Will Gay Marriage Pit Church Against Church?

[Fa-Foxy]

No Surprise wrote:

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Addressing Jesus as just a 'human', I would guess learning Hebrew in Jesus's time would be more for reading ancient Jewish writings than for speaking it. That is unless the Hebrew used was a mixture of Hebrew and Aramaic both?

Well, since Jesus read from the scriptues in th etemple, I always assumed that he was fluent in Hebrew. I forgot that the Septuagint was Greek adn was in use then. So possibly that is what he was reading and preaching from, and not a Hebrew text ?

(I also read that some time ago they found an ancient sign that when translated read "Jesus Of Nazareth's Carpentry & Discount Furniture Shop. WHOLESALE To The Public".

[Xavier Breath]

No Surprise wrote:

<quoted text>
Addressing Jesus as just a 'human', I would guess learning Hebrew in Jesus's time would be more for reading ancient Jewish writings than for speaking it. That is unless the Hebrew used was a mixture of Hebrew and Aramaic both?

Oh dear god..... do you even know what Aramaic is?

[victoria1]

No Surprise wrote:

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I never meant to say 'religions' were being forced to marry same sex couples. My bad if it came off that way.
I did say religious ministers with the legal authority to marry people were being forced to marry same sex couples. In court houses to avoid problems, they usually had two clerks to marry individuals because in many instances the court person was a minister. So one person would marry opposite sex and one would marry same sex.
But in Saskatchewan I believe the court ordered ministers of the court to marry both where since 2005 a religious minister of a court had the option to refuse same sex marriage on grounds of religious belief.
Sorry for the confusion.

Religious ministers when performing civil marriages on behalf of the government will be required NOT to discriminate. Same-sex marriage is the law of the land, and if they don't like it they can stick to religious ceremonies.

Sounds fair to me.

[Xavier Breath]

Fa-Foxy wrote:

<quoted text>
Well, since Jesus read from the scriptues in th etemple, I always assumed that he was fluent in Hebrew. I forgot that the Septuagint was Greek adn was in use then. So possibly that is what he was reading and preaching from, and not a Hebrew text ?
(I also read that some time ago they found an ancient sign that when translated read "Jesus Of Nazareth's Carpentry & Discount Furniture Shop. WHOLESALE To The Public".

Jews read from the Torah.... the scroll written in Hebrew, not from the Greek Septuagint.

[Fa-Foxy]

Xavier Breath wrote:

<quoted text>
Jews read from the Torah.... the scroll written in Hebrew, not from the Greek Septuagint.

Then He was fluent in at least 3 languages, as I originally supposed, those being Greek, Aramaic, and Hebrew.

[Grandpasmurf952]

Xavier Breath wrote:

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Jews read from the Torah.... the scroll written in Hebrew, not from the Greek Septuagint.

Antisemitic religions that practice replacement theology have a lot of trouble with this one!

As the old priest was heard to say one day, "IF Latin was good enough for Abraham and the prophets, it's good enough for me!"

[Xavier Breath]

Fa-Foxy wrote:

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Then He was fluent in at least 3 languages, as I originally supposed, those being Greek, Aramaic, and Hebrew.

I really do not believe that there is any evidence that Jesus spoke Greek.

[Fa-Foxy]

Xavier Breath wrote:

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I really do not believe that there is any evidence that Jesus spoke Greek.

I believe he must've been fluent in Greek because he lived in teh Roman Empire, conversed with Romans such as Pilate, and the centurion, and the language of the empire was Greek.

I was doubting he was fluent in Hebrew because teh Septuagint, which predates his time, was written in Greek.

[LowellGuy]

dollarsbill wrote:

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You're simply groping.

Oh. I see. That's a brilliant answer to my questions. See, I foolishly expected you to, oh, I don't know, respond to them with some form of explanation. But, I suppose a wholesale dismissal of things for which you have no response prepared is another thing you could do. Good for you, champ.

[No Surprise]

Fa-Foxy wrote:

<quoted text>
Well, since Jesus read from the scriptues in th etemple, I always assumed that he was fluent in Hebrew. I forgot that the Septuagint was Greek adn was in use then. So possibly that is what he was reading and preaching from, and not a Hebrew text ?
(I also read that some time ago they found an ancient sign that when translated read "Jesus Of Nazareth's Carpentry & Discount Furniture Shop. WHOLESALE To The Public".

lol.....^

About four centuries separate the last book of the OT and Matthew.
In 400 years of a people of a specific nationality suffering assimilation as the Israelites did, it's easy to understand how a mother tongue could be lost and or corrupted by other languages.
We have evidence of this in our time. Consider the difference between English spoke and written 400 years ago to how it's written and spoken now. We have Indian tribes that have totally lost their original dialects their ancestors used for who knows how long since England came here in the late 1600s.
I think Greek was the popular tongue and if Hebrew existed, it existed in a corrupt way from the influences of other languages. I am sure that maybe somewhere original Hebrew was around but in small circles of Jews. Since coming out of bondage for the umpteenth time prior to Jesus's birth, the one sure way they would have had a knowledge of original Hebrew writing(not the spoken language)would have come from discovering ancient Jewish writings as we discover them today.

[No Surprise]

Xavier Breath wrote:

<quoted text>Oh dear god..... do you even know what Aramaic is?

Apparently you don't since you asked the question.
The Aramaic language is not the Hebrew language.
And the Hebrew language is not the Aramaic language.
Not withstanding that the two languages evolved around each other, they are distinctly written and spoken differently.
Now if you wish to discuss what is called Hebrew Aramaic Peshitta just say so.
Are you better informed now?

