Homosexuality and the Bible

Aug 15, 2011 Full story: www.smh.com.au 30,846

Given the ongoing debate about same-sex marriage, it is time I looked at the two Testaments to remind myself why belief is so hard for me to embrace.

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Since: Aug 09

Location hidden

#27342 Aug 23, 2014
Here is what you wrote in post #27322, above:

"A ss couple is vastly inferior to the complexity of a diverse gender couple, the complimentary sexual union and the procreative ability. Clearly not the same as marriage."

#1 speculation and assumption on your part: That the union that any couple experiences is in any way inferior. What God has put together, let no man put asunder.

Their experience is private and a shared subjective reality. What they experience is their own. You say you have been a minister for decades. If so, you must know that no two marriages, unions, are alike. They are unique in their combination by mutual consent, whether heterosexual or homosexual, and dependent upon the acceptance and trust of each other's individuality.

Your blessing of a couple does not permit you to judge the quality or depth of their union. Though, as a minister, you may choose to withhold your blessing because you do not sanction their union. But, in any case, their union is not either subject to you or dependent upon you, regardless of their acceptance of "your" blessing. So, yes. Your characterization of ANY union as "vastly inferior" is without merit.

Was the union of Bonnie & Clyde "vastly inferior" or were they truly suited for each other? Their union produced no children and they died in an outlaw hail of bullets after wreaking havoc and mayhem wherever they went.

#2 speculation: You attempt to compare the mutual experience of a homosexual couple with the experience of a heterosexual couple. No can do. In fact, again, you judge others as a matter of your own stereotyping, your own subjective reality based upon the icons you hold dear.

#3 You compare by setting forth requirements to define what you present as marriage. You write that such marriage is "clearly" a matter of "complimentary sexual union and the procreative ability."

Ask ANY exclusive couple if their sexual union is complimentary, whether heterosexual or homosexual. They will reply that, to them, of course their union is a complimentary sexual union, because, very simply, it is.

What fits where and how their mutual gratification is caused or conducted is their own personal business. Not yours. As for sexual stimulation of the anus, anyone and any couple can do this, if that is what is wanted or enjoyed. It is simply none of your business.

As for children and procreation, that is a matter of personal capabilities and choice. Some couples have children. Some don't. Some want children and some don't. Some become foster parents. Some adopt. Some combine their children from a previous family to make a new family. The question we should be asking is whether or not the parents, whether heterosexual or homosexual, are capable of teaching personal values, love and trust, integrity, motivation and the full use of imagination and personal incentive with a will to contribute to society. Clearly, whether a couple is homosexual or heterosexual is not either a determinant or a hindrance to the teaching and development of these personal values to their children. These are the foundation of Christian Teaching. Matthew 19:13

You speculate all right, Mr. Kimare. You assume. You judge. You assert and you regularly trespass. But, as yet on these threads, you have not demonstrated the respect for the personal boundaries of others that is necessary for others to believe that your motives are based in the Teachings of Christ.

I don't even know if that is something you want or hope to show.

But, this much is certain. We will sanctify and marry same-sex couples who come to us with sincerity and integrity and an honest commitment to live on behalf of the welfare of each other, in love and trust.

Rev. Ken

“Marriage equality for all”

Since: Jul 07

Illinois

#27343 Aug 23, 2014
KiMare wrote:
<quoted text>
Unvalidated opinion.
Again.
SMile.
Yes, you're right. You have nothing but an un-validated opinion. Thanks for the clarification, Beavis.

Since: Aug 09

Location hidden

#27344 Aug 23, 2014
KiMare wrote:
<quoted text>
Mornin rev.
The brief response is BS. You dumbed down on a lie.
1. A diverse gender relationship IS more complex than a duplicate gender relationship. At every single point of comparison.
...
Smile.
Your reply to my post above is copied and presented. Post #27338.

"A diverse gender relationship ..." ??? Can you not write "heterosexual?" Or are you claiming that there ARE relationships that are NOT heterosexual, but are also not homosexual?

Let us explore the possibility for a moment. Maybe it will be good for you and will help other readers on this thread to be able to understand the motivation for your persistence in reiterating your limited, exclusionary point of view.

