to work long hours for low wages. But China and India are doing exactly that. Indeed, it turns out that China and India are only the tip of the iceberg. Whereas for most of the 20th century the United States could take pride in having the best-educated workforce in the world, that is no longer true. Over the past 30 years, one country after another has surpassed us in the proportion of their entering workforce with the equivalent of a high school diploma, and many more are on the verge of doing so. Thirty five years ago, the United States could lay claim to having 30 percent of the world’s population of college students. Today that proportion has fallen to 14 percent and is continuing to fall.
While our international counterparts are increasingly getting more education, their young people are getting a better education as well. American students and young adults place anywhere from the middle to the bottom of the pack in all three continuing comparative studies of achievement in mathematics, science, and general literacy in the advanced industrial nations.
While our relative position in the world’s education tables has
continued its long slow decline, the structure of the global economy has continued to evolve. Every day, more and more of the work that people do ends up in a digitized form. From X-rays used for medical diagnostic purposes, to songs, movies, architectural drawings, technical papers,
and novels, that work is saved on a hard disk
and transmitted instantly over the Internet to someone near or far who makes use of it in an endless variety of ways. Because of this is, a swiftly rising number of American workers at every skill level are in direct
competition with workers in every corner of the globe.
If someone can figure out the algorithm for a routine job, chances are that it is economic to automate it. Many good well-paying, middle-class jobs involve routine work of this kind and are rapidly being automated.
Because employers everywhere have access to a worldwide workforce composed of people who do not have to move to participate in work
teams that are truly global. Because this is so, a swiftly rising number of American workers at every skill level are in direct competition with workers in every corner of the globe. So it matters very much that, increasingly, it is
easier and easier for employers everywhere to get workers who are better skilled at lower cost than American workers.
Are we preparing our children for this world?
America's best retailer showed the rest of the world how to undercut American workers! Sam Walton's strategy from day numero uno was to undercut his competition on virtually item. He knew he would realize less profit per item. But he sold lots more volume, especially when word got around. Lower GP% meant he had to create a anti-debt strategy of expanding into lucrative markets outside Arkansas, eventually creating the Wal-Mart empire. Wal-Mart would have not been anywhere as successful had Walton not utilized cheap foreign labor to minimize and reduce production costs. Sam Walton died in 1992. If Walton were still alive, would he see America's awful foreign debt and terrible economic situation as being partly his fault? Who knows. I'll bet he'd tell all the welfare and disability slackers to get off their arses, finish their educations, get jobs, and get to work.

If our kids are going to compete with the rest of the world, the best place to start is by the establishment of after-school internships and apprecticeships starting in the 10th grade so our kids can have real-world perspectives of what any given field may be like after they graduate.
Just Watching

Cleveland, OH

#23749 Mar 7, 2013
Lurker wrote:
<quoted text>
The Five Year Forecast, approved by this board, shows us requesting a renewal levy. If the renewal levy doesn't pass, we go into deficit spending.
Better hope you made a better impression than you did last time a levy tried to pass around these parts.
Really

Piqua, OH

#23750 Mar 7, 2013
Just Watching wrote:
<quoted text>
PSEO is paid for by the school district which get its funds from the state.
PSEO is the perfect vehicle to edge your child into the college environment while still under your tutelage and watchful eye.
As Mr. Malone mentioned at the board meeting a few weeks ago, the offer many electives and then look at filling whichever classes have the most interest.
I will have my kids take full advantage of the PSEO if they can but I am not above the hypocrisy that state money - our tax dollars - are paying for it and there are a lot of adults in the community whose children cannot take advantage of it.
As for the "perfect vehicle to edge your child into the college environment" statement, you are correct for those kids that can handle it. There are a lot of kids that cannot. For someone that continues to write about how many students are failing in the district you don't seem to care about them at the upper level. They need classes at the high school level that will challenge them and that they would be interested in - we cannot assume they should all just go to college early. Beside, I for one would like my child to get the most out of their high school years - they're only young once.
Lastly, as for the electives, I agree, if there are teachers to offer the elective classes and there are students that want to take the electives they will be offered. However, the HS is down to bare-bones in some of the subjects. There are NO teachers available to teach any electives unless you pull teachers from other subjects. I for one do not want an English teacher teaching math and vice versa.
Just Watching