[Fa-Foxy]

No Surprise wrote:

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lol.....^
About four centuries separate the last book of the OT and Matthew.
In 400 years of a people of a specific nationality suffering assimilation as the Israelites did, it's easy to understand how a mother tongue could be lost and or corrupted by other languages.
We have evidence of this in our time. Consider the difference between English spoke and written 400 years ago to how it's written and spoken now. We have Indian tribes that have totally lost their original dialects their ancestors used for who knows how long since England came here in the late 1600s.
I think Greek was the popular tongue and if Hebrew existed, it existed in a corrupt way from the influences of other languages. I am sure that maybe somewhere original Hebrew was around but in small circles of Jews. Since coming out of bondage for the umpteenth time prior to Jesus's birth, the one sure way they would have had a knowledge of original Hebrew writing(not the spoken language)would have come from discovering ancient Jewish writings as we discover them today.

Just consider English as spoken pre-web & post-web. LOL

[No Surprise]

victoria1 wrote:

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Religious ministers when performing civil marriages on behalf of the government will be required NOT to discriminate. Same-sex marriage is the law of the land, and if they don't like it they can stick to religious ceremonies.
Sounds fair to me.

lol...I have nothing against it. Just kind of amusing that the government had been allowing it to take place and it was like they had one of those "light bulb moments", and realized they had set their own discriminatory laws in place after setting non-discrimination laws in place.

[No Surprise]

victoria1 wrote:

<quoted text>
Religious ministers when performing civil marriages on behalf of the government will be required NOT to discriminate. Same-sex marriage is the law of the land, and if they don't like it they can stick to religious ceremonies.
Sounds fair to me.

Not to side track, but as an yank I'm partial to Lethbridge and Waterton lakes park. Don't understand it at all but I loved listening to French being spoken, especially by the older men folk at cafe's who would smile, nodding their heads towards my crowd and debase us in French as an obvious American while laughing lol.
Canada has some really beautiful country.

[No Surprise]

Xavier Breath wrote:

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Jews read from the Torah.... the scroll written in Hebrew, not from the Greek Septuagint.

Can I politely suggest you (and any one else of a curious nature) go to the following informative link of this issue...
http://www.reflectingonjudaism.com/content/wa...

[15th Dalai Lama]

Fa-Foxy wrote:

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I always assumed that Christ was tri-lingual because the language of teh average Jew was Aramaic, and he spoke to Pilate, and the centurion, and other Romans, so he must've spoken Greek, and sicne he preached in teh temple and conversed with Jewish priests, I asumed he also was fluent in Hebrew. But I forgot that the Septuagint was in Greek, which now makes me wonder if he was fluent in Hebrew at all. What do you think ?

The centurions probably spoke Latin so let's add that. He was known to preach in the Temple from the Torah scrolls. Prior to the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls, which are almost exclusevely in Hebrew and Aramaic, no contemporary examples were known to exist.. Since there are several instances of Jesus words being translated from Aramaic, this is most likely his native tongue.

According to John the Evangelist, Pilate ordered the inscription on the Cross read 'Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews' in Hebrew, Greek and Latin.

What we gather from this is that Jesus was indeed well educated which is a bit counterintuitive for a carpenter's son in the first century.

[Fa-Foxy]

15th Dalai Lama wrote:

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The centurions probably spoke Latin so let's add that. He was known to preach in the Temple from the Torah scrolls. Prior to the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls, which are almost exclusevely in Hebrew and Aramaic, no contemporary examples were known to exist.. Since there are several instances of Jesus words being translated from Aramaic, this is most likely his native tongue.
According to John the Evangelist, Pilate ordered the inscription on the Cross read 'Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews' in Hebrew, Greek and Latin.
What we gather from this is that Jesus was indeed well educated which is a bit counterintuitive for a carpenter's son in the first century.

I have read that he was NOT a carpenter as a more accurate translation of the worde describing his occupation is "builder", indicating that he was probably a mason. And he did use rock and stone a lot as analogies, rather than wood, so I think teh people who claim he was a mason rather than a carpenter are probably correct. One uses analogies with things that are familiar, rather than unfamiliar.

[snyper]

No Surprise wrote:

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No disagreement. But to just casually dismiss books attached to a person in the Bible because someone don't like what they said, there is no wisdom there.

Which are those?

[snyper]

No Surprise wrote:

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True. But all of the NT books are copies of copies with unknown original dates and unknown writers of the copies of copies.
So theoretically because there is so much missing evidence of 'who and when' of book authorship, all of the NT could be chucked up to being pseudepigraphic.

Mostly, it is.

[snyper]

OKAY wrote:

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It depended what part of the Roman Empire you were in. Latin came to dominate most of the European parts of the Empire except the Balkans south of modern Romania. Greek dominated in the Balkans and much of the Middle East, where Aramaic was also widespread and important. In Egypt Greek and Coptic were dominant and North Africa there was a mixture of Latin, Greek, Punic and Berber. In Britain it was a mixture of Latin and Brythonic (the ancestor of Welsh).
Latin was the official and imperial language, although Greek was used officially too, especially in the East.
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_language_did_t...

The official language of Rome, spoken by the patricians and ruling class, was Classical Greek. Latin was referred to as "the vulgar tongue".

Yeshua spoke the Galilean dialect of Hebrew-Aramaic, was a master of classical Hebrew, and was conversant in Koine, the lingua franca of the Eastern Empire.

Classical Hebrew was almost a dead language, even among religious types. Most only knew memorized passages, much like Roman Catholics knew Latin before Vatican II.

Consider this passage ...

Mark 15:33-35

33 At noon, darkness came over the whole land until three in the afternoon. 34 And at three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice,“Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?”(which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”).

35 When some of those standing near heard this, they said,“Listen, he’s calling Elijah.”

The phrase “Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?” is the opening phrase of Psalm 22 ... in classical HEBREW.