You yourself claim to be physically different from the iconic male or female, being a living example of a genetic cross between both sexes. Is it possible that your belief and point of view is skewed because of your own unique, physical-psychological experience?

In your point #1 above, you insist that one relationship is "more complex" than another. I respectfully disagree. In fact no relationship between any two people is ANY MORE complex or LESS complex than any other relationship. Differing, certainly. But, no more or less complex. The interaction between any two individual souls is profound at every level, conscious as well as subconscious in every respect - physical, electro-chemical, mental, psychic, psychological and spiritual.

A simple glance exchanged. The sound of another's voice and the response and reply given. The touch - a single touch. Recall the woman who had been ill for a very long time and who, with a single touch to the hem of Jesus' robe, was instantaneously healed. Not only was her communication and relationship with Jesus infinitely profound, He also knew immediately what had happened. He knew, because he was a fully conscious Human Being. He fully sensed and understood that something of essence had passed between Himself and her.

What was His response? At first, He turned and asked out loud, "Who touched me?" Since they were in a throng of people, His disciples wondered if He was nuts. But, Jesus knew exactly what He meant and immediately recognized the woman, saying, "Woman, your faith has healed you."

Mr. Kimare, you do not understand what happens between two people that have been "put together" by God. You repeatedly read and cite the scripture and then turn right around and attempt to put limitations on what God can and cannot do or has obviously done, even after the scripture specifically provides instruction not to interfere!

What does the Genesis myth passage say? It says, "God saw everything that he had made, and indeed, it was very good."

You can only deny what you think is "inferior."

But, you do not understand.

Yet, you yourself are a living example of a human being who cannot fit the pattern of physical-psychological union that you think others are able to achieve. Furthermore, and yet, you claim to have achieved a complex and personally satisfying union with your mate and even regard your union, your "marriage," to be superior to the union experienced by certain others.

The truth is, Mr. Kimare, that you share your experience with your mate and no one else has or can comprehend what you have with this other person. Your relationship is unique and profound in Being.

So,... Did God put the two of you together?

Rev. Ken

“KiMare'a the Monster Mutation”

Since: Nov 10

Location hidden

#27345 Aug 23, 2014
RevKen wrote:
<quoted text>
Your reply to my post above is copied and presented. Post #27338.
"A diverse gender relationship ..." ??? Can you not write "heterosexual?" Or are you claiming that there ARE relationships that are NOT heterosexual, but are also not homosexual?
Let us explore the possibility for a moment. Maybe it will be good for you and will help other readers on this thread to be able to understand the motivation for your persistence in reiterating your limited, exclusionary point of view.
You yourself claim to be physically different from the iconic male or female, being a living example of a genetic cross between both sexes. Is it possible that your belief and point of view is skewed because of your own unique, physical-psychological experience?
In your point #1 above, you insist that one relationship is "more complex" than another. I re scripture and then turn right around and attempt to put limitations on what God can and cannot do or has obviously done, even after the scripture specifically provides instruction not to interfere!
What does the Genesis myth passage say? It says, "God saw everything that he had made, and indeed, it was very good."
You can only deny what you think is "inferior."
But, you do not understand.
Yet, you yourself are a living example of a human being who cannot fit the pattern of physical-psychological union that you think others are able to achieve. Furthermore, and yet, you claim to have achieved a complex and personally satisfying union with your mate and even regard your union, your "marriage," to be superior to the union experienced by certain others.
The truth is, Mr. Kimare, that you share your experience with your mate and no one else has or can comprehend what you have with this other person. Your relationship is unique and profound in Being.
So,... Did God put the two of you together?
Rev. Ken
Really rev, strawman arguments? You make this so easy by being so obvious.

Let me repeat what you are avoiding and denying. "A diverse gender relationship IS more complex than a duplicate gender relationship. At every single point of comparison."

Why? Because at every point of comparison, a male is distinct from a female. Radically. As a best seller noted, Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus. That was followed by, Gay Relationships, the Collision of Uranus and Uranus.

Without any rational defense, you deny that a diverse gender relationship is not more complex than a duplicate gender relationship. Even more foolish, in defense of marriage diversity you deny gender diversity!