Cleveland, OH

#23751 Mar 7, 2013
Really wrote:
<quoted text>
I will have my kids take full advantage of the PSEO if they can but I am not above the hypocrisy that state money - our tax dollars - are paying for it and there are a lot of adults in the community whose children cannot take advantage of it.
As for the "perfect vehicle to edge your child into the college environment" statement, you are correct for those kids that can handle it. There are a lot of kids that cannot. For someone that continues to write about how many students are failing in the district you don't seem to care about them at the upper level. They need classes at the high school level that will challenge them and that they would be interested in - we cannot assume they should all just go to college early. Beside, I for one would like my child to get the most out of their high school years - they're only young once.
Lastly, as for the electives, I agree, if there are teachers to offer the elective classes and there are students that want to take the electives they will be offered. However, the HS is down to bare-bones in some of the subjects. There are NO teachers available to teach any electives unless you pull teachers from other subjects. I for one do not want an English teacher teaching math and vice versa.
Your tax dollars are being spent on your child's education whether it be in the highs school or in the college classroom. The money follows the child regardless of where they are situated.
Which children cannot take advantage of this program? It is open to any child who qualifies academically.
At the upper level there remain a multitude of classes that would work wonders at reducing our remediation rate in college. It is up to the parents to make sure their children are, number one enrolled in such classes, and number two, doing the work required to get the most out of the class.
If you and your child agree to while away the hours of their senior year, go for it. But please do not force only that choice upon everyone else. The entire point of offering alternatives and options is for people to make their own choices and decisions that best fit within their social, economic, and academic situations.
If we lack the proper staffing (too many English teachers, not enough Math teachers) then that situation needs to be rectified. Resources must have proper allocation to do the job we wish them to do. Just keep in mind that our resource supply is not a never ending well, but a defined source with limits.
Just Sitting Around

Dayton, OH

#23752 Mar 7, 2013
Just Watching wrote:
<quoted text>
Where are they teaching? What are they teaching? What grade are they teaching? How good of a teacher are they? Who will they be teaching? Are they right out of school? Where do they live?(Chicago costs more to live in than say Van Wert, OH) What is the demand for that level teacher that you described in the place you also describe? How many teachers are applying for that job in that place you describe?
Give me a few more answers to the variable and let us see what we can do. The market will set the value of labor. If a person feels they are not paid enough, they are free to seek employment elsewhere in hopes of deriving that pay schedule that reflects their own self worth.
Teachers in Dayton public schools seem to be paid more than in Springboro, but I do not see a mad rush to transfer to the Dayton public schools. There must be other things that factor into the decision to accept one job over the other.
Money is rarely the only factor in the vast majority of economic decisions each of us make on a daily basis.
Money was the sole factor in Mrs. Kohls running up almost a million in debt than declaring bankruptcy.
Just Watching

Cleveland, OH

#23753 Mar 7, 2013
Question JW wrote:
I would like a dollar amount for the lowest teacher you describe and the highest, what do you think is fair?

Where are they teaching? What are they teaching? What grade are they teaching? How good of a teacher are they? Who will they be teaching? Are they right out of school? Where do they live?(Chicago costs more to live in than say Van Wert, OH) What is the demand for that level teacher that you described in the place you also describe? How many teachers are applying for that job in that place you describe?

Give me a few more answers to the variable and let us see what we can do. The market will set the value of labor. If a person feels they are not paid enough, they are free to seek employment elsewhere in hopes of deriving that pay schedule that reflects their own self worth.

Teachers in Dayton public schools seem to be paid more than in Springboro, but I do not see a mad rush to transfer to the Dayton public schools. There must be other things that factor into the decision to accept one job over the other.

Money is rarely the only factor in the vast majority of economic decisions each of us make on a daily basis.

Let me know when you get a chance to set the above parameters.
Just Watching

Dayton, OH

#23754 Mar 7, 2013
Really wrote:
<quoted text>
I will have my kids take full advantage of the PSEO if they can but I am not above the hypocrisy that state money - our tax dollars - are paying for it and there are a lot of adults in the community whose children cannot take advantage of it.
As for the "perfect vehicle to edge your child into the college environment" statement, you are correct for those kids that can handle it. There are a lot of kids that cannot. For someone that continues to write about how many students are failing in the district you don't seem to care about them at the upper level. They need classes at the high school level that will challenge them and that they would be interested in - we cannot assume they should all just go to college early. Beside, I for one would like my child to get the most out of their high school years - they're only young once.
Lastly, as for the electives, I agree, if there are teachers to offer the elective classes and there are students that want to take the electives they will be offered. However, the HS is down to bare-bones in some of the subjects. There are NO teachers available to teach any electives unless you pull teachers from other subjects. I for one do not want an English teacher teaching math and vice versa.
Do not worry our plan is to eventually eliminate HS and send them straight into PSEO. Then we can close the HS and get rid of the entire staff. Just think no new taxes forever!!
Truth