Just to make sure the rest doesn't get lost in your smoke screen, there is also the unmatched complementary sexual union and the blended fruit of marriage that profoundly distinguish marriage from ss couples.

Now rev, you go tell a child that their mom and dad are not distinct from two men and see what they say.

Smile.

“SCOTUS will Rule in June for”

Since: Aug 08

MARRIAGE EQUALITY:-)

#27346 Aug 23, 2014
KiMare wrote:
<quoted text>Why? Because at every point of comparison, a male is distinct from a female. Radically.
So, you believe that ALL women are EXACTLY the same....and ALL men are EXACTLY the same, right? Well, you'd be incredibly WRONG........my wife and I are definitely two women, but we are NOT the exact same in many ways....therefore it would be IMPOSSIBLE to declare that we know EVERYTHING there is to know about each other based solely on the fact that we are of the same gender, because we are DIFFERENT!!!

By the way, using fictitious books to explain the differences is NEARLY as pathetic!!!

“KiMare'a the Monster Mutation”

Since: Nov 10

Location hidden

#27347 Aug 23, 2014
NorCal Native wrote:
<quoted text>
So, you believe that ALL women are EXACTLY the same....and ALL men are EXACTLY the same, right? Well, you'd be incredibly WRONG........my wife and I are definitely two women, but we are NOT the exact same in many ways....therefore it would be IMPOSSIBLE to declare that we know EVERYTHING there is to know about each other based solely on the fact that we are of the same gender, because we are DIFFERENT!!!
By the way, using fictitious books to explain the differences is NEARLY as pathetic!!!
Where did I say that?

One of the evidences of denial is the inability to respond directly and honestly.

You are really sick honey.

Smile.

“SCOTUS will Rule in June for”

Since: Aug 08

MARRIAGE EQUALITY:-)

#27348 Aug 23, 2014
KiMare wrote:
<quoted text>Where did I say that?
One of the evidences of denial is the inability to respond directly and honestly.
You say it EVERY time you make the comment about SS couples being the same....and we're NOT.......and I'm NOT in denial because I am being HONEST and DIRECT...it's you that is DISHONEST with your repeated comments day in and day out!!!

And the only one who is "SICK" is again YOU because you think you know about the relationships of Same-Sex couples and you DON'T!!!

“KiMare'a the Monster Mutation”

Since: Nov 10

Location hidden

#27349 Aug 23, 2014
NorCal Native wrote:
<quoted text>
You say it EVERY time you make the comment about SS couples being the same....and we're NOT.......and I'm NOT in denial because I am being HONEST and DIRECT...it's you that is DISHONEST with your repeated comments day in and day out!!!
And the only one who is "SICK" is again YOU because you think you know about the relationships of Same-Sex couples and you DON'T!!!
Again, where did I say that? There you go again...

See how incurably sick your denial is?

Your relationship is not the same as marriage. That is irrefutable reality.

SMile.
Clemnep

Roanoke, VA

#27350 Aug 23, 2014
KiMare wrote:
<quoted text>
Mornin rev.
The brief response is BS. You dumbed down on a lie.
1. A diverse gender relationship IS more complex than a duplicate gender relationship. At every single point of comparison.
2. Millions of years have evolved the incredibly complex and fine tuned mating behavior and sexual union between males and females. Scientists STILL can find no purpose or cause for homosexuality! Moreover, doctors acknowledge the inherent harm, unhealthiness and demeaning nature of gay sex.
But more significantly, when God separated Eve from Adam, a puzzle of two pieces was created. A man and a woman 'fit' back together in marriage. Adam and Steve do not.
3. Noting the desolate barrenness of ss relationships is not 'requiring' anything. It is another significant fact that cannot be ignored.
The fact is, there is not one iota of speculation or demands in what I wrote. I understand that noting reality creates serious problems for liars. That is your problem.
Just another point of clarification: God put a man and a woman together, not two people of the same gender.
Smile.
You're funny in many ways, first of all you focus on homosexuality as a sickness (thing that is homophobic since a long time and not true) and then you quote Scientists and Adam & Eve in the same text, please tell me that you know Adam and Eve aren't real ? It's a story for childrens. Scientists find the fact that there is something called evolution on the planet where we live. But if you can't understand that you should probably not talk about any complexe subject.

Thanks.
Peace and love for everybody.
Smile
Clemnep

“KiMare'a the Monster Mutation”

Since: Nov 10

Location hidden

#27351 Aug 23, 2014
Clemnep wrote:
<quoted text>
You're funny in many ways, first of all you focus on homosexuality as a sickness (thing that is homophobic since a long time and not true) and then you quote Scientists and Adam & Eve in the same text, please tell me that you know Adam and Eve aren't real ? It's a story for childrens. Scientists find the fact that there is something called evolution on the planet where we live. But if you can't understand that you should probably not talk about any complexe subject.
Thanks.
Peace and love for everybody.
Smile
Clemnep
1. I don't focus on homosexuality as a sickness. Scientists don't know what the cause or purpose of homosexuality is, so you cannot claim it as true or false. I do assert that it is likely a sexual birth defect (Google 'homosexual epigenetic mistake').

2. This is a religious site, so I acknowledge what the Bible says. I am not demanding anyone believe or reject it, I simply acknowledge what it says.

3. I do note that the very first verse of the Bible noted the big bang 3500 years before science did. That the first chapter spoke of genderless life being birthed from the earth.

4. I acknowledge evolution. At its most basic essence, marriage is a cross cultural constraint on evolutionary mating behavior. Ss couples are a defective failure of mating behavior making ss marriage an oxymoron.

Any other complex subjects you would like to discuss?

Smile.
Clemnep

Newport News, VA

#27352 Aug 24, 2014
KiMare wrote:
<quoted text>
1. I don't focus on homosexuality as a sickness. Scientists don't know what the cause or purpose of homosexuality is, so you cannot claim it as true or false. I do assert that it is likely a sexual birth defect (Google 'homosexual epigenetic mistake').
2. This is a religious site, so I acknowledge what the Bible says. I am not demanding anyone believe or reject it, I simply acknowledge what it says.
3. I do note that the very first verse of the Bible noted the big bang 3500 years before science did. That the first chapter spoke of genderless life being birthed from the earth.
4. I acknowledge evolution. At its most basic essence, marriage is a cross cultural constraint on evolutionary mating behavior. Ss couples are a defective failure of mating behavior making ss marriage an oxymoron.
Any other complex subjects you would like to discuss?
Smile.
You keep hidding yourself behind facts, that aren't true.
1. If you wasn't so focus on yourserlf and homophobic you will have learn that it's not genetic because lots of differents situations append and show that somes peoples can choose them sexuality involuntarily. And you can't choose your genetic (I talk about that because I know people in that case, so don't tell me "it's not true)
2.You can't put Religious and scientists together in the same text because they are against each other so choose one or the other.
3.You can note too that the bible don't talk about dinosaur but about "modern" species of creatures.
4.Wrong there is lot of case (from scientists) that show everybody as bi people they only focus on heterosexuality to survive. Every Greek male ,for exemple ,used to have his first sexual relation with a Man. It was seen as a positive way to learn sex. To my mind they is a big diffrence between mariage and make a baby. You should be able to mary the one you love whenever it's a girl or a boy.
I've to go but we will talk more later
Smile
Clemnep

Since: Aug 11

Location hidden

#27353 Aug 24, 2014
KiMare wrote:
<quoted text>
Again, where did I say that? There you go again...
See how incurably sick your denial is?
Your relationship is not the same as marriage. That is irrefutable reality.
SMile.
BS. Why not offer loving, committed gay couples your blessings rather than self-righteous abuse?
Girl22666

Perth, Australia

#27354 Aug 24, 2014
The bible was written by satan, it's obvious if you have read the Old Testament. I mean God even slaughters children.