Dayton, OH

#23755 Mar 7, 2013
Just Watching wrote:
Question JW wrote:
I would like a dollar amount for the lowest teacher you describe and the highest, what do you think is fair?
Where are they teaching? What are they teaching? What grade are they teaching? How good of a teacher are they? Who will they be teaching? Are they right out of school? Where do they live?(Chicago costs more to live in than say Van Wert, OH) What is the demand for that level teacher that you described in the place you also describe? How many teachers are applying for that job in that place you describe?
Give me a few more answers to the variable and let us see what we can do. The market will set the value of labor. If a person feels they are not paid enough, they are free to seek employment elsewhere in hopes of deriving that pay schedule that reflects their own self worth.
Teachers in Dayton public schools seem to be paid more than in Springboro, but I do not see a mad rush to transfer to the Dayton public schools. There must be other things that factor into the decision to accept one job over the other.
Money is rarely the only factor in the vast majority of economic decisions each of us make on a daily basis.
Let me know when you get a chance to set the above parameters.
Money was the sole factor in Mrs. Kohls running up almost a million in debt than declaring bankruptcy.
Question JW

Oxford, MI

#23756 Mar 7, 2013
Just Watching wrote:
<quoted text>
Everything is a business.
Churches, hospitals, "non-profits", local, state and federal government, schools
If you take in money, hire people, pay bills, then you are a business.
Everything is not a business that's the problem you think it is, a business brings in revenue Schools do not
Just Watching

Cleveland, OH

#23757 Mar 7, 2013
Question JW wrote:
<quoted text>
Everything is not a business that's the problem you think it is, a business brings in revenue Schools do not
Wrong again.

It hires people, pays bills, and provides a service to those within its defined district, it is paid by the taxpayers.

It's a business, like it or not.
Just Watching

Cleveland, OH

#23758 Mar 7, 2013
Truth wrote:
<quoted text>
Money was the sole factor in Mrs. Kohls running up almost a million in debt than declaring bankruptcy.
Now, now, you have no idea what you are talking about or how things work.

I put together a primer for you to learn from.

Let me know how it goes after you have read up a little.

Not all debts are discharged. The debts discharged vary under each chapter of the Bankruptcy Code. Section 523(a) of the Code specifically excepts various categories of debts from the discharge granted to individual debtors. Therefore, the debtor must still repay those debts after bankruptcy. Congress has determined that these types of debts are not dischargeable for public policy reasons (based either on the nature of the debt or the fact that the debts were incurred due to improper behavior of the debtor, such as the debtor's drunken driving).

There are 19 categories of debt excepted from discharge under chapters 7, 11, and 12. A more limited list of exceptions applies to cases under chapter 13.

Generally speaking, the exceptions to discharge apply automatically if the language prescribed by section 523(a) applies. The most common types of nondischargeable debts are certain types of tax claims, debts not set forth by the debtor on the lists and schedules the debtor must file with the court, debts for spousal or child support or alimony, debts for willful and malicious injuries to person or property, debts to governmental units for fines and penalties, debts for most government funded or guaranteed educational loans or benefit overpayments, debts for personal injury caused by the debtor's operation of a motor vehicle while intoxicated, debts owed to certain tax-advantaged retirement plans, and debts for certain condominium or cooperative housing fees.

The types of debts described in sections 523(a)(2),(4), and (6)(obligations affected by fraud or maliciousness) are not automatically excepted from discharge. Creditors must ask the court to determine that these debts are excepted from discharge. In the absence of an affirmative request by the creditor and the granting of the request by the court, the types of debts set out in sections 523(a)(2),(4), and (6) will be discharged.

A slightly broader discharge of debts is available to a debtor in a chapter 13 case than in a chapter 7 case. Debts dischargeable in a chapter 13, but not in chapter 7, include debts for willful and malicious injury to property, debts incurred to pay non-dischargeable tax obligations, and debts arising from property settlements in divorce or separation proceedings. Although a chapter 13 debtor generally receives a discharge only after completing all payments required by the court-approved (i.e., "confirmed") repayment plan, there are some limited circumstances under which the debtor may request the court to grant a "hardship discharge" even though the debtor has failed to complete plan payments. Such a discharge is available only to a debtor whose failure to complete plan payments is due to circumstances beyond the debtor's control. The scope of a chapter 13 "hardship discharge" is similar to that in a chapter 7 case with regard to the types of debts that are excepted from the discharge. A hardship discharge also is available in chapter 12 if the failure to complete plan payments is due to "circumstances for which the debtor should not justly be held accountable."
profit

Springboro, OH

#23759 Mar 7, 2013
Just Watching wrote:
<quoted text>
Wrong again.
It hires people, pays bills, and provides a service to those within its defined district, it is paid by the taxpayers.
It's a business, like it or not.
Sorry, but a government school or any level of government is not a business. A business is profit motivated. A general governmental entity is (or should be) service motivated. It may do all the things you describe, i.e., pay bills, hires, people,etc., but the motivations are totally different and the outcomes are totally different.

And while a business may provide a service, its main goal to to make a profit. Not so with a government - its main goal should be to provide the service.
Just Watching

Cleveland, OH

#23760 Mar 7, 2013
profit wrote:
<quoted text>
Sorry, but a government school or any level of government is not a business. A business is profit motivated. A general governmental entity is (or should be) service motivated. It may do all the things you describe, i.e., pay bills, hires, people,etc., but the motivations are totally different and the outcomes are totally different.
And while a business may provide a service, its main goal to to make a profit. Not so with a government - its main goal should be to provide the service.
Wrongo again, its a business, the motivation does not matter.

It might be a service, but its a business.

It takes money in, it hires people, it expends its resources.

If suddenly they have no income, they are our of business. No one works long for free and no one services places that don't pay their bills for long.

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, looks like a duck, and smells like a duck, its probably a duck.

They are all a business.

And you have sullied your hands with the rest of us.
Truth

Dayton, OH

#23761 Mar 7, 2013
Just Watching wrote:
<quoted text>
Now, now, you have no idea what you are talking about or how things work.
I put together a primer for you to learn from.
Let me know how it goes after you have read up a little.
Not all debts are discharged. The debts discharged vary under each chapter of the Bankruptcy Code. Section 523(a) of the Code specifically excepts various categories of debts from the discharge granted to individual debtors. Therefore, the debtor must still repay those debts after bankruptcy. Congress has determined that these types of debts are not dischargeable for public policy reasons (based either on the nature of the debt or the fact that the debts were incurred due to improper behavior of the debtor, such as the debtor's drunken driving).
There are 19 categories of debt excepted from discharge under chapters 7, 11, and 12. A more limited list of exceptions applies to cases under chapter 13.
Generally speaking, the exceptions to discharge apply automatically if the language prescribed by section 523(a) applies. The most common types of nondischargeable debts are certain types of tax claims, debts not set forth by the debtor on the lists and schedules the debtor must file with the court, debts for spousal or child support or alimony, debts for willful and malicious injuries to person or property, debts to governmental units for fines and penalties, debts for most government funded or guaranteed educational loans or benefit overpayments, debts for personal injury caused by the debtor's operation of a motor vehicle while intoxicated, debts owed to certain tax-advantaged retirement plans, and debts for certain condominium or cooperative housing fees.
The types of debts described in sections 523(a)(2),(4), and (6)(obligations affected by fraud or maliciousness) are not automatically excepted from discharge. Creditors must ask the court to determine that these debts are excepted from discharge. In the absence of an affirmative request by the creditor and the granting of the request by the court, the types of debts set out in sections 523(a)(2),(4), and (6) will be discharged.
A slightly broader discharge of debts is available to a debtor in a chapter 13 case than in a chapter 7 case. Debts dischargeable in a chapter 13, but not in chapter 7, include debts for willful and malicious injury to property, debts incurred to pay non-dischargeable tax obligations, and debts arising from property settlements in divorce or separation proceedings. Although a chapter 13 debtor generally receives a discharge only after completing all payments required by the court-approved (i.e., "confirmed") repayment plan, there are some limited circumstances under which the debtor may request the court to grant a "hardship discharge" even though the debtor has failed to complete plan payments. Such a discharge is available only to a debtor whose failure to complete plan payments is due to circumstances beyond the debtor's control. The scope of a chapter 13 "hardship discharge" is similar to that in a chapter 7 case with regard to the types of debts that are excepted from the discharge. A hardship discharge also is available in chapter 12 if the failure to complete plan payments is due to "circumstances for which the debtor should not justly be held accountable."
Sounds like you know all too well. Which one are you? Either way you have mismanaged your money or lived well beyond you means. Either way you have burdened the courts that use my tax money. You should learn how to manage yourself good thing your household is not run like a business or you would be closed. I do not need to know any of these laws because I live within my means, and pay my bills on time.
Question JW

Milford, OH

#23762 Mar 7, 2013
Schools don't go out of business buddy, if they run out of money the state comes in and helps, schools don't close up. Businesses close up shop but schools don't. Therein lies the difference with your "logic". Now if you and your puppet masters can figure this out maybe Springboro won't become the next Little Miami Schools of Ohio.
Just Watching

Cleveland, OH

#23763 Mar 7, 2013
If one would look at the distribution of scores on the OAA test results over a period of time, one would discover a consistency in scoring in the first year of testing. In third grade roughly the same number of children score about the same in each of the five categories year in and year out.

3rd grade Math averages 2009-2010 through 2011-2012

Greater than 93% correct answers.....10% of the students
85-92.99%,........33% of the students
75-84.99%.........28% of the students
63-74.99%.........19% of the students
Less than 62.99%.........10% of the students

With each passing year a consistently good number of children move down the scale getting fewer and fewer questions correct on the OAA tests.

The culmination is the 8th grade test, which found the May 2012 results with 80% of the students scoring 75% or less.

Each year's test in each grade measures what a student had previously learned in the preceding grades as well as the grade in which they are currently enrolled. A student who consistently masters less than expected amounts of the material will fall further and further behind with each succeeding year.

It is not the children who are failing, but the adults who are all complicit in supporting a system which consistently produces failure in the classroom. Masking it with happy sounding labels does not change the actual results nor the child's preparedness for the next level.

Those adults of which I speak are comprised of the taxpayers and parents who have allowed ourselves to be hoodwinked by semantics. Our trust in the system is laudable, but does not allow us to abrogate our responsibilities in verifying its veracity or effectiveness.

The teachers and the administrators of the school district are also culpable because they know full well the meaning and definition of the semantic games being played with our children's future. It is with them that I am most disappointed both personally and professionally. While not all may have agreed with the system, none that I have seen have had the courage to confront this lunacy.

Mr. Petrey's first tiny steps in addressing this problem are being met with innuendo, smear, and resistance by a small, but vocal group within the community.

Those that support the status quo effectively promote a second class status for our children in the future.

What path do you suggest we take?
Just Watching

Cleveland, OH

#23764 Mar 7, 2013
Question JW wrote:
Schools don't go out of business buddy, if they run out of money the state comes in and helps, schools don't close up. Businesses close up shop but schools don't. Therein lies the difference with your "logic". Now if you and your puppet masters can figure this out maybe Springboro won't become the next Little Miami Schools of Ohio.
By your line of thinking, business don't close either. Instead new management or a new company comes in and takes their old customers by providing better service. The old employees are now employed by the the new company or are forced out to find new employment. Kind of like your scenario.

It's a business.

And a business where over 2000 of its product are failing basic achievement tests.

You work in the education industry, its a business.
Just Watching

Cleveland, OH

#23765 Mar 7, 2013
Truth wrote:
<quoted text>
Sounds like you know all too well. Which one are you? Either way you have mismanaged your money or lived well beyond you means. Either way you have burdened the courts that use my tax money. You should learn how to manage yourself good thing your household is not run like a business or you would be closed. I do not need to know any of these laws because I live within my means, and pay my bills on time.
It was for your edification, and you never know what the future holds.

You may seem healthy today, but inside a cancer may be growing undetected.

One just never knows what tomorrow may bring.
Just Watching

Cleveland, OH

#23766 Mar 7, 2013
Sad But True

Piqua, OH

#23767 Mar 8, 2013
Just Watching wrote:
<quoted text>
It was for your edification, and you never know what the future holds.
You may seem healthy today, but inside a cancer may be growing undetected.
One just never knows what tomorrow may bring.
It is sad, but true, that the public schools teachers union is the rotten cancer of greed for power and money that is killing our children's future. To the teachers union, education is all about power and money, and their priority is fighting against our kids' best interest to get control of both power and money.
How do parents and taxpayers cut this cancer of the teachers union out of our children's classrooms?

Tell me when this thread is updated:

Subscribe Now Add to my Tracker

Add your comments below

Characters left: 4000

Please note by submitting this form you acknowledge that you have read the Terms of Service and the comment you are posting is in compliance with such terms. Be polite. Inappropriate posts may be removed by the moderator. Send us your feedback.

Wedding Discussions

Title Updated Last By Comments
Ill. House Approves Legalizing Same-Sex Civil U... (Dec '10) 53 min KiMare 50,621
Homosexuality and the Bible (Aug '11) 1 hr RevKen 25,324
Berlusconi: Let's legalize gay civil unions 4 hr Jumper The wise 5
ACLU: N. Idaho chapel now a religious corporation 4 hr Jumper The wise 2
Hitching Post wedding chapel sues over gay marr... 4 hr Truth 34
Judge Strikes Down NC Gay Marriage Ban 6 hr The Troll Stopper 84
Christian Pastors Given Choice: Perform Same-Se... 6 hr Frankie Rizzo 210

Wedding People Search

Addresses and phone numbers for FREE