“KiMare'a the Monster Mutation”

Since: Nov 10

Location hidden

#27355 Aug 24, 2014
Clemnep wrote:
<quoted text>
You keep hidding yourself behind facts, that aren't true.
1. If you wasn't so focus on yourserlf and homophobic you will have learn that it's not genetic because lots of differents situations append and show that somes peoples can choose them sexuality involuntarily. And you can't choose your genetic (I talk about that because I know people in that case, so don't tell me "it's not true)
2.You can't put Religious and scientists together in the same text because they are against each other so choose one or the other.
3.You can note too that the bible don't talk about dinosaur but about "modern" species of creatures.
4.Wrong there is lot of case (from scientists) that show everybody as bi people they only focus on heterosexuality to survive. Every Greek male ,for exemple ,used to have his first sexual relation with a Man. It was seen as a positive way to learn sex. To my mind they is a big diffrence between mariage and make a baby. You should be able to mary the one you love whenever it's a girl or a boy.
I've to go but we will talk more later
Smile
Clemnep
Honey, get back to me when you have read up on epigenetics and homosexuality.

I did put the Bible and science together. You simply can't explain it.

Greek soldiers (certainly not all Greeks) took boys to war as sex slaves. When those boys grew up, they went home and married girls. Are you saying orientation is a choice and pedophilia is acceptable?

Ss couples will only ever be mutually sterile, pointlessly duplicate gender halves of marriage. Clearly inferior.

Smirk.

“KiMare'a the Monster Mutation”

Since: Nov 10

Location hidden

#27356 Aug 24, 2014
Girl22666 wrote:
The bible was written by satan, it's obvious if you have read the Old Testament. I mean God even slaughters children.
Wow, how do you explain the exceptional survival and excellence of the Jewish culture?

Smirk.

Since: Mar 14

Location hidden

#27357 Aug 24, 2014
WasteWater wrote:
<quoted text>BS. Why not offer loving, committed gay couples your blessings rather than self-righteous abuse?
Not even blessings,how about
tolerance...Ex Pastor? WTF!
Brit Bloke

Loulé, Portugal

#27358 Aug 24, 2014
I am sorry guys but the world would be a far better place without religion. You can argue until the cows come home but if everyone just took a humanist view on life and humanity we would not have religion as excuse to persecute others for anything in the name of other people's man made ideas. Religion is just an old man made way to control the masses ( God fearing).
Religion should be confined to history along with idol worship, ghosts and little green men. Many people say they have had a special awakening moment but I put it to you that religious people fall into 3 categories. Indoctrinated by family as children. Had every bad experience ie a loss of a close family member and finally don't want to believe as humans we are just animals that are born and then die for no greater good.
I have no religion I try to keep high personal values for me and my family. I am a law a bidding person who helps others . I don't need religion to tell me what is right and wrong.
Ana

London, UK

#27359 Aug 24, 2014
It's wrong. Repent from that madness.

Since: Aug 11

Location hidden

#27360 Aug 24, 2014
Cali Girl 2014 wrote:
<quoted text>
Not even blessings,how about
tolerance...Ex Pastor? WTF!
Indeed. Spiritually bankrupt for sure.

“KiMare'a the Monster Mutation”

Since: Nov 10

Location hidden

#27361 Aug 24, 2014
Brit Bloke wrote:
I am sorry guys but the world would be a far better place without religion. You can argue until the cows come home but if everyone just took a humanist view on life and humanity we would not have religion as excuse to persecute others for anything in the name of other people's man made ideas. Religion is just an old man made way to control the masses ( God fearing).
Religion should be confined to history along with idol worship, ghosts and little green men. Many people say they have had a special awakening moment but I put it to you that religious people fall into 3 categories. Indoctrinated by family as children. Had every bad experience ie a loss of a close family member and finally don't want to believe as humans we are just animals that are born and then die for no greater good.
I have no religion I try to keep high personal values for me and my family. I am a law a bidding person who helps others . I don't need religion to tell me what is right and wrong.
In my community, there are countless Churches that every week who voluntarily give and serve the community. Moreover, they weekly make the effort to improve themselves. I would venture that the vast majority exceed your claims by a great margin.

Moreover, I rarely see humanist organizations that come close to what Churches do. And most of those are founded by religious organizations.

The only exception I note is Islam which is in competition with atheist humanism as the most destructive, abusive belief systems on earth.

You might not need religion to tell you what is right and wrong, but I'm pointing out that you are an idiot.

SMile.